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Steve Ison

7/5/2008 3:37:05 PM ---- Updated 7/5/2008 3:51:47 PM

Life After Death
I've just read JP Sharpes blog about his dream song with his guide about reincarnation and it got me thinking..
This medium told me i developed alot of creative energy over many lives-tho i'd never actually been a musician before.She said i'd had a life as a slave too-thats why i'm so anti people having any authority over me.According to my Uncle (who really believes in it too)-we had a life together as monks in a monastery-and again according to the medium- i had a past life as an ascetic in India.Both of those last 2 past lives contribute to the fact i find it very easy and comfortable spending alot of time by myself..
I believe in reincarnation intuitvely pretty well almost 100%-whether i want to or not really..

I say that,'cos a part of me thinks it'd be alot better if you just died and you ceased to be totally-like a full on aetheist would believe..No being faced with the consequences of things you've done wrong,no more coming back to earth to learn difficult n painful lessons etc

Instant peace..

If you became nothing you wouldn't even know about it anyway-so if you believe there's no afterlife there's no reason to fear death(i mean for yourself-obviously you might be worried about how your death would affect those you left behind)

The most difficult belief i think would be that of the fundamentalist Christian who lives a life tortured by whether they're gonna be saved to go to heaven or condemned to an afterlife in an interminable firey hell with satan..

Its either one...........or the other

Try as i can i can't understand that idea at all...

The infinite complexities,3D colours,beauty,sadness,creativity,tragedy,joy and existential pain of being a human being reduced and compressed into a black and white still frame

strange...

Stranger still that i've more compassion in my little finger than the fundamentalist God has in his entire universe..

Could you judge and condemn someone to an eternity of unbearable suffering in the paedophilic monsterous hands of uncle satan-without giving them the opportunity to learn from their transgressions-for making the mistakes as a human being we all do?

No?

me neither..

In truth that has to be the strangest of beliefs..











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Kevin White

7/5/2008 4:03:55 PM ---- Updated 7/5/2008 4:05:22 PM


I believe all things spiritual are a simple reflection of the human animal's unique ability to think "around" things, and extrapolate accordingly. It's our brain at play, dealing with our knowledge of death; and the fact we just don't like the concept. Put simply, "We make the shit up to be more happy".

There is, and has never been, any concrete evidence of the supernatural. It doesn't exist. It's all "ordinary and natural".

I would never presume to say never ... for I don't know everything, but there has been no evidence to to support the concept.

And faith? Well, I also think faith is uniquely human. It runs stronger in gamblers than most, but it's basically the same thing ... banking on winning the unknown.

All life on this planet shares the same DNA ... separated by the arrangement triggered via the reproduction mechanism of the parent creating the offspring.

We're merely a unique form of "earth life" ... and when the next comet arrives, there will be no God swatting it out of the cosmos for us.

Grass has no supernatural, nor do we.

Kev-


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The Man With No Band

7/5/2008 6:01:50 PM


Very interesting post Steve ! ... and since today it seems we are all admitting to our madness ... I shall take a stab at expounding my beliefs ...
I'm not even sure how to communicate this into words, such as others on here that can explain things so eloquently, so I hope to convey this in the way it is intended ...
I do not believe in a "Heaven or Hell" in the literal sense that was taught to me in my youth ... but I do believe that we are all a part of a grand design and everything and everyone is connected. (The following Statements are just my opinion and just like reality they could change at any moment) ...
I do not believe we ever die ... although we cease to exist in human form (sort of,explanation later) ...We are units of energy, as is all around us ...
You cannot kill energy ...
If you run water into a glass and then freeze it into a solid and then melt it back into a liquid and then evaporated it into the air in a gas ... it still exist ...
So physically, all our ancestors and all that came before have never left ... they are in the rain, they are in the earth, they are in the sprouting flower ... they still exist ... so can reincarnation occur ? ... I think it does constantly with our physical being or energy ... What about our Spiritual being ? ... Does the spirit stay with the solid ? ... I think yes and no ... just as that oxygen, that was apart of water, seperates and might come back as water again does not guarantee that formation will occur ... it may mix with other elements and come back as something quite different ... and yet it is still there ...

Science has yet to explain the spirit ... so it does not recognize it ... IMO it's because it is so far above science that Science has not developed the tools to explain it ... but it is there ... and it is energy

... Balance is an intricate part of how it all works ... there is good energy and bad energy ... What ? that makes no sense ... if you need bad energy, is bad energy not then therefore good energy ? ... Now you are prepared ... :)

I believe that all the human qualities that we call "good or positive" (truth, Love etc. etc.) are an energy that has very strong attractions to it's side of the energy field.
I also believe all the human qualities that we call "bad or negative" (deceit, Hate etc. etc.) are an energy that has very strong attractions to it's own side of the energy field.

I believe that each can build to tremendous proportions ... Examples:
(Good) A team of players in a game are over matched in every way .. size, strength, abilities, etc. and are given no chance to win a game and yet if that group of players is in tune with each other and they feel they can win, the collective Positive energy can propel them to play better, be stronger, and have more ability than they ever had, and they can pull off the upset and win the game.

(Bad) The stock market crash here in the U.S. in 1929 ... the negative energy associated with fear, greed lies and deceit, sent a whole country into turmoil and economic depression for years.. caused by the effects of one massive negative day.

I believe if we die with more negative energy in us, that most of us helps tilt the world into a negative place ... Where as I believe if we die with more positive energy in us, that most of us helps tilt the world into a positive place ...
We already know that energy cannot die ... so it has to go someplace correct ?

I believe that in the end .... the world will either be destroyed by the gathering of all this negative energy (not killed mind you, but rather transformed into something that will not sustain animal or plant life)(AKA ...Hell) ... or it will evolve into a grander place, by the gathering of all this positive energy
(again transformed into something that will not sustain animal or plant life but will sustain our spiritual energy in a grand way. (AKA ...Heaven)

Well that touches on the basis of my current beliefs in the best way I know how to explain it ... What a Cracka Huh ?

Sam


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7/6/2008 1:54:06 AM


There is a mysterious place where a song sings itself into ones heart making itself manifest by way a structured form. I always thought we evolved in much the same way. We, who by all practical accounts ought to have created ourselves extinct by now by our own self destructive agendas and Frankenstein Monsters set loose about the world in our glorious honor have by some miracle remained in the evolutionary scheme of things... and that is a mystery by all accounts.

There is something at play... the closest adjective within my language that I can describe it as is magic, a divine synchronicity, and all we have is to gamble with such things... some win, many lose... but we are all here gambling, even those that seemingly play it safe ... exposing ourselves bit by bit, all having experienced a part and portion of this amazing wonder while writing a song... a moment that transcended our heroes... or worldly aspirations ... we all wrote at least one song that made us feel the eternity of our own soul if for even just one moment and we were fortunate enough to capture it and share it with each other. If we are in fact all magicians and gamblers at play... then we, my iac friends, are the manifestation of life beyond what we understand as solid matter. A brilliant and diverse symphony at play within each of us... and each of us a note within. I do not and can not believe this phenomenal thing called life is but a vain play, and if indeed that is the case, for who's entertainment was it sung into existence ? Perhaps we are the universe's need to whack off... but I do not believe that, and will not... music has never allowed me to.

Steve, there is a joy you've tapped into and every time I listen to your magic I feel less lonely and the world seems a more inviting place to visit.


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Conversation Suicide

7/6/2008 2:47:05 AM ---- Updated 7/6/2008 2:48:19 AM


Thank you Steve, Sam, Kevin and Crack*a*jack*crow for giving me some VERY deep thoughts about humanity, spirtuality, eastern philosophy and reincarnation for the day.

I see many folk of like mind on this site. Seems like "politics" is the only subject that can cause MAJOR contention.

Keep pursuing that which gives you peace and doesn't harm others. -phlegm


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Richard Scotti

7/6/2008 6:31:54 AM


I believe in karma and reincarnation. I do not believe in heaven and hell but there are metaphors for those places. If you have a bad karma when you die you will be reincarnated into a another person who will experience life as kind of a "hell on earth". Conversely, if you have agood karma when you die you will be rewarded in your next life by being in a very good situation. I also believe that if you are really a bad person you lose your soul and you don't move on to a next life. Read "On God"
which is an interview with Normal Mailer made into a book. Mailer attempts to answer the unanswered questions of our time. You may not always agree with him but it's really engossing and enagaging. It could change the way you see the world.


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fly on the wall

7/6/2008 7:34:20 AM


It's hard to think about life after death if you believe that every event within the continuum of history is permanent, still intact and alive. However I do believe there is some realm outside of life that allows all the things that should've happened in life to happen. A parallel history of all the possibilities.


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the kozy king

7/6/2008 8:14:35 AM



"The most difficult belief i think would be that of the fundamentalist Christian who lives a life tortured by whether they're gonna be saved to go to heaven or condemned to an afterlife in an interminable firey hell with satan.."

This hurts, Steve, because the true Christian belief is that access to heaven is absolutely FREE and absolutely GUARANTEED. God came to earth (as Christ) in order to pay the full price for mankind. Where's the torture in that? "While we we yet sinners, Christ died for us."

Also: "Stranger still that I've more compassion in my little finger than the fundamentalist God has in his entire universe. Could you judge and condemn someone to an eternity of unbearable suffering in the paedophilic monsterous hands of uncle satan-without giving them the opportunity to learn from their transgressions-for making the mistakes as a human being we all do?"

Steve, it is a common misconception that God choses to send people to hell. The truth (according to christians) is that all people have rejected God and have chosen hell for themselves. God, in His compassion, offers a way of salvation from hell that is absolutely FREE and absolutely GUARANTEED. Those that don't want to rely on God will be allowed to rely on themselves (as they have chosen) and will create hell for themselves just as we do here on earth whenever God slackens His restraints (in order to show us what we're really like).

I can't argue the highly creative points of view that are offered whenever these discussions come up, because I don't know anything about them.

But please consider possible inaccuracies when criticizing my faith. No bad vibes here with me, folks, I realize you are all sensitive and caring people. I was going to ignore this blog but my wife suggested it was perhaps my duty to speak up so I did.

Peace, love, understanding,

Terry


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7/6/2008 9:16:58 AM


Very interesting stuff but I would love to hear all of you write your feelings into songs because this blog will not last long but your songs will last forever.


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satch

7/6/2008 9:25:48 AM


Thanks Steve - and others - for such brave and thoughtful self-expression, eloquently put.

Here's a thought - ask yourself this "What is the opposite of life?" Many people say "death" - but that's wrong - the opposite of "death" is "birth", not "life". Life has no opposite, it is the only thing we know that has no opposite, and that is simply because it is eternal. We are born into physicality and we die out of physicality - but life exists before and after physicality.

Some people simply know this to be true - other people cannot accept this because they are stuck in the mind, in rationale, in logic. That's okay, they are in for a most pleasant surprise when they "die" and find out that they are still alive :)


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The Man With No Band

7/6/2008 10:23:59 AM ---- Updated 7/6/2008 1:32:47 PM


Satch .... Very well said ... and in such very few words too .... wish I could do that....


ooops Sorry Terry ... Here is the questions back .... after I posted them I thought I might have put you on the spot so I took it down before your answer ....

Terry .... I respect you and everyone else for their beliefs .... and I do not belittle anyone for their beliefs .... but I would like to get your thoughts on this .... According to Christian beliefs, there is only one way into the Kingdom of Heaven and that is through Jesus Christ .... So my questions are as follows ....
What happened to all the people before the man made religion of Christianity was born ? If, as you say God does not condemn people to Hell, then who decided their fate (Heaven or Hell) before Christianity ? Even after Christ died there were millions of people that had never heard the word of Christ, so were they all condemned to Hell ? Even today, I have a hard time believing that a child born into a Budhist family, or any other man made religion for that matter, that never hears the words of Christ are simply denied access to Heaven ... What makes a Christian believe that they have the sole monopoly of the Kingdom of Heaven ? Why would some folks get FREE and GUARANTEED access, and others not ? That makes little if no sense to me at all.


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the kozy king

7/6/2008 12:20:19 PM



Good questions Sam. These questions touch on the most controversial of doctrines and christians themselves can't agree. I'm gonna give you the long argument and then give you the short argument at the end. If you lose patience just skip to the end. OK?

But basically --

Before Christianity there was the Jewish faith which starts with "in the beginning God made the heavens and the earth" and then follows though with a few thousand years of history in the books from Genesis to Malachi. Then the story of Jesus unfolds as well as the birth of the christian church and the prophesies for the end of this world and the beginning of the next.

When God is referred to in the beginning of the bible He uses the term "god" just as you would for any god -- "a god" -- nothing definite. As the story progresses God gives His real name to Moses. More names, all explicit, define God's qualities throughout the "old testament". Also symbolism, ceremony, historic events and predictive prophesies all appear with greater and greater frequency to represent God's plan to save his people by sacrificing Himself. There is a lifetime of study here but it's all the same thing -- people are saved through God's grace before, during and after Christ's time on earth. The ancient Hebrews understood this through the words of their prophets who were under the influence of God's spirit. Christians, likewise, (supposedly) understand the events of Christ's life, as well as the words of the prophets, through the same spirit.

So, the bible is a systematic revelation of God that must be understood in its entirety and not just in fragments.

How does this God "choose" who is given the spirit to understand (and who isn't)? This is an extremely advanced doctrine which would be pointless to discuss here. I wlll e-mail exhaustively with you privately if you wish. Anyone who wishes to discuss this tricky subject can e-mail me at tornblom@sasktel.net.

OK! NOW THE SHORT ANSWER:

First, as I said before, all people are doomed by their own nature and not by God's selection. God is not the author of evil.

Secondly, you will never understand unless you accept God's sovereignty over all things to do as he pleases without ever making a mistake. God is not the author of evil.

Thirdly, we have every reason to believe that those who die in infancy without ever coming to an age of understanding are always among those saved as God does not require anything further of them than their birth. God is not the author of evil.

Fourthly, I have absolutely no idea of why God would choose one person for salvation and not another. But I can't deny His right to control His own creation. And my faith says He's always right whether anyone thinks so or not. God is not the author of evil.

There is a lot of debating to do here, and I admit that I wish I didn't have to do it, but I wlll answer everyone who contacts me privately for in depth discussion.

Promise.

TT


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Kevin White

7/6/2008 1:26:08 PM ---- Updated 7/6/2008 2:05:40 PM


For those questioning why an answer was given to no apparent question, the query was essentially:

If heaven can only be achieved through Judaic based religions (Jews, Muslim, Christianity ... through the path of Christ), are the other billions of people of other faiths simply fucked?

I'll take it one step further:

Where was God in the 20 billion years before humans arose to think him up? Will God still be there when we are inevitably not?

Bear in mind, at one point in the universe, there was no matter ... and when matter first formed ... all there was was essentially hydrogen, helium and lithium, the basic simple elements.

Between 3 billion to 13 billion years following the big bang, stars formed from hydrogen, burned it all up and died. The stars that died are responsible for ALL the heavier elements in the universe which were ejected into the cosmos upon their death ... including carbon, the essential ingredient for life ... us.

We are literally born of stardust ... but so is grass, bacteria ... dinosaurs etc ...

If God created everything, God questionably sure went through a lot of experimentation before winding up at us ... which causes me to wonder exactly who created whom ... and are we simply a function of the chain reaction started 20 billion or so years back?

And just WTF took God so long to get to humans when God is God for Christ's sake? Why create dinosaurs just to have them obliterated? Why the several mass extinctions/die offs along? Wrong faiths? Oops, God's mistake, hit the reset button and start over? If we are in fact created in his likeness ... what ... no mirrors in heaven until just a few tens of thousands of years back?

The most reasonable explanation is that it's just the universe acting as natural universe would. We're part of an explanable natural chain of events, which eventually led to the human animal. Nothing really more than natural evolution creating a brain that can question itself ... and has a natural ability deal w/ the abstract ... which ironically allows us both to create the abstract concept of the supernatural, and then study and question it.

Modern "God Systems" like "Thor, the God of Thunder!!!", and those we quaintly dismiss as "MYTHOLOGY" is a remnant of our early lack of understanding ... and our need to explain natural phenomena, like thunder/lighting, and dealing w/ the finality of death. Modern belief systems exist today predictably because they were more "compact and portable" (you mean I can believe in just ONE God vs 340?? Gimme THAT one, it's MUCH easier to remember) than "ancient" belief systems. Today's belief systems will likely inevitably move on to the mythology section of the library as future systems replace them.

I believe humans, given broader education and/or not slip sliding backwards into survival mode, will eventually "evolve" beyond requiring concepts of God. The evolution is happening already, as more and more people abandon all religious belief systems worldwide. As a whole, "non-belief" may be the world's largest religion.

The concept of God, all religious belief, is likely best explained as a human emotional crutch ... yet, that's in no way saying there isn't a need for crutches when they are needed. I believe people need God equivalents to get by ... for life is hard.

I also believe, since no one really knows what's what ... that "non-belief" also requires faith; for one will not be certain of anything until one is dead.

And the dead aren't revealing the secret, no matter what those who claim they can talk to them say ...

Best,

Kev-




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The Man With No Band

7/6/2008 2:00:16 PM ---- Updated 7/6/2008 2:07:59 PM


Terry ... I could buy your explanation if you told me God himself revealed these things to you ... but I would venture to guess that you were taught these things by way of human teachings ... from books written by humans themselves ... and humans that had something to gain by the creation of a religion at that ... I believe you are right about one thing ... God does not create evil ... Humans do though and as a fellow human, I can not understand why anyone would not question there faith, considered it was all created by the minds of men ... and probably evil men at that ...


Hey Kevin ... thanks for getting that message up and not leave Terry looking like he was talking to thin air ... :)

Your statement that ..."Stars formed from hydrogen, burned it all up and died. The stars that died are responsible for ALL the heavier elements in the universe which were ejected into the cosmos upon their death ... including carbon, the essential ingredient for life ... us."

That gets back to what I was saying in that ... the stars didn't die ... they are still here ... just reformed into new life ... everything is alive in my IMHO ... and we are all one in the same ... were just recyclable matter ... and both positive and negative energy flow through us all ..


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Kevin White

7/6/2008 2:17:14 PM ---- Updated 7/6/2008 2:24:59 PM


Agreed that we are creations of the natural universe Sam, and when we die ... we obviously return the elemental makings of our birth back to the natural universe.

I do not believe though, that we retain the ability of self consciousness and/or any lasting personality. Those constructs are unique to our brains; head injuries or degenerative brain disease proves that they're organic human traits. There's no "spiritual" to it. Damaged brain=compromised.

When we die, who we were dies with us. It's what we've done while alive that carries forward.


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SILVERWOODSTUDIO

7/6/2008 2:43:33 PM


thanks Steve------------------- for lifting the bar

I have read and fondled each word here---and nodded sagely, and squinted at times, I respect all the views expressed and do not wish to change anyones beliefs.

If I wished to control mankind through thought,
I would look for mans greatest fear,
and claim to be able to control this fear
through the actions of an omnipotent being

The obvious fear which has no master is death!

I would claim to be able to control or stave off death

--even give everlasting life!!

Who could resist?


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kranky king

7/6/2008 2:56:57 PM



It's obvious that kozy can't think for himself and must blindly follow some archaic system that doesn't explain anything.

He should leave the running of the universe to you guys.


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Steve April

7/6/2008 3:43:01 PM


Kudos to everyone...

Talking about matters like this, a bit like Plato's parable of the cave. Cavedwellers found it hard to believe there is a world outside the cave...




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Kevin White

7/6/2008 5:10:30 PM ---- Updated 7/6/2008 5:12:10 PM


Rob - In my youth, I callously referred to organized religion as "spiritual government".

I no longer think that way. I believe all beliefs to be intimate and personal ... to each person's need, for themselves.

I speak for no other but myself, as I've come to terms w/ my own existence. I comment as I see the physicality of the universe presented, but claim no truth in the matter. I realize I could be totally wrong. I just don't think so.

Kozy/Kranky/Terry ... plz read immediately above. I make no assertions about running the universe, bud. I'm a blade of grass, not God. I trust you to your own faith. In the end, it matters not. We all end up where we're going.

The truth of the matter, unknown still, is impervious to belief or opinion.

Best,

Kev-


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Kevin White

7/6/2008 6:12:06 PM ---- Updated 7/6/2008 6:15:27 PM


I forgot to add ...

What I value most from us human folk is our ability to think of shit nothing on the planet has ever been able to consider up until we did it. Art is similar to science, but it's not quite scientific ... as it's all hunch ... which, coincidently, is where science starts ... but must subsequently validate.

For instance ...

Monkeys can fly? I mean ... outside of the Wizard of Oz? Yet ... look at us!! I was the early guy off the roof breaking his neck doing the trial and error "wings" experiment. I'm glad I got reincarnated (kidding).

We're a formidable life form .... us humans ... hence our natural viral abilities to expand our numbers beyond reasonable planetary capacity ... and sorry ... I digressed beyond the scope of this thread w/ my ramblings ... but this stuff has weighed and preyed on me my whole life ... so I've devoted some think time to it.

Back on topic ...

Current scientific "inclination" (at a certain level, it's all mere guess until proven otherwise) boils matter down to vibrating strings (string theory) at the lowest level ...

I like that.

I've always felt spaghetti solves everything.

Okay ... maybe that wasn't quite back on topic ...


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The Man With No Band

7/6/2008 7:02:54 PM


I agree totally with Kevin's statement ...

"I speak for no other but myself, as I've come to terms w/ my own existence. I comment as I see the physicality of the universe presented, but claim no truth in the matter. I realize I could be totally wrong. I just don't think so."

.. and about man's ability to think ... We all have our own views, which is pretty awesome in my book ... It shows how much there is to learn ...
Terry believes in the Christian Scriptures ...
Kevin believes there is no God and no spiritual life ... (if I read his words correctly)
I believe in a God, but a far different God than what the __scriptures teach, and I also believe in the spirit but also in a different way than most ...

It does not mean that I am right, nor does it mean that I am not interested in what others have to say ... I believe the biggest limitation man puts upon himself is to shut things out and believe in anything without the possibility that something new might come to light ...

There is a lot more out there to learn than has ever come to light before ...
and it might just be in that plate of spaghetti ... :)


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Talkie Toaster

7/6/2008 7:15:32 PM


Toast goes GREAT with spaghetti!


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Conversation Suicide

7/6/2008 7:27:23 PM ---- Updated 7/6/2008 7:27:23 PM



mmmm... yummy -- especially garlic/parmesian toast with butter. YUM!

Now that's PROOF that there's some type of supreme being, and some sort of GREAT DANCE in the afterlife.... someday....

A tasty meal like that on this hunk of rock? Surely there's even MORE lovely things out there when we step off this mortal coil ! -phlegm


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Roach up your nose

7/6/2008 8:37:13 PM


It's great! ~ there isn't any shit in heaven. 0:-)


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LyinDan

7/6/2008 8:50:57 PM


All of this is all very well.

Some of you know things that can't be known. At least as well as I do. :P

Maybe all of you.


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satch

7/7/2008 1:52:21 AM


Pahaha - there is one innate flaw in the "logic" of the scientifically-based believers, which is that science is an evolving system - so, for example, if Kev was born some time in the distant past, he would have believed the science of the time which stated that the Earth was flat! If he had been born a mere 200 years ago, he would have believed the science of the time which stated that man could never fly in machines in the sky... or communicate down wires... or watch television... or use x-rays to see beneath the human skin... or create vaccines to combat mortal diseases... and on and on...

Science is the most humanly-created of all systems, being based on pure human logic, the mind creating constructs and "proving" them using similar human-created constructs, mathematics, physics, chemistry... all human constructs given empirical status by the human minds that created them...

Science only knows - and can only know - what it has proven (in its way) so far. Science does not know what it does not know - so to believe in science above any other form of human concept is to limit yourself completely to the non-creative world. Kev is the ultimate enigma, in that he claims to believe purely in the scientific process and knowledge, physicality only, and yet he persists in creating songs and musically expressing ideas which come from a place and a space that cannot be scientifically expressed or explained. Explain inspiration? Scientifically.


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Kevin White

7/7/2008 6:39:21 AM ---- Updated 7/7/2008 6:43:12 AM


Well, the fatal flaw to that point, Satch, is that science only bears minor relevance to the matter.

It's not a belief in science under discussion. Science is tangental to the issue.

It's a belief in the natural world vs supernatural world.

The belief that only the natural ... the here and now ... exists and the supernatural doesn't, is further proven as science advances it's knowledge base, but science is merely human study of the nature of the physical universe. One can then choose to believe or not believe what scientists say they've proven.

Ben Franklin was a non-believer LONG before science made the discoveries since. He believed in the natural world being the only world, and experimented with it accordingly. Non-belief in the supernatural isn't a new concept created by science.

Whether planes fly or the world is flat is irrelevant to the issue of God. The capabilities arose as a byproduct of man's continued study of the nature of the physical world around him. God didn't give man wings ... man figured out how ... because in the physical world, he could.

So it's not a belief in science, and what it continues to add to human's information pool about reality.

It a belief in reality, and a native suspicion that that's all there is to the universe.

That's a timeless concept, and the underlying basis for all scientific questioning.

Ongoing studies of the truth of things simply continue to strongly suggest that there is no unreal, only real. Science may eventually find a God too ... who knows ... but I don't think so.

I think we're all we've got ...

... and birds and whales sing too ...

:-D

Best,

Kev-


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satch

7/7/2008 10:11:57 AM


Yo Kev - science has proven that atoms and molecules exist, that neutrons exist, that quarks and anti-matter exist too. Is that all part of the natural world? And if so, how was "reality" before such things were even talked about, let alone proven?

My points are that this "reality" that you so believe in, is a changing and evolving thing... that science discovers and uncovers more of our "reality" all the time... and that the "we" that, according to you, is all we've got, is actually mostly space on a molecular level, that your physical world is a scientifically-proven illusion!

And the birds and the whales appear to us to sing, and I too love the sounds that they make. But in fact, they are communicating, that is, talking to each other, not singing - it is merely our perception that they are singing :)


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Hop On Pop

7/7/2008 10:32:29 AM


So many questions... none of which can be answered by any of us.

I tell my kids that all religions are just "different ways people have of talking to God." As far as an afterlife or some form of reincarnation, I am hoping that what we have now is not the End. I really don't think that it is.

Think about it: I am a firm believer in science, but even the most brilliant scientists, biologists, and philosophers cannot explain the mystery of consciousness. Just how is it that we are AWARE? And why?!?!?

Yes, it is the great mystery, which is what leads me to believe that there has to be something more. No matter what you and your chosen holy book has decided to call it.

It leads me back again to one of my favorite quotes.
From the mouth of the greatest mind of the 20th century:
"God does not play dice with the Universe."
-Albert Einstein


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qelizabeth

7/7/2008 11:26:44 AM


This little light of mine, I'm gonna let it shine.


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Kevin White

7/7/2008 11:37:10 AM ---- Updated 7/7/2008 11:40:04 AM


Jeff -

Einstein was agnostic ... he didn't believe in God, although he feigned belief to the public because of the times and made many popular statements referencing "God" (including the oft quoted above) ... but in his personal writings, he expressed serious doubts.

In fact, all he's saying above is that there is a natural order.

Einstein's own private words and letters on God:

"I get hundreds and hundreds of letters but seldom one so interesting as yours. I believe that your opinions about our society are quite reasonable.

It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. "

"From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.... I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of nature and of our being."

"I do not believe in immortality of the individual, and I consider ethics to be an exclusively human concern with no superhuman authority behind it."

Source (and there is extensive analysis out there): Einstein the agnostic

The "greatest mind of the 20th centery" believed only in the natural universe we know, and nothing beyond it.

Best,

Kev-


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Hop On Pop

7/7/2008 11:56:54 AM ---- Updated 7/7/2008 12:02:06 PM


So be it.
So please, explain the existence of consciousness.
And how did this natural order come into being?

Please, also understand, that I am by no means an evangelical anything. Nor, do i necessarily believe in an interventionist God, who watches over us all. But I am frequenly baffled by all that I see, and how and why it is all here.

I am also a staunch evolutionist, and believer in all things emperical.
But emperical data only stretches so far. And at that point you must know that there is something else. No matter what you choose to call it.

And I am not pointing to the Bible, the Torah, the Koran, the writings of B'hullah, or any other sacred text to prove my point. I am instead, pointing to the very same evidence as all the scientists, or rather the lack therof.

No matter what you think, no matter what you call it... even all scientists believe in God. They just call it by another name: "The Natural Order". And their dogma is that of the sacred text of Physics.

Whatever you choose to believe, I will not begrudge you your beliefs.

As to me, and my beliefs: all I can do is say "thank you", whether I am heard or not.


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Kevin White

7/7/2008 12:01:26 PM ---- Updated 7/7/2008 1:11:36 PM


Satch ... it doesn't matter if quarks or atoms or strings were discovered or talked about.

There is still VASTLY more to discover in the natural world, and science will go on exploring and discovering the physical realm ... the natural universe ... because that's what science does.

Discovery doesn't make anything exist ... because what exists already existed whether discovered or not. Science is merely the organized process of discovery.

Once unveiled though, said knowledge is added to our understanding of the nature of the universe ... additional pieces to the natural puzzle. I'm not made up of discoveries at the molecular level. The molecular level was there making me up already ... awaiting discovery.

It's not so much reality, as real ... what is physical, natural and present versus what is make believe or unreal. It doesn't become reality through discovery. It doesn't change ... for natural is/was and will always be what it is, was and will be. It exists as real outside of whether we currently know about it or not.

I know too many people for whom "make believe" is their personal "reality" to get too deep into the vague syntax of that term.

Science explores what is ... there already.

When I say "we're all we've got", I mean that the natural universe we study and see is probably all there is ... is all ... there very likely is no spiritual, no supernatural ... no Gods or Ghosts ... or other smoky manifestations of the active, superstitious mind.

And are you implying humans aren't communicating when singing or playing music? How is that so different from birds and whales, and more to the point ... how do you know?

:-D

Kev-




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Kevin White

7/7/2008 1:06:26 PM ---- Updated 7/7/2008 1:07:18 PM


Your consciousness, Jeff, is a gift of natural evolution ... like wings on a bird.

Why do birds have wings? So they can fly.

Why do we have brains? So we can think.

It's our special talent ... a natural evolutionary genetic mutational knack.

How the natural order came into being is still under exploration ... who knows if it will ever be appropriately explained?

We still know very little, but we also know a LOT more than we did. As I said above, maybe someday science will find "God" ... but I don't believe so. I think all they'll find is more order in the nature of things.

btw ... most studies put the number of scientists who believe in "God" at about 40% ... but such studies are considered flawed, for the questions themselves don't account for the myriad interpretations individuals define "God" as ...

... like you ... most all reject a "personal" God; what you labeled "interventionist" God ... yet, there are scientists whose dogma in the sacred text of Physics leads them to study it because they are in search of proof for the "greater" God ... the man behind the curtain ... the one who created the order of the universe ... more like Sam's interpretation.

So far, all that's been found is the natural universe ... but I guess we'll see, right?

Best,

Kev-


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satch

7/7/2008 1:14:31 PM


Riiiight Kev, so, you say "It's not so much reality, as real ... what is physical, natural and present versus what is make believe or unreal. It doesn't become reality through discovery. It doesn't change ... for natural is/was and will always be what it is, was and will be. It exists as real outside of whether we currently know about it or not."

I can see that things are the same whether or not we understand them, whether or not we have scientifically proven them. The point I am trying to get you to see is that the thing that you call "reality" is just as conceptual as anything else! The way we see and exist in the physical world changes and evolves as our understanding of that physical world changes...

But you did not answer my point that the physical world is a scientifically-proven illusion - according to molecular physics, we are mostly comprised of empty space - nothing is solid, it is an illusion! All, absolutely everything physical, is merely vibration and space.

And of course music is communication (except for certain mainstream artists who shall remain nameless for the sake of sanity), probably far more effective than words at evoking a response in receptive humans, but the birds and the whales are not making music, they are talking to each other, it's just music to our ears!


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Kevin White

7/7/2008 1:50:52 PM


Satch ... you and I must share a bottle of wine someday ... and have this long discussion.

We've just entered the philosophical realm of our program, questioning what is "real" and what is "illusion" ...

I'll offer that I'm substantial and real ... and when I sing, I'm confident that a sound is heard ... even if I sing while the tree is falling in the forest and no one is around.

:-D

I'm not an proven illusion of molecular science. I am.

To prove this assertion, I invite you to bang your head on the nearest wall. If, then, the physical world is mostly illusionary empty space, your head and the wall should be adequately able to avoid collision. Pls get back to me with the results of your experimentation! :-D

Hmmm ... by what you say about music, communication and talking ... what is rap, then?

Kev-


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LyinDan

7/7/2008 1:58:18 PM


I'll just point out here that if you believe everything in the Universe is "Natural", then by definition the "Supernatural" (if what you're calling "Supernatural" is by your view merely some things that are as yet undiscovered and without a proper name or explanation) is "Natural".

Might we suggest that by calling something "Supernatural", we refer to something which operates or exists outside the physical laws which we have the conceit of thinking we know? And that of course such things would actually be "Natural" - since if they exist, they must be?


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LyinDan

7/7/2008 2:03:12 PM


Kev, if you're in the Matrix, then if you believe banging your illusory head against the illusory wall will hurt, it will. Everybody knows that if you die in the Matrix, well, it's really not good for you.

:p


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Kevin White

7/7/2008 2:11:13 PM


Actually, no. Supernatural means beyond natural ... which is no longer natural.

What we can say is that it is undiscovered or unknown ...

There is no question that there are physical laws of nature. Some are known, some are unknown.

The universive needs no proof, it is it's own truth. What is outside, if anything, of the universe is as yet undiscovered.

If it does not exist, then it will never be discovered.

:D

K-


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Kevin White

7/7/2008 2:14:46 PM


Kev, if you're in the Matrix, then if you believe banging your illusory head against the illusory wall will hurt, it will. Everybody knows that if you die in the Matrix, well, it's really not good for you.

:p


Neo ... I TOLD you to STAY OUT of this discussion ...

:-D

Kev-


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LyinDan

7/7/2008 2:24:05 PM


Eh, I don't think you've quite followed my circular reasoning.

So, there's no such thing as the "Supernatural", huh? (What did I really say?)


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LyinDan

7/7/2008 2:37:28 PM


While I'm here, I'll extend your thinking a bit, though.

What is outside the Universe? Will things outside our Universe have the same physical laws that we know (or think we can discover), or could they be different physical laws? By what conceivable mechanism are these laws enacted, anyway? Did they just happen? Did some superadvanced civilization make them up? Where did that civilization come from and what laws did they obey? Was it God? Where'd he come from? Those laws of our Universe, have they always been the same? What's "always", anyway? How long is infinite time? Is it enough ( :p) )? Are those physical laws we know in our Universe always obeyed? What kind of a law is it that supposes a result based on probability? Does that law always result in the same exact result, given the same starting conditions? What's gravity? What's magnetism? What's light? What's my point?


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The Man With No Band

7/7/2008 3:01:13 PM


Well .... I'm sure looking forward to 200 years from now when were ALL sitting around laughing about this discussion ... Sure hope they get weed legalized by then ... :)


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satch

7/7/2008 3:55:17 PM


Kev, forget the wine, it dulls the mind, and it's not an assertion, it's a proven and well-known scientific fact - the atoms and molecules that are the building blocks of matter are comprised mostly of empty space. Ergo, all physical objects, including people, are comprised mostly of empty space.

You should go read here : Science Lesson 1 - The Building Blocks of the Universe (Grade 5) - it states clearly, among other things, the following:

"Everything you see and many things you can’t see are made up of matter."
"Atoms are the building blocks of matter."
"One of the most surprising findings about atoms is that almost all the space within an atom is empty space."


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Baby

7/7/2008 5:06:50 PM


Mr Steve, Baby is wondering. When you get that giant rush of glory from the sky, when you are playing, singing or writing, who is in charge of that? I some times feel like I am physically connected to conduits that bring me gifts of ability. Is that my uncle the giraffe or perhaps my father the squid. Baby is confused again.


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Kevin White

7/7/2008 5:39:38 PM


Eh, I don't think you've quite followed my circular reasoning.

So, there's no such thing as the "Supernatural", huh? (What did I really say?)


I followed it fine LD ... but you stepped outside the lines and made assumptions of terminology ...

One cannot assert supernatural means undiscovered by logic.

Supernatural cannot be redefined by logic, it means:

Main Entry: su·per·nat·u·ral
Pronunciation: \?sü-p?r-'na-ch?-r?l, -'nach-r?l\
Function: adjective
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin supernaturalis, from Latin super- + natura nature
Date: 15th century
1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
2 a: departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b: attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)

Source: Merriam-Webster Dictionary

It means what it means ... aside from any outside interpretation. Is all.


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Steve April

7/7/2008 5:55:31 PM


baby baby baby, good to hear from you!!!

hmm natural vs. supernatural?

einstein, a big proponent of the reality of the natural world also said "God does not play dice with the universe." His favorite muscian was bach.

einstein also called an aspect of quantum realities "spooky action at a distance."

He admitted quanum realities have mystery effects, that science could not explain (and cannot to this day).

string theory, the new wave physics, goes beyond eisnstein in a way that einstein would have loved. string theory unifies the four fundamental forces. however, for string theory to be right, there need to be 10--12 dimensions. that's a pillar of string theory.

where are the missing 6-8 dimensions? numerous hidden dimensions are coiled into the fabric of the cosmos, curled up into a ball, according to one version, or w macro dimensions out in space somewhere. in the latter version, our dimensions (4) are much like a video game and the "bulk" (the other dimensions) are beyond the screen.

what's more, string theory involves a "bounce" so that the smaller dimensions in effect are dual to the larger dimensions. kinda like rebirth, or the prospect of rebirth.




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Kevin White

7/7/2008 5:55:58 PM ---- Updated 7/7/2008 5:59:00 PM


While I'm here, I'll extend your thinking a bit, though.

What is outside the Universe? Will things outside our Universe have the same physical laws that we know (or think we can discover), or could they be different physical laws? By what conceivable mechanism are these laws enacted, anyway? Did they just happen? Did some superadvanced civilization make them up? Where did that civilization come from and what laws did they obey? Was it God? Where'd he come from? Those laws of our Universe, have they always been the same? What's "always", anyway? How long is infinite time? Is it enough ( :p) )? Are those physical laws we know in our Universe always obeyed? What kind of a law is it that supposes a result based on probability? Does that law always result in the same exact result, given the same starting conditions? What's gravity? What's magnetism? What's light? What's my point?


Your point is simplistic. No one knows or can explain everything. Sure ... okay ... of course.

What's mine? Please be specific to show you understand.

Also, please explain why mono-polar magnetism should be prevalent in this universe but isn't? What theory explains why it's not?

You sure you want to play this game? It will extend your thinking a bit ... or not ... for you might already know.

:p

Kev-


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Steve April

7/7/2008 6:03:56 PM


Oops, our posts crossed.

Post mine anew so kev may have a go at it...

einstein, a big proponent of the reality of the natural world also said "God does not play dice with the universe." His favorite muscian was bach.

einstein also called an aspect of quantum realities "spooky action at a distance."

He admitted quanum realities have mystery effects, that science could not explain (and cannot to this day).

string theory, the new wave physics, goes beyond eisnstein in a way that einstein would have loved. string theory unifies the four fundamental forces. however, for string theory to be right, there need to be 10--12 dimensions. that's a pillar of string theory.

where are the missing 6-8 dimensions? numerous hidden dimensions are coiled into the fabric of the cosmos, curled up into a ball, according to one version, or w macro dimensions out in space somewhere. in the latter version, our dimensions (4) are much like a video game and the "bulk" (the other dimensions) are beyond the screen.

what's more, string theory involves a "bounce" so that the smaller dimensions in effect are dual to the larger dimensions. kinda like rebirth, or the prospect of rebirth.



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Slimdog Productions

7/7/2008 7:02:53 PM ---- Updated 7/7/2008 7:14:06 PM


I rather believe in God and die knowing that I believed in Him, believing in Something greater and more loving than what we are than to not believe in Him and find out when I die that He does exists...There is a natural order to the universe. Example: The sun is 93,000,000 miles away from the Earth. Any closer, we would burn, any farther away, we all would freeze. What if 1 molecule was added to H2O, our most precious natural resource? Was this H2O just some random number made up by the universe? What about air? Just random? Why doesn't the galaxies just collide all the time in the universe if it's just random? Take 1 million marbles and just let them randomly roll around. Of course you would have some collide all the time. But as we know from science, the millions upon millions of galaxies colliding just doesn't happen very frequently in the universe. It does happen though... There is just too much "order" imo for randomness in the universe. My mom passed away and actually was revived back in 1991 and she has had the "life after death" experience. She actually saw the little boy of a family friend who had passed at age 5 while clinically dead. She also went their house and saw the family doing their everyday things. She tried to speak to them, but of course, they didn't hear her. She visited a friend of mine's mother in N. Mexico who was sick at the time. She has other experiences that were more personal to her, but she will not speak to us on them. Because of this experience, she is not afraid of death. I have living proof, with me, of a life experience after death. Some may say it's the brain at a certain state, but I believe otherwise.

My question is this: A child gets shot and killed by accident because of a drive by shooting in LA because she was at the wrong place at the wrong time. She was 4 years old (true story). So her life is just "over" as some of you say? She lived 4 years to just get randomly killed by some gang member? Or was there a plan for her, possibly to teach people like me to hear this tragic story and to live each day like it's the last, to say "I love you" to all my family every day whether I am mad at them or not before I leave on a flight? To know that there is a place where she is at now, in peace, where her short time on Earth to learn & to help others, by her death is revered?


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Kevin White

7/7/2008 7:07:32 PM ---- Updated 7/7/2008 7:08:55 PM


Forget the wine, Satch, it was metaphorical and has no flavor.

I already knew what you offered in the grade 5 link.

The space between atoms is so small as to be not relevant. It's fluff thought to the people that die in car accidents because theoretical physics harshly meets real physics in the collision. The space between atoms was of little import in context.

I don't mean to be insulting, but I'm not sure where you intended to land in your last comment.

K-


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Kevin White

7/7/2008 7:21:21 PM


Steve ...

The fact that science is an ongoing process that of course cannot currently explain everything is not proof of anything. Science, like humans, will learn ... change, and hopefully move forward in knowledge.

Science is only a process ... not the do all end all ... c'mon ... who thinks that? Are we so immediate gratification that we think that? (I don't think so)

There is not a god because science can prove it?

There is a god because science can't prove there isn't?

Science has it's faults, and there are complete HUGE gaps, but it's how we study the truth of things, isn't it?

Science has nothing to do with religion ... it's a process, not a belief ...

Which of the above statements is most reasonable?

Kev-


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Kevin White

7/7/2008 7:32:42 PM ---- Updated 7/7/2008 7:37:48 PM


Slimdog ... in my life ... probably longer than yours ...

My mother in law claims she's seen a ghost.

My former drummer, a lawyer, has claimed he's seen a ghost.

I've stood on a lawn watching something with other people (8 to be exact) that very well could have been a UFO.

My former bass player claims to have been continually kidnapped by aliens and had experiments performed on him.

All true ...

I've personally seen and known a LOT of shit ...

All anecdotal and unexplainable ...

I've seen personal innocent friends die in car accidents, gun shootings, drug deals and other random unhappy circumstance.

My father, who I loved to the core of my being, was brought back from death ... and claimed simply that he was dead. He was a devout Catholic ... and still went into the dark unafraid ...

There's a whole lot of shit in the world.

It means nothing about God. It's just all the random shit that occurs whilst living.

Of course, it means what it means to you ... and that's fine.

My beliefs are proof of nothing and are not intended to be so. Yet, they seem to have hit a nerve that some folks feel a need to challenge ... yet they don't seem to hit the right wavelength ...

Best,

Kev-


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LyinDan

7/7/2008 7:40:12 PM


Sure, I'll play! Woohoo! Everyone else will get bored, but we'll have a grand old time!

Let's start with the simple stuff

*******
"I followed it fine LD"

No, you didn't. You're an explicit, literal guy, Kev, here ya go.

---------
"I'll just point out here that if you believe everything in the Universe is "Natural", then by definition the "Supernatural" (if what you're calling "Supernatural" is by your view merely some things that are as yet undiscovered and without a proper name or explanation) is "Natural".

Might we suggest that by calling something "Supernatural", we refer to something which operates or exists outside the physical laws which we have the conceit of thinking we know? And that of course such things would actually be "Natural" - since if they exist, they must be?", I said.

To which, you replied, "Actually, no. Supernatural means beyond natural"[duh] "... which is no longer natural." [Wait for it...the punchline is usually in the last part of the exposition...oh, hell, I forgot I was supposed to be literal and explicit, not smartass. Ok. You clearly didn't read the second paragraph, or if you did, didn't follow it fine. I paraphrased your later dictionary definition of Supernatural before you even phrased it in the first place, so do you suppose I knew what the dictionary definition of Supernatural is? In my first paragraph, I defined Supernatural phenomena in the way that people who don't believe there is such a thing explain what people who DO believe in them are deluding themselves with. In other words, I said the Supernatural is simply a misinterpretation of natural phenomena.]

"What we can say is that it is undiscovered or unknown ..." [You've just said what I just got through saying. What a revelation.]

"There is no question that there are physical laws of nature. Some are known, some are unknown.

The universive needs no proof, it is it's own truth." [Stating the obvious. Why? With a superfluous apostrophe and a misspelling, even. The dictionary says there is no such word as universive. Perhaps you can teach me the meaning of it and broaden my thinking.] What is outside, if anything, of the universe is as yet undiscovered." [No shittski]

"If it does not exist, then it will never be discovered.

:D"
------
Then I say, "Eh, I don't think you've quite followed my circular reasoning.

So, there's no such thing as the "Supernatural", huh? (What did I really say?)"[Let me explain this literally, for the literal-minded. I mentioned circular reasoning, which should have been a clue for you. The closer is my last sentence here ("So, there's no such thing as the "Supernatural", huh?") You've said you don't believe there are any Supernatural phenomena, am I right? And you believe that what other people believe are Supernatural happenings, are simply misapprehensions of Natural phenomena?
When I said, "Might we suggest that by calling something "Supernatural", we refer to something which operates or exists outside the physical laws which we have the conceit of thinking we know? And that of course such things would actually be "Natural" - since if they exist, they must be?", what does that mean to you? Gobbledygoop? Or does it suggest that there is no such thing as "Supernatural"? (which is your own position, isn't it?) Supernatural=Natural=Supernatural, circular reasoning. If I have to interpret the distinctions between the definitions for you now, I will have to stomp my feet and make rude noises with my lips. In other words, I was saying what you have already stated, that there is no such thing as the Supernatural, because whatever actually exists and happens must by definition be Natural, since there is nothing which actually happens which is outside "Natural" phenomena, the distinction is merely semantic.

To which you replied, "I followed it fine LD ... but you stepped outside the lines and made assumptions of terminology ...[umm, no, since terms are indeed important, in my first paragraph first post, as I said (in case you haven't read all this, I'll repeat it (first you tell em what you're going to tell em,then you tell em, then you tell em what you done tole em), "I defined Supernatural phenomena in the way that people who don't believe there is such a thing explain what people who DO believe in them are deluding themselves with. In other words, I said the Supernatural is simply a misinterpretation of natural phenomena." That's not making assumptions, it's shining the glorious light of interpretation and enlightenment on some previously cloudy and indeterminate discussion]

"One cannot assert supernatural means undiscovered by logic." [I never said any such thing. Although, I have been known to argue that logic is a human invention, an assertion I'm very sure you can't possibly agree with, and one which I only assert under certain logically extreme circumstances :)]

Supernatural cannot be redefined by logic, it means:" - followed by a cut and paste of the dictionary definition of Supernatural which basically equates to my first post second paragraph ("Might we suggest that by calling something "Supernatural", we refer to something which operates or exists outside the physical laws which we have the conceit of thinking we know?")
**********
More to follow, unless you assert you give up now.

:D


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Kevin White

7/7/2008 8:10:48 PM ---- Updated 7/7/2008 8:14:47 PM


Love a lively discussion ... LD ... so hell, yeah ... I'm in.

What it boils down to is in your last paragraph ...

Might we suggest that by calling something "Supernatural", we refer to something which operates or exists outside the physical laws which we have the conceit of thinking we know?"

See above textbook accepted definition of supernatural.

It has nothing to do with having the conceit of thinking we know. We already know we don't know everything.

If it's outside of the physical laws, its conjecture ... make believe ... made up shit ... until proven or discovered otherwise. In the time of man, the supernatural remains stubbornly unsubstantiated.

Hence, it means nothing.

You have the floor.

Best,

Kev-


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fly on the wall

7/7/2008 8:14:46 PM


Then again, if you've experienced the supernatural, you might not feel the need to prove it to anybody.


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Kevin White

7/7/2008 8:18:43 PM ---- Updated 7/7/2008 8:26:06 PM


See above. I've stood on a lawn w/ others looking at what I still believe was a UFO. With a camera, I could have taken a picture of it.

Go figure huh?

I don't feel a need to prove the supernatural. Others seem to want to prove it to me ... but I've seen the questionable ...

And still ...

I don't believe in supernatural. Other life in this universe though ... even unproven ...

The distinction being?

Kev-


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LyinDan

7/7/2008 8:48:06 PM


"1: of or relating to an order of existence beyond the visible observable universe; especially : of or relating to God or a god, demigod, spirit, or devil
2 a: departing from what is usual or normal especially so as to appear to transcend the laws of nature b: attributed to an invisible agent (as a ghost or spirit)"

"Might we suggest that by calling something "Supernatural", we refer to something which operates or exists outside the physical laws which we have the conceit of thinking we know?"

You're arguing these definitions aren't equivalent? Please clarify. I believe they are in a broad sense.

You're just nitpicking if you're basing your objection on the clause "which we have the conceit of thinking we know". That's just a modifier making fun of you, not the meat. It changes nothing except to parabolize about the fact that we don't really know what the physical laws are in this universe. Our concepts of the governing physics of the universe have been changed and modified for literally thousands of years. Just in the last century, the change from Newtonian physics to Einsteinian was a tremendous jump, even though in the practical everyday close at hand world, you can't tell the difference in their implications. It would be asinine to think there won't be further changes in our understanding of the way the universe is built. Who's to say that future explanations of the way the world works won't open the door to what is now regarded as Supernatural "wishful thinking" and hoakum. If you're going to dismiss that possibility, then you're not really as open to the possibility that you may be wrong as you hint you are. And it's not even the fact that you dismiss most of this stuff out of hand as bs that aroused me, it's the self-assured manner you have when you do it.

Anyhow, I'm not here to stand up for wild-eyed religious beliefs (and I'm certain in my own mind that just about all religious structures (as opposed to religious ideas) are pure mindnumbing crowd controlling bullshit), nor am I an alien enthusiast or believer in Druidic pap, or peyote-induced clap. Actually, I were a physics major in college, yea so many, many years ago. And I'm aquainted with the usual explanations of "Supernatural" phenomena (your mind is fooling you is the most often used one - and it's often correct).

I'm merely here to pierce your blatant self-assurance. I've played the same role with religious nuts, so it's only fair to take some of their arguments as mine, turnabout. And there's only room for one egotistical, pompous asshole here - and that would be Moi.


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LyinDan

7/7/2008 8:50:50 PM


Oh, yeah, and since you didn't dispute any of the other points, I win those, right?


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Slimdog Productions

7/7/2008 8:51:49 PM


I feel that everyone has their own beliefs, mine included and I respect that, whatever the truth may be...Good topic of conversation. I also believe that because you have lived longer, doesn't necessarily mean you have "lived" longer...get my drift?


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The Man With No Band

7/7/2008 11:31:59 PM


The most beautiful thing we can experience is the mysterious. It is the source of all true Art and Science. He to whom this emotion is a stranger, who can no longer pause to wonder and stand rapt in awe, is as good as dead: his eyes are closed ....
To know that what is impenetrable to us really exist, manifesting itself as the highest wisdom and the most radiant beauty which our dull faculties can comprehend only in their most primitive forms - this knowledge, this feeling, is at the center of true religiousness. In this sense, and in this sense only, I belong in the ranks of devoutly religious men.
- Albert Einstein


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Vincenzo Pandolfi

7/8/2008 4:12:24 AM


Where we came from is significant, as it helps us to understand who we are, but where we are going, is more important than where we were.

Where we will be is determined by our actions in the present.

VP


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Nerol

7/8/2008 4:42:45 AM


Satch, life has an opposite. A weed in my garden this morning was alive. I pulled it and now it is dead. It is no longer alive. "Not alive" is the opposite of alive. A brother of mine died almost two years ago. He is now the opposite of alive.

The concept of karma presents its own set of problems too. The stillborn baby, the woman who is raped, the child in Zimbabwe who starves to death....all getting what they deserve due to their karmic wheel? If you believe in karma, then that's what you're saying. Unless you're willing to say that karma doesn't always work the way it should. Just saying.


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Nerol

7/8/2008 4:47:16 AM


And also, "death" can be a noun or a verb, i.e., a process or a state of existence. The opposite of life, the noun, is death. The opposite of death, the noun, is life. The opposite of death, the verb, (the process), would be birth, as you say. So life, as a state of existence, most certainly has an opposite, and that would be the state of non-life or death.

It all comes together when you leave out the word play. :)


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Kevin White

7/8/2008 6:15:36 AM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 6:17:59 AM


I'm merely here to pierce your blatant self-assurance.

Can't be done on a bbs ... nothing has been presented that would shake my confidence or clarity of thought ... and because of the shallowness of the format, my full position to most is likely still general, uninformed and wispy of substance. I don't mind. I know what I think, and I've thought long and hard at it. I spent my youth reading volumes on ESP, magic and other parlor tricks ... wanting it to be true.

Heck, libraries have been written on this subject. Whomever thinks that the subject can be comprehensively discussed on a bbs would be quite mistaken.

Have I said humanity knows all there is to know? Of course not. Who thinks that?

Have I said it doesn't matter because the discussion isn't about any body of scientific knowledge in particular? Yup.

Can what once was considered supernatural be later found to be natural? Of course it can. Thunder and lightning was once considered supernatural. There were Gods involved! Remember?

Yet ...

What exists, exists. It's there. What's not there will remain not there ... never to be "discovered" ... because it's not there, and never has been ... forget natural or supernatural ... it will never be found because it never was.

It's a figment of the imagination ...

Ghosts ...
Vampires ...
Zombies ...
Any Dead returning to communicate ...
Fortune Telling ...
Spirits ...
Magic ...
Voodoo ...
Curses ...
ESP ...
ATT ... (you heard me right, I don't believe in them, either :-D)
A personal God ... and I doubt ... any God(s) ...

Kev-


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Hop On Pop

7/8/2008 6:22:35 AM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 6:22:52 AM


What's not there will remain not there ... never to be "discovered" ... because it's not there, and never has been ...

You mean like other planets? You mean like the laws of nature? You mean like God?
You don't know what is there and what is not there yet, Kevin.

For the very same reasons that you are espousing: WE DON'T KNOW (yet)!
Therefore, nothing is definitive. Because we don't know what we don't know.

Todd


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Kevin White

7/8/2008 6:26:30 AM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 6:29:26 AM


Oh, yeah, and since you didn't dispute any of the other points, I win those, right?

Of course not, I concede little ground. I will though, say that I misused the term "logic" ... causing confusion of point.

When one is holding 5 simultaneous conversations, plodding, point by point discussion just isn't possible, so I had to only directly address the heart of your post..

Otherwise, I'd have been up all night typing ... making me very grumpy this morning, instead of my natural sweet disposition.

:-D

btw ... on this bbs, we can be the two old codgers up in the balcony box on the Muppets, making trouble.

:-D

Kev-


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Kevin White

7/8/2008 6:37:07 AM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 7:24:09 AM


Morning Todd!

Yes, there is a lot of unknown, but again ... the crux of the matter isn't what is unknown ...

Are more planets awaiting discovery? Yes. They are known to exist.

Are more "laws of nature" awaiting discovery? Yes. They are known to exist.

Is "God" awaiting discovery? Perhaps. God is not known to exist. I suspect we'll be waiting forever on this one though ...

Are Ghosts awaiting discovery? Perhaps. Millions are trying to prove them ... yet ... not a single credible shred of evidence. I suspect this is a dead end path of exploration too.

It is obvious that we don't know what we don't know. We also will forever remain uncertain about what's there and what's not. Otherwise we'll know all there is to know. Who knows? We may get there if we don't knock ourselves off (or some other external calamity occurs) along the way ...

If we're gone though ... what will God do with no one to know? (Remember, this is where I started the conversation.)

I wouldn't count on Cats to take our place. They worship nothing but themselves ...

If we take humanity out of the equation ... do we remove God as part of that? I think so ... along w/ ESP and all the other things I mentioned above.

There are certain things one can suspect and anticipate will never be able to be known ... all the while allowing that one might be totally wrong ... which I've said several times above. Yet, I don't think so.

Best,

Kev-


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Kevin White

7/8/2008 6:48:34 AM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 7:05:36 AM


I also believe that because you have lived longer, doesn't necessarily mean you have "lived" longer...get my drift?

Depends on one's definition of "lived" doesn't it? And who is to judge one life over another? You? Me? God? lol ...

It would require observational judgments on things for which there are no right answers. So, yes, SD ... I believe I get your drift, and I think otherwise.

Best,

Kev-


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Hop On Pop

7/8/2008 7:19:25 AM


So your belief in science all comes down to faith in the process does it not?
Faith?

Hmmm.....

-Todd


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satch

7/8/2008 7:33:01 AM


"Everything you see and many things you can’t see are made up of matter."
"Atoms are the building blocks of matter."
"One of the most surprising findings about atoms is that almost all the space within an atom is empty space."

Kev - if you accept these facts, then you simply must also accept that all physical matter, though it appears to be solid, is in fact mostly empty space.

So, my point is that the physical world is illusory - it appears to made up of solid objects but these objects are in fact mostly space.

This anomaly is maintained by the fact we live within the physical world, we perceive this physical world through our five senses, our senses limit our perceptions of the world we live in.

Ergo, if your view off life is based on your physical perceptions, then your view of life is limited.


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Kevin White

7/8/2008 7:35:01 AM


I wish folks wouldn't keep harping back to what science knows and doesn't. It's missing the point.

It doesn't matter.

It's not about faith in the process of science or not. Science is a tool. Faith is not required in a hammer.

It doesn't matter.

It's about human nature ...

... the things we make up to comfort ourselves ...

... the incredibly varying interpretations of "GOD" various cultures have had over the millennium ...

... the continuing and evolving change of the face of "God"...

... Science is actually only mildly relevant in the conversation ...

Read my last post to you, bud, about when humanity is no more. Is God no more?

The core question is:

What has humanity simply made up for themselves that has little to no substantiation in a natural universe? For when we go ... it too passes along with us ...

(see above list)

Kev-


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Hop On Pop

7/8/2008 7:36:23 AM


At this pont, let me state, for the record that I adhere to no single religious creed or dogma or whatever you choose to call it.

I just have faith that there is a higher power out there, no matter what it may be.

Physics has proven that you cannot create matter from nothingness. So then, where did the matter in the universe come from? It could not have simply always existed... it had to come from somewhere. But... where?

Todd


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Kevin White

7/8/2008 7:51:01 AM


"Everything you see and many things you can’t see are made up of matter."
"Atoms are the building blocks of matter."
"One of the most surprising findings about atoms is that almost all the space within an atom is empty space."

Kev - if you accept these facts, then you simply must also accept that all physical matter, though it appears to be solid, is in fact mostly empty space.

So, my point is that the physical world is illusory - it appears to made up of solid objects but these objects are in fact mostly space.

This anomaly is maintained by the fact we live within the physical world, we perceive this physical world through our five senses, our senses limit our perceptions of the world we live in.

Ergo, if your view off life is based on your physical perceptions, then your view of life is limited.


Our physical perceptions ARE all we have to work with, Satch. What else is there? ESP? It doesn't exist. I've studied it extensively.

What you're discussing is theoretical abstracts. We can't see quarks or atoms, obviously, but we've been able ... through our innate ability to handle conceptual abstractions, to ascertain their existence.

We don't live in the abstract world where there's tons of space. We live in the real one where the neighbors keep each other up at night.

I need to eat, and if all my food is mostly abstract empty space, well ... that might explain why I eat so much.

Reality is not an illusion. It's real. What you're discussing is abstractions that are the building blocks of matter ... and matter is very real.

I understand your point ... that our senses limit us in what we can touch, smell, see, hear and taste ...

Yet our brain's ability to deal with the abstract allows us to know that ultraviolet light is there, even though we cannot see it.

Our brain takes us beyond our limited senses.

And the same ability of the abstract that allows it to extend beyond our five senses is the same ability that makes shit up that's not there.

Kev-


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LyinDan

7/8/2008 7:54:02 AM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 7:55:12 AM


Now, now, Tod, we must pick and choose which points to respond to if we're to win at BB Ball - as has been amply demonstrated here. So, no talking about what's behind the physical universe or where all this stuff came from - it doesn't matter.

Let's deal instead with what we do know and dismiss what we don't know as unimportant and irrelevant, while admitting that we don't know a lot of things, including, as many have said, not knowing what we don't know about. Let's give lip service to what we don't know, while not discussing the implications of not knowing what we don't know, and let's mention some straw men, werewolves, dracula, zombies, etc. while we're talking about God - it's all the same.


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Kevin White

7/8/2008 8:03:19 AM


Physics has proven that you cannot create matter from nothingness. So then, where did the matter in the universe come from? It could not have simply always existed... it had to come from somewhere. But... where?

There is a whole discipline of Physics studying this very question:

Okay ... we believe there was a Big Bang ... the information present in the universe points towards it.

Nothing comes from nothing ...

So what did the universe look like before the BB? It's just looking back down the chain of events ... and we may never know the answer.

Theories are being suggested ... "The inflationary universe" where things got very hot and very cold ... but didn't cool evenly ... and then exploded and ...

Science doesn't substantially matter, it can only go so far in explaining so many things ... but we'll see ...

Everyone is fully entitled to engage in whatever belief they want while alive. And then we'll still all die. And then we'll know. Or not.

Best,

Kev-


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LyinDan

7/8/2008 8:14:22 AM


As far as the space between matter, well, matter is only a distinction of energy, it's all energy out there. E=Mc2. Vibration. Waves. In that way, it is all illusion. That keyboard under your fingers is actually a collection of trillions of little waving flags bound together by some sort of affection for each other. We may eventually dissect the details of how all those little waves and vibrations interact, and that may help us to manipulate them, but it still won't tell us why they do what they do, why they are here in the first place, what they really are. Are they and we a fig newton of God's imagination? No way of telling from staring at them.

Maybe there's a little demon assigned to each teeny unit of energy/matter, and it's his job to enforce the law. No way of telling by looking at those those teeny little thingies.

In that way, a stark view of the universe as just mechanical interactions of little physical bodies and energy does require some faith that that is the way things are. You're not going to prove or disprove either the view of stark physical reality or the view of God(however you define Him, there are any number of ways of thinking about some higher Force behind the Universe)-driven events. There simply is no test to distinguish between the two (unless you define this God in some testable way, which would only be a set-up job).

So, yeah, God, no God, it does come down to faith either way, at its root. Faith that what you see and can test is all there is, or faith that God activates all this.

Now, there are certainly testable systems of religious belief, because those have been systematized by men, and they all will fail one test or another, most of them spectacularly. This says nothing about a Prime Creator or Motivator, it simply speaks to men's ideas about such a thing.


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Kevin White

7/8/2008 8:15:09 AM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 8:50:27 AM


Now, now, Tod, we must pick and choose which points to respond to if we're to win at BB Ball - as has been amply demonstrated here. So, no talking about what's behind the physical universe or where all this stuff came from - it doesn't matter.

Let's deal instead with what we do know and dismiss what we don't know as unimportant and irrelevant, while admitting that we don't know a lot of things, including, as many have said, not knowing what we don't know about. Let's give lip service to what we don't know, while not discussing the implications of not knowing what we don't know, and let's mention some straw men, werewolves, dracula, zombies, etc. while we're talking about God - it's all the same.


Or instead ... we could waste time talking about how we're talking, and then we'd be discussing how useless all conversation is ... because when it gets all about the players and their funny accents ... and silly snide attempts at ridicule are made ...

... then the one making silly snide attempts at ridicule, becomes subject to said ridicule themselves.

It's all about "winning" BB Ball? Winning what? You want to be champion?

Here's a medal ... wear it proudly.

You aren't paying proper attention to the crux of discussion ... You're too busy trying to "win argument points" ... via nitpicking minutiae.

Pls ... offer something ... that doesn't simply try to disassemble.

What's your actual opinion on the matter at hand? Then I can play your disassemble game with you ...


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Kevin White

7/8/2008 8:22:49 AM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 9:50:54 AM


lol ... and then you did ...

It's all about faith ... yes.

For no one knows the truth of the matter as I said several times above, until you die. Even then, who knows ... you're right again ... none of it is testable.

But ... I keep going back to where I started ...

I've always wondered what constructs disappear when humans do, and what 'truths" will remain in the universe outside of human ... what's the word ... interaction?

"God" is likely a human theoretical manifestation, explainable as a emotional psychological crutch to derive comfort in dealing w/ human awareness and comprehension of adverse circumstance and the finality of death ...

... to my mind ... all for which there is no applicable test available for.

I stick by my list ... straw man included.


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LyinDan

7/8/2008 8:51:57 AM


I like to talk about how we're talking. It's substantive, because until you define where you're coming from and why you're posting on a BB (which...technically, this is Ison's blog we're posting on, heh, not a BB, but ya know, by any other name, blah, blah) in the first place, you're having a muddled discussion. Dude, no one posts on a BB without at least subconsciously wanting reactions, and usually wanting some agreement or re-inforcement of what they're posting. It's a game of sorts, and denying it doesn't make it not so. I'm just blatant and explicit about it.

**********
" "God" is a human theoretical manifestation to derive comfort in dealing w/ our comprehension"

So is mathematics. I know you'll prolly disagree with that one, so I'll let you get that out of your system while I do other necessary stuff for a while. Then I'll revisit. Eventually, I even tell you what I think about life after death (shock!)


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Hop On Pop

7/8/2008 8:57:22 AM


Not (necesasarily) looking to "win"... ;-)

Just talking about thinking and how we think, because that IS what this topic is all about. It's an unwinnable arguement on all sides. And I, for one, love that it is. Because I love endless possibilities.

With agape...
Todd


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The Man With No Band

7/8/2008 9:14:37 AM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 9:30:41 AM


Loren .... We were all something before we were born ... We will all be something after we're gone ... therefore there is no death ...

If, as you say, death is the opposite of life ... then you are saying that before we were born, we were "not alive" therefore dead ...
so by your own admission ,"Death is the opposite of Life", you are saying there is Life after Death ... because we were the opposite of life "not alive or dead" and then we were born "alive or life" ...

... the cycle never ends ... so there can be no death


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Kevin White

7/8/2008 10:03:29 AM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 10:09:33 AM


I like to talk about how we're talking. It's substantive, because until you define where you're coming from and why you're posting on a BB (which...technically, this is Ison's blog we're posting on, heh, not a BB, but ya know, by any other name, blah, blah) in the first place, you're having a muddled discussion. Dude, no one posts on a BB without at least subconsciously wanting reactions, and usually wanting some agreement or re-inforcement of what they're posting. It's a game of sorts, and denying it doesn't make it not so. I'm just blatant and explicit about it.

Discussion on any bbs is always muddled to some degree or another. Pointing it out points out the obvious ... so I consider it pretty much a waste of space ... and thereby avoid doing it. It bogs things down. I'd rather just take what's said and run w/ it from there.

To whit:

So is mathematics. I know you'll prolly disagree with that one, so I'll let you get that out of your system while I do other necessary stuff for a while. Then I'll revisit. Eventually, I even tell you what I think about life after death (shock!)

I agree (shock!) :D

Mathematical constructs seek practical order out of the unknown.

God constructs seek emotional order out of the random chaos.

Same triggers of origination, different needs serviced.


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Andy Broad

7/8/2008 10:15:13 AM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 10:52:09 AM


"if you accept these facts, then you simply must also accept that all physical matter, though it appears to be solid, is in fact mostly empty space."

What make you think this so called space is empty?

It's full force fields (not the science fiction kind :-)) strong. weak, elctromagnetic, and gravitational.
As Einstein said:

"There is no such thing as an empty space, i.e., a space without field. Space-time does not claim existence on its own, but only as a structural quality of the field."





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Andy Broad

7/8/2008 10:17:42 AM


When Einstein said "God doesn't play dice with the universe" he wasn't talking about God, but expression is discomfort with the new concepts involved in quantum mechanics.


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LyinDan

7/8/2008 10:18:45 AM


I AM shocked. Most people think mathematics actually exists outside of peoples' minds, even that mathematics IS the physical law. Good for you!

You're a merciless player, Kev, and you know the rules of BBdom very well. But that's the last I'll say about that. It is now unmentionable.


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7/8/2008 10:30:11 AM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 10:33:12 AM


Damn, this is a zesty topic...

I wonder if anyone puts this much thought into their own sex life

Probably not, since it's not an eventuality for many of us



Anyone hungry for cod ? Quite frankly, I'm surprised and disappointed John Fry hasn't shown up with his photoshopped version of death. I keep checking, and checking, but no... nothing ! Sorry Steve you wicked thread-meister you, I creep back to the murky infested waters from whence I came. Here cod... coddie cod cod... c'mon little fishy... I can hear you gurgling...

it's all so fluid


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/8/2008 10:51:35 AM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 10:54:15 AM


"If it's outside of the physical laws, its conjecture ... make believe ... made up shit ... until proven or discovered otherwise. In the time of man, the supernatural remains stubbornly unsubstantiated."

Hence, it means nothing."

I think this quote is total bullshit. Kev, you are very smart and eloquent but wow does this quote suck :) we are naive, science is still infantile. There is still much we do not understand, and may never understand, and will never be substantiated.
There are miracles that surround us every day....Little things we may take for granted. Sight for one........the human eye is amazing. As is the human brain...billions of cells and neurons. Yes we can seek to explain the rods and cones of the human eye through medicine and science, but it is still a miracle.

This is a huge blog, many words....too long to read every thing, Kev's quote stuck out to me,not picking on you Kev, you have made many valid points, However, this whole debate is egocentric. It cannot be won as faith is personal. It cannot be proven or disproven. Faith.....you cannot take it away from those who believe.

There are many religions and supernatural beliefs. If I can believe I am here, thinking, writing, breathing,...It is not a stretch to believe...in something greater.

We are each living a miracle..if it was by accident, now that is harder to believe then anything I have read here.How was energy created? What was here before it? Does space ever end? and if so what stops it? And if there is a barrier, what is on the other side? (David St. Hubbins is a genious, I am paraphrasing :)

Science to many is a religion in which to attempt to understand. It is not much different then faith, as in the end all that is left are theories.

I choose to believe in something greater, and I am thankful to have been given the opportunity to Live....To each his own, I respect each and everyones faith.

Regards,

Jeff


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Jack Heinicke

7/8/2008 11:02:34 AM


I can't believe I'm doing this.
I've seen literally countless similar discussions like this one for years on the net that I can't believe I'm being sucked in again. I feel like Al Pacino in Godfather 3.
This time I'm going to go about it a different way because it is in my opinion an exercise in futility to get anyone in these forums to actually seriously consider something they disagree with. Plus trying to get people to see things my way is ridiculous. Who really cares what I think, besides myself and maybe (i stress the word maybe) my wife. Plus it seems to me that those who are asking the questions aren't really interested in what, let's say a Christian believes because the questioner already has their mind made up on the answer to the question and their just having fun baiting the hook.
Which is fine. These discussions are vastly interesting but eventually it just reminds me of my dog when she's chasing her tail.
Either way, I know what I believe and I'm sticking to it. Not because of anything anyone in a discussion forum stated but because of what I've experienced and have come to believe as the absolute truth. Call me arrogant for saying that, I don't care.
All I know is that I am an undeserving sinner saved by His grace; otherwise known as Jesus Christ.

OK, I'm good now.


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LyinDan

7/8/2008 11:08:00 AM


Jack, it's an oldy but a goody. Throw us some meat.


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Jack Heinicke

7/8/2008 11:31:38 AM


Dude quit trying to suck me in!
If someone wants meat they'll just search the __scriptures for it. Plus it helps to search with at least a mustard seed of faith.
Or else they'll just continue believing what they been believing. Which is probably more likely.


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The Man With No Band

7/8/2008 11:41:16 AM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 11:42:43 AM


Jack ! Quite to the contrary ... I and am sure others as well DO care what you think ... Sure there are those in the blog arena around the web that just want to be right and have closed minds ...

but others enjoy learning ...
Many of the views I have obtained through my life are from reading others words ...

That is one problem I do have with the larger part of anyone that is a devout Christian, Buddhist, Atheist etc. etc. ... They seem to have closed their minds to the possibility that their faith could be wrong ... and that they "KNOW" all the answers and everyone else is spreading the Devil's world .... They have no tolerance for learning unless it is taught to their belief system ...


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the kozy king

7/8/2008 11:45:04 AM



JACK: "The questioner already has their mind made up on the answer to the question."

DAN: "Jack... throw us some meat."

KOZY: "Don't fall for it, Jack." (:-)))))))))

For me the proof is in the pudding as they say. Let's have the same discussion next year and see who says the same thing again and who changes their "truth" by then.

I have enjoyed every word. A couple of people here are excellent at arguing in the classical sense. Some of us suffer from illusions of grandeur. And a couple of people have shown a bit of true humility.

Wow! What long blog. And no response from Ison...


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The Man With No Band

7/8/2008 12:05:50 PM


Terry I think you are wrong on this point ...

"For me the proof is in the pudding as they say. Let's have the same discussion next year and see who says the same thing again and who changes their "truth" by then."

I believe that I have changed greatly through the years ... no one is born with a set Right and wrong ideas ... and no one is born with a closed mind ...

The teaching of religion is usually a very early starting point for closing minds ...
Religion causes wars, unrest and upheaval ...

When you are taught to believe something so strongly you are shutting off the world and creating major tension between you and someone who has been taught completely different ... and it all is caused by closed minds ... people who KNOW that they are right and everyone else that doesn't believe the way they do is wrong ....

Most experts on any subject are later proven to be wrong ...
I choose to take my teachings from the whole spectrum ... not just one overly concieted book..


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Jack Heinicke

7/8/2008 12:10:34 PM


Crap. The hook is my mouth.
TMWNB- I appreciate your comment. I take it back that peoples words don't help us to change and alter our minds. Maybe I just didn't express myself on that one correctly. I just find it futile to try to change anyone's mind. And that's funny because I work as a counselor. HAH! Plus it was nice of you say that others do care about what I say. Your a nice guy.
On the topic of devout believers being closed minded I must say that I can't disagree with you. You are right about that. But part of the problem is that in order to be devout about a particular belief, doesn't that in itself rule out that person really allowing themselves to believe what is contrary to what they are devout about? I have had many times of severe doubt as a believer and have questioned the very core of my beliefs but at the end of the day I keep coming back to the same place. As Peter told Jesus when Jesus asked him, "who do you say I am" I keep coming up with same answer and that He is who He says He is; the Christ.
And yes, today I am closed minded about believing in anything else. Before believing this I spent about 3 years searching for some semblance of THE truth and I read and studied just about everything I could get my hands on. I even studied A Course In Miracles with people. All I can tell you is that once I encountered what (or rather Who I encountered) I have had no need whatsoever to look anywhere else. I found what I'd been looking for and it wasn't in a religion per se, but it was in the person/God; Jesus Christ.
And because of me having my personal experience I don't expect my words to do the same for another person. The words can and do help point someone in that direction but that's all I can attempt.
And I really hope that I don't even begin to think that it's about me being right. I know my thinking all too well and how flawed it can be. I just want to be aligned with what is right. And my very soul tells me it's Him.


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/8/2008 12:12:22 PM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 12:16:36 PM


For me, It is perfectly ok to have a faith so strong I believe I am right, .....

However, I believe I need to have tolerance and respect for those who have a differing opinion, even if I think they are wrong.

Respect is a two way street, if you want it...you must give it.


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The Man With No Band

7/8/2008 12:22:27 PM


Very nice Jack ... and interesting ... but let me put this out there for you ...

You happened to be in a place where the "right" books fell into your hands to lead you to your current beliefs ...

but why I say it makes no sense to be so strongly attached to one religion or the other is ... take the scenerio that you had been born into a devout Muslim family ... I can't say for sure but chances are ... would you not proclaim that the Muslim faith was the only correct faith ? ... and I use Muslim as an example ... it could be any religion ...

I have a hard time believing certain people are led to certain books and others are led to other books and that only one of those groups of people are "entitled" to a glorious after life and others are not ....


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Jack Heinicke

7/8/2008 12:37:11 PM


Once again I can't argue with you Sam. You are probably right about if one is born into a particular belief system then they probably would inherit that belief.
I also have had a very, very hard time with the "exclusivity" aspect of my beliefs. I know, it sounds like a prestigious country club where only the elite can enter into. And that idea really sucks! Thats why Jesus said I've come not for those who are well but for those who are sick. And that's me!
A large part of the whole point of Christianity is that NO ONE is entitled to a glorious afterlife. All He asks is one simple little thing.
Do you believe? If the answer is yes then it says you do get to enter now. If you say no then it's no go. I know exactly how this feels to someone looking in because I used to be there. It really sucks and pisses you off! At least it did for me. And it just doesn't seem right. I know how this feels because I remember where I came from. And I am in no way shape or form any more (or less) deserving of entry than anyone else. As Clint Eastwood said in The Unforgiven when he was about to blow Gene Hackman's brains out after Hackman said, " I don't deserve to die like a dog like this" ol' Clint said, "deserves got nothing to do with it". Man I love that line because it is so true! (plus the movie rocks).
So I agree with you as well that it is hard to believe that certain people are led and other's aren't. But I agree also with (I think it was Kozy Kings) that if God is actually doing that, then He must know what He's doing. Even if that means that I don't get in.


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/8/2008 12:45:06 PM


The problem I have with orgaized religion is it is full of contradiction, and things that just don't seem right at the core.

As for Christianity, I do not agree a murderer who has accepted jesus christ gets a free pass to heaven, when a Man who by all accounts has been a giving, gentle person is condemned to Hell because he chose to not to be a Christian.

I cannot speak for other religions as I am ignorant of them....

I am not an Agnostic, but I do not follow a religion. I do have faith in something bigger then us all, but I have too many questions. If there is a God, I would like to think goodness, free will, charity,kindness, etc mean something. We are all flawed...

I wish I did have an unweilding faith that I can rely and lean on. Whether it be Christianity, Muslim, Hindu, Buddah,........ It would certainly ease alot of anxiety I feel every day. I do know this, we are given one life to Live on this earth....here and now. We must all make the most of it, and be the best human we can be.

May each be blessed in their own way.

Jeff


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The Man With No Band

7/8/2008 12:54:53 PM


Jack ... This one is real hard for me to grasp ..
"A large part of the whole point of Christianity is that NO ONE is entitled to a glorious afterlife."

but the point is, that according to Christian beliefs, you get a choice to make ... choose Jesus and get in ... don't and no entry ...

but I have a hard time believing only certain people "get" that choice ... it is the same with "Allah" ... and other various religious icons ...

You are to make a choice with-in your religion ... everybody else is being led astray ? .. it doesn't compute in my eyes ...

The Bible has many, many, great lessons ... but so does the Koran and the Book of Buddha ... and the Jewish text ... and The Book of Mormon and on and on and on ...

The Bible has enriched my life, as well as these other doctrines as well, I feel those that do not (or are unwilling) to explore life and it's authors are cheating themselves out of all the glory that God has put on this Earth for us to see ...
and in the end ALL faiths will disappear into the vastness of one ...


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LyinDan

7/8/2008 1:03:07 PM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 1:05:32 PM


Well, there's always Unitarian Universalism. They're not exclusive.


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Jack Heinicke

7/8/2008 1:09:39 PM


Dang it Sam, you got me hooked!

I see where your coming from, I really do. It's just that no matter where someone is born or what belief/religious system they are born into, we all equally get to make that choice. And that's the funny thing to me man is that it is as simple as that. It's a simple little ol' choice! All those folks you mention from various beliefs, many of them regardless of their religious upbringing have made this very choice.
It's like, do I choose to wear white or black socks today. I know I'm trivializing the heck out of the sacred and what is the most important question that this post is addressing but when you boil it down it is a matter of choice.
So here's the rub...
What does someone have to lose by choosing to believe in Jesus Christ? I mean really, what do they really have to lose? Previous identity? Dearly held beliefs? Friends? Maybe some family? Getting drunk or stoned? Does it automatically place you in a cult of crazies who are obnoxious and wear funny hairdos and weird looking makeup? (I know, I know, I seen some of that nonsense on TV).
I could go on and on but I think these are valid questions. What does one have to lose and to gain? Methinks we take ourselves too seriously sometimes and what we hold near and dear and cherish about our beliefs sometimes needs to be thrown against a wall and shattered into zillions of little pieces and put back together again and again and again.
I don't know dude. Work a 3rd step or something. Turn your life and will over just to see what happens.


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The Man With No Band

7/8/2008 1:18:45 PM


Fair piece Jack ... I have turned my life over ... and to God ... just not quite the same way as Christian beliefs ... and I am very happy too ... but I will continue to seek and learn, cuz it's fun ... :)

I would like to address one more point to ponder and then I must log off for a bit ....

Early in this blog I brought up a question about a child being denied the right of Heaven if that child had never heard the word of God ....

Terry's response was something to the effect that in the Christian belief no child is omitted from the gates of heaven ...

Doesn't the Bible say that we are ALL God's children ? ... Where is the age of cut off ? ... Is it 18 because we say that is when one becomes an adult ? ... Is it 21 as that's when one is considered an adult in some places ? ... is it 16, 13, 30, 90 ? ... In the early days of the Bible people lived to be 800 years old ... Wouldn't that still make a 100 year old man a child ?

I've enjoyed this but must run ...


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Kevin White

7/8/2008 1:19:22 PM


"If it's outside of the physical laws, its conjecture ... make believe ... made up shit ... until proven or discovered otherwise. In the time of man, the supernatural remains stubbornly unsubstantiated."

Hence, it means nothing."

I think this quote is total bullshit. Kev ...


As a stand alone quote, out of context, I agree that it certainly sounds like complete B.S. Jeff.

Let me paraphrase myself in further clarification:

"That which does not exist, cannot be substantiated."

It's another way of saying, "there's no such things as ghosts ... no matter how hard or long people have tried to prove there are. In the time of man, even with all the technological advances, it hasn't happened ... and likely never will."

Kev-


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never never band

7/8/2008 1:30:22 PM


surrender , or even your "3 step" scenario is distinct from what modern Christians are talking about.
Surrender can be an agnostic act, it doesn't require that you believe in God Men who roll away stones and speak in riddles...
It just means that you accept that you don't know.
In a sense surrender is the opposite of "Faith" and "Faith" is what the christian is asking us to have.

Faith is accepting indefensible metaphysical propositions as fact,
a dangerous thing to do.....
It leads to cognitive dissonance at best and Monotheistic Bigotry at worst..
You'd think we'd have figure at least that much out by now.

As for life after Death..
That seems like a contradiction in terms on the face of it. We'll have to re-define both Life and Death for that question to even be meaningful...

S.


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SILVERWOODSTUDIO

7/8/2008 3:51:57 PM


this is interesting but haven't we come some way from the original thesis?

Not believing in "Religion" does not neccesarily mean not believng in----" a power that cannot be explained"

Natural vs Supernatural was fun------- and illuminating in some ways but too finite for me!

For me ---religious books be they the Bible or Koran or whatever have mans sticky fingerprints all over them!

As Kev said ---take man out of the equation---and what religion would the plants , insects, animals and bacteria follow??

---but I do believe there is something beyond science---like aroha ---OR LOVE--in an unambiuous sense -

love is light---light is truth ---truth is love-----Van De Velden


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SILVERWOODSTUDIO

7/8/2008 4:15:10 PM


---oops --left out the G--word

God is love---love is light----light is truth!


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Kevin White

7/8/2008 4:53:12 PM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 5:01:05 PM


What folks might find curious to learn about my background is that I was a devoted young Catholic altar boy for years and years ... the Irish family first born boy, on his way to the seminary ...

I loved the church in my youth .. which prompted me to devote study and thought to it ...

... bible school ... the works ...

Kind of a reversal ... don't ya think?

Kev-


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LyinDan

7/8/2008 5:58:36 PM


Sounds like you were jilted by God, thus the reason you've closed the door so tightly. Jilted by ESP, too, I guess.

Those bastards!


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never never band

7/8/2008 6:12:21 PM ---- Updated 7/8/2008 6:17:08 PM


:)

I was an Episcopalian alter boy and then at 13 I started trying different churches on my own..
Got Re-Baptised at Redeemer Temple, Got discouraged and started to doubt the existence of God, or Rather doubted that there was a God that gave a damn for Humanity... hung out with Hari Krishnas in Washington park,

at 14 I Discovered LSD and Psilocybin, which made religion look like kid stuff...
That led to looking for the actual mystical experience ,Hung out with New Age occultists and spent a year reading and studying...which in turn landed me in the "hospital" for 18 months between my 16th and 18th birthdays...
:-)

heh..

I think what I see now is that we don't even agree on the definition of the terms we employ when discussing this sort of thing and so we talk in circles.

When Jesus or Allah or YHVH ot Ahura Mazda etc. come into the discussion we begin to employ metaphysical propositions that aren't defensible by any conventional means so we're not really using Empircism, so in a sense we're not saying anything meaningful.
Trying to discuss something like this without making untestable or indefensible metaphysical assertions seems very difficult.

but we could try..
we may come up with something interesting.

I'm interested in the DMT molecule and it's role in what have come to be known as "near death experiences"
Also, having spent time with friends who were dying I've witnessed a fascinating process or internal reconciliation that I think is compelling mainly in that it has no obvious evolutionary advantage and yet seems to be widespread and may have been the inspiration for writings like "the book of the dead" etc.

I guess what I'm saying is there seems to be something really interesting going on with the death experience that crosses all cultural and religious boundaries and is likely more in line with a true natural process separate from moralizing and proselytizing. That's pretty important stuff to my mind because it seems to be our fear of death and our misunderstanding of the process that makes us so vulnerable to religion.
Really at a time like this when Competing religious dogmas threaten to destroy life on earth discussions like this deserve a great deal of attention.
I wonder if it can be discussed in strictly secular terms?


s.









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the kozy king

7/8/2008 10:42:23 PM



http://iacmusic.com/songs.aspx?SongID=63682&ArtistID=55165


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7/9/2008 12:45:21 AM ---- Updated 7/9/2008 12:47:03 AM


Is this where Kevin breaks down crying and finds God again ? I don't think so...


Stick it out Kev !!! I'm rootin' for ya !!! Yeah ! Go Kev Go Kev !!!!


I really think Kev would love to believe in all that stuff, but can't find a way to justify the fairy tale as there does seem to be allot of damage control needed in doing so. One may deny what one does not know by what one knows, but the more one knows, the more one doesn't, or is that a myth ignorance started to bring down the professors of the world because an A was never on the menu. Sounds clever, but may in fact be a load of donkey crap after the orgy.

I believe in life after life after life after life and before and sideways and beyond our linear understanding of time and physical nature. But that is neither here nor there... but the truth is that life is precious regardless of what may have come before or may be coming after... we must find a way to create our heavens right here and now while we are alive, and not just for ourselves, but for each other... and many atheists adhere to this value more than those that believe they might actually have another shot at it ... or so it would seem. In the end it doesn't really matter what we believe but rather how we live. Most people rarely live what they claim to believe, but I believe that how we truly live our lives is our greatest and most sincere prayer of all... much like how we all sing a song... the greatest singers are those that do so with their heart, and leave a little room in there for harmony. Hopefully, there is room enough for many diverse prayers... and ideas.

I respect your viewpoints Kev and admire your sticktuitiveness.

I can only discuss life and death for so long until one or the other will inevitably and quite forcibly come and make me experience it for myself. Both terrifying and equally necessary to maintain this flame that burns within.





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Conversation Suicide

7/9/2008 1:16:03 AM


I'm with you cracka! It's all about the here and now! Of course, easy to say, hard to practice, but I'm tryin' every day. Kind of an existentialist viewpoint. ACTION is what it's all about.

and Talking... IF IT'S in creative blog comments like yours! -phlegm


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Kevin White

7/9/2008 8:08:31 PM


Microsoft is the devil, and Vista is the spawn of the devil.

Over the last hour, I lovingly crafted a brilliant piece of writing that outlined my whole philosophy … pressed “submit” and …

Nothing … totally lost … I can only blame the devil wanting to avert publishing the truth of things … wait …

So, here in poor remembrance, is my second chance reply. This appears more as an outline of the first, than the really clever prose I used originally:

“Hi, I’m Kev, and I’d like to confess I’m a happy person.

I know that I will die, because I know it will happen. I don’t know what will happen after I die, but I suspect I’ll do what everything else does. I believe all life means “just life” … and my own life is similar to all other life on this wonderful world.

I do think, regardless, that being atop the food chain affords us luxuries of thought that we’d not be afforded further down.

I probably killed at least 4,000 other living things on the planet today by accident. I didn’t mean to, but I didn’t notice it either. I drove … I mowed the lawn … I walked … I swatted …

Yet, being atop said food chain allows an arrogance of thinking that we’re above all the rest of life on the planet. We’re not looking daily over our shoulder at what’s going to jump and eat us. Good for us.

I think we’re merely another point on the map of the natural. Eliminate all life, eliminate us. We’re part of the mix, not the mixer … for those who appreciate the analogy.

So what happens when we’re eliminated from the mix?

Well, same thing as the 4000 things I accidentally eliminated from the mix today. We become, like just about everything else on the planet … fertilizer … from which the next crop grows.

I really hope so, because if I end up in Beetle heaven, it’s going to be REALLY crowded!

Arrogance, and good for us that we might even understand the meaning of the word, leads us to believe we’re different.

We are. We’re not.

Speaking of fertilizer … this post should grow a few replies …

Anjuli, you are sweet of heart …

Go Kev!

Best,

Kev-


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Conversation Suicide

7/9/2008 8:47:07 PM ---- Updated 7/9/2008 8:49:29 PM


Wow Kevin. Heavy stuff. If we grabbed onto that everyday, how would we still function? The sheer arrogance it takes to survive in this world alone, would make being conscious of all the creatures & plants we are indirectly or directly murdering each day almost an impossibility.
You are totally right of course. But the only ones who can successfully live with social consciousness like this every day, DON'T drive cars, or eat meat, or play electric instuments and fritter away natural resources & glutonize on food, and are usually off on a mountain top meditating until they can reach the great nothingness or nirvana or somekind of oneness with the cosmos.

Uh... I love so many aspects of this life, but I'm a hypocrite like the rest of us, in that I can't LIVE with thoughts like your character's, invading my brain and inhibiting my actions for daily living.

BUT definitely good stuff. I suspect after we die which as you've established WELL already, we all will; this perplexing miasma of being a part of the horrible & selfish top of this world's food chain, will all make sense.

Or maybe a higher life form, that is at the top of the food chain within the solar system or galaxy or even UNIVERSE, which this rock is a part of, will come and devour/murder us, and the great dance of the afterlife & what lays beyond will ensue...

Reincarnation? I'm in you and you're in me? We're all part of the same Energy? Heaven/ HELL/ Nirvana/ Paradise or HADES? Don't know.

Just wanna make the best of what seems to make sense at this point in my growth as a human being. And I'm CERTAIN, as arrogant as that may be, that MUSIC/ART & listening to the muses for the creation of said artforms, is supposed to be a part of why I'm here. That and LOVE of family & friends, and at whatever level I can muster, Love of this l'il ole rock and ALL its inhabitants.

This being said, I Just WANNA ROCK! -Phlegm


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LyinDan

7/9/2008 8:50:24 PM


Well, you're the only life that can contemplate your own death. At least, as far as we know.

Or do you suppose those multitudes of blades of grass you massacred felt the same way?

So what, either way, eh?

As you pass from this mortal coil, and meld with all those blades, maybe they'll tell you what.

Well, I don't think we survive death as "us" either. But I'm not ruling it out.


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Conversation Suicide

7/9/2008 9:09:51 PM


yup. as usual succinct yet sarcastically on target. note to self: learn art of brevity from lyin dan.


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LyinDan

7/9/2008 9:19:08 PM


Have I ever told ya my dog story? This thread has everything else.


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/9/2008 9:23:30 PM ---- Updated 7/9/2008 9:26:22 PM


As I was snorkeling in Maui last week, I was quite aware I was not on top of any Food Chain. As I raised my head to clear my mask above water, I was attacked by my own flipper, of course at that moment I was sure it was a Tiger Shark wanting a late morning snack.

I could not enjoy snorkeling this trip....I think it has something to do with my Son and not wanting him to be a Fatherless child. Mortality is on my mind a lot these days, My Mom is valiantly fighting a Cancer that is slowly advancing. For this, I want to know there is something more after we leave this world.

Is it a blessing or a curse to be able to contemplate Life and death? I guess the best we can do is to leave on our own terms with no regrets. Live life, don't sweat the small shit....Breathe. We all swim with Sharks daily..... Learn to poke them in the eye, and if they bite, pray they miss an artery.

Jeff


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never never band

7/9/2008 10:42:27 PM


I mentioned this in my previous post but I think sometimes the way I write causes me to be misunderstood...

I have spent the last weeks and days with two dear friends as they died and what really struck me was an amazing process of reconciliation that took place within them.
This amazes me and makes me excited in a way because I can't explain it rationally. My atheism is challenged by this because the process serves no obvious evolutionary advantage.
I don't mean reconcile like paying debts or dealing out apologies, this is an entirely internal thing and it's followed by a peace and resignation that's really amazing.
why?
Why do we feel the need to resolve internal struggles before we die?
These people were both gentle and kind and lived good lives, so the process was about internal cognitive struggles.....I think.

One friend had so many people trying to save him, he was dying of leukemia that he had fended off once and had come back again and he had decided not to do Chemo but to try to just eat a macrobiotic diet and beathe and...see what happened.
His family were sort of hippies and they had some means, a lot of people tried to save him! shaman were brought by and Bhuddhist monks were consulted, Cuenderas mixed potions and what not and he bore all of this with a good deal of grace and kindness.
I remember telling him near the end, You're not gonna make it if you don't do the Chemo..He said "yea...I know, I'm ready to go now". I asked why he was seeing all these shaman and such then and he said "I just want everyone to feel they did all they could, I don't want anyone to regret...."
He was hanging on in considerable pain just to let all of his loved ones go through their process!!!
I'd be proud to die so gracefully, I wonder what level of courage I'll really muster in those last days...assuming I don't get snuffed out like a candle.
Right at the end he started to drift, this was that process I was talking about, he'd tell me about some things, but mostly I could just see that things were sorting out for him, he almost started to glow....

I know the DMT molecule plays a major role in our neuro chemistry at this point, and having had the most profound experiences of my life under the influence of that drug I have some inclination as to what might be going on...it's the "Why" that puzzles me.
Why does the brain use these recepter cells at this time?
Visions and incredible cognitive leaps, we've all heard the stories from "near death" experiences and some us have even picked these locks by ingesting these substances deliberately...
but why?
It seems there is a neuro chemical device for enlightenment wired right into us...but it's so bizarre to my way of thinking that it's so closely associated with the end of out lives...

?

Bizarre and curiously hopeful....
I love a good mystery, and this is the BIG one, I don't have any opinion as to what happens to us, if there is a continuity of consciousness or some manner of awareness that persists.
I am puzzled that our reactions and processes in our final hours seem so ....mystical...?

S.


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Conversation Suicide

7/9/2008 10:50:45 PM


Miraculous story. I've experienced similar moments of enlightment, and am always saddened by how easy it is to forget them.
These mystical meanderings, that most of us have experienced at some point in life, are what makes me believe each soul has something to offer the world. Including my own.

Truly touching blog comment from Never Never Band


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Kevin White

7/10/2008 5:55:06 AM ---- Updated 7/10/2008 6:19:47 AM


... and he said "I just want everyone to feel they did all they could, I don't want anyone to regret...."
He was hanging on in considerable pain just to let all of his loved ones go through their process!!! ...


My father's words to me, almost verbatim, as to why he endured on ... so everyone else could adjust to his passing. He was a devoutly religious man, and had long come to his own terms with the inevitable.

Kev-


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Kevin White

7/10/2008 6:16:18 AM ---- Updated 7/10/2008 6:18:46 AM


Well, you're the only life that can contemplate your own death. At least, as far as we know.

Or do you suppose those multitudes of blades of grass you massacred felt the same way?

So what, either way, eh?

As you pass from this mortal coil, and meld with all those blades, maybe they'll tell you what.

Well, I don't think we survive death as "us" either. But I'm not ruling it out.


I find it fascinating that the grass and I share the same DNA, separated by a mere few twists on the chemical chain.

There have been interesting shows recently on TV about the search for the origin of life ... how did life originate on this basically dead rock ... from the theories of spontaneous generation to the primordial soup ... intriguing stuff.

Regarding "surviving" death:

I recognize all things are possible ... but also that certain conclusions are more probable than others.

Best,

Kev-


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Kevin White

7/10/2008 6:38:21 AM ---- Updated 7/10/2008 12:17:32 PM


...I know the DMT molecule plays a major role in our neuro chemistry at this point,

Are you familiar with the research on the mushrooms as it relates to the God Network in the brain?

Perhaps that's the natural mechanism/process of the brain that kicks in in such times in order to deal w/ the harsh reality?

I've no idea, but it's intriguing ...

Kev-


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qelizabeth

7/10/2008 9:16:20 AM


I reached nirvana once, I think. It was really cool.


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LyinDan

7/10/2008 9:30:00 AM


Humans are built to reach conclusions, even when they aren't necessarily warranted.
Some people come to them at the least little evidence, some study hard to try and figure things out. Either way, a veritable multitude of wrong conclusions get fixated. Having reached a viewpoint, some will stick by them till you waterboard them into another one, and some are subject to change them like flies choosing dungheaps.

I try not to reach firm conclusions on subjects that have a basically unknowable taint to them. Insufficient data.

In such cases, it may make sense to choose the view makes you happier. As long as it doesn't make you do stupid stuff.


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qelizabeth

7/10/2008 10:55:25 AM


Where's Steve? . . . Steve?


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Kevin White

7/10/2008 12:28:52 PM


True ... our brains have a core need to organize, compartmentalize, and make quick conclusions ... in certain cases, pigeon hole.

For instance, just think of a person who approaches wearing plaid golf pants and a feather boa.

Quick conclusions ... but not necessarily correct conclusions ...

Kev-


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Hugh Hamilton

7/10/2008 4:02:13 PM


I dunno if there's life after death. I'm wondering if there's life after Aven.
xxoo,
H


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Black Velvet Lace

7/10/2008 4:48:15 PM


Wow I go on vaca for a week or so and look what you all get yourselves into! :D


Interesting thread. A few things from Steve's post caught my eye, so I'll play devil's advocate (no pun intended.. OK.. OK.. pun intended)

"The most difficult belief i think would be that of the fundamentalist Christian who lives a life tortured by whether they're gonna be saved to go to heaven or condemned to an afterlife in an interminable firey hell with satan.."

Because of their theology, this is really more of a Catholic anxiety, *do my good deeds outweigh my bad enough to get me into heaven*? I should know, I spent many Catholic nights tossing/turning/sweating over that one. But like KK said, fundamentalist Christianity isn't about a system of checks and balances of what you do wrong or right. It teaches something different.. that once you cross the line of faith (and it's about a true change of heart guys, not just lips flappin') your eternal future is secured because you are literally adopted into a relationship with an eternal God. Good deeds/bad deeds ending a true believers eternal relationship aren't any more a part of it than they would be in determining whether or not you are really your earthly father's biological son. If you are repentant, you are secured and your past/present/future sins are forgiven. Don't get me wrong, someone who just pays lip service and lives vilely without a regenerated heart is no more a Christian than a nonbeliever, no matter what they claim, but the slips and falls of a true believer do not terminate their adoption, because biblical Christianity is about a relationship, not a system of religion.

"Stranger still that i've more compassion in my little finger than the fundamentalist God has in his entire universe.. Could you judge and condemn someone to an eternity of unbearable suffering in the paedophilic monsterous hands of uncle satan-without giving them the opportunity to learn from their transgressions-for making the mistakes as a human being we all do?"

Steve, what would you feel about a pedophile who molests your little brother? Or a rapist that does just that to your sister? A murderer who thoughtlessly kills your dad for the five bucks in his wallet? An embezzler who drains the pension fund at your work and leaves you with an absolute balance of zero at age 66? Could you judge them? I have to admit I probably would. Could you have compassion for them? I have to admit I really don't think I could. But God not only can, He does this even while they are performing their hideous acts. Someone mentioned rejecting the idea that a murderer could be saved while a good, gentle person who rejects Jesus could go to hell. My human mind flirts with rejecting the notion too because.. a) It makes more human sense to me to live by the checks and balances and b) because I really cannot fathom a God who could love a sinner like that.. unless I sit and think about how His grace and my faith in it gave ME a free pass. Then I have something to really consider.

xox
~Lace~


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never never band

7/10/2008 6:23:59 PM


sigh..

well, so much for discussing death in secular terms...
or discussing death at all for that matter.

Lace, your post has at least 14 indefensible metaphysical assertions in it.
What an amazingly elaborate scenario, it would make for a good fantasy novel, but it's not meaningful to anyone who hasn't already downloaded the program.
If you substitute the word "God" with "Tooth Fairy" and read your post back you may get a glimpse of how it looks to me.
in fact lets try it with this Macabre closing paragraph..

. Could you have compassion for them? I have to admit I really don't think I could. But the tooth fairy not only can, the Tooth Fairy does this even while they are performing their hideous acts.

or

Someone mentioned rejecting the idea that a murderer could be saved while a good, gentle person who rejects the Tooth Fairy could go to hell. My human mind flirts with rejecting the notion too because.. a) It makes more human sense to me to live by the checks and balances and b) because I really cannot fathom aTooth Fairy who could love a sinner like that.. unless I sit and think about how The Tooth Fairies grace and my faith in it gave ME a free pass. Then I have something to really consider.

do you see?
what if instead we substitute it with..
Puff the magic dragon?
or Satan?


All this moralizing is for not when we pass off the ultimate responsibility to some imaginary being....
Really, to come to terms with the fact that we are alone, and there is no God in evidence anywhere, and yet to choose to be kind, civic minded and work for the betterment of humanity the the rest of the planet, That is true Moral Courage!

S.



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LyinDan

7/10/2008 6:32:07 PM


Haha, I wasn't going to do this. Better you than me.

I will say though, that evidence for God (of some kind) is not completely absent. You sort of allude to that occasionally.


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Kevin White

7/10/2008 7:25:30 PM ---- Updated 7/10/2008 7:26:39 PM


God, if existing at all ... is in the wonderment of complexity of design of the tapestry ... it obviously boggles ... it's feckin' unreal ... the reality.

... or it may just be what it is ...

Best,

Kev


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Kevin White

7/10/2008 7:46:00 PM


btw ...

Since youth, I've been fascinated with many topics ... obviously. As such, I've continued to monitor things ...

I subscribe to several magazines in search of expansion of my low level general knowledge of things.

One is "Electronic Musician" ... for obvious reasons. Another is "Popular Science". I also do "Scientific American". I also get "Christian Science Monitor". Delivered at my office is "Rolling Stone" ... because I'm a libertarian liberal. I know ...

Yet, in this month's "Free Inquiry" ... there are several articles pertaining to this subject matter in particular. It is mostly written by philosopher atheists, which sometimes provides me with incredible insight ... other times, a lack of credulousness.

An article I just read (not available online) was ... "Why Is There a Universe at All, Rather than Just Nothing?" ...

There is also:

When is it time to go?

Why belief belongs in public life (and why non-believers should be glad)?

A Star has Gone Out (tribute to Arthur C. Clarke)

Biography of Stephen Hawking ...

... and a number of other very engaging articles ...

Knowledge is a process, not a grant. I'm still learning ...

Best,

Kev-


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Black Velvet Lace

7/10/2008 7:51:15 PM ---- Updated 7/10/2008 8:06:13 PM


Hey, Never Never,

Yah, I can see how biblical Christianity would look to you, or to any nonbeliever. Stupid. Grossly uninformed. Unenlightened. The apostle Paul once said that the *message of the cross IS foolishness* to the unbeliever, and I have to admit it wasn't all that long ago that it looked that way to me too. Well maybe not quite, I was more of an agnostic than I was atheist. I didn't deny God, I just didn't know if there was one, or if there was, why in the everloving hell he would do things the way people of religion told me He did. I mean honestly, how DOES it make earthly sense that a murderer could be given a pass at the pearly gates but a truly nice person could perish? To add to that, people of faith usually pretty much turned me off (I was going to say p*ssed me off but I'm just so *perfekt* now :P ). They seemed so self-righteous, some hypocritical (some were both in actual reality which made it even worse) and some just naive. But I also have to admit, I was riddled with existential angst. I had rather embraced the idea that death could be the end of it all.. finally total unconscious bliss. Christian heaven felt like a bizzare fairy tale and reincarnation the cruelest ideology imaginable to me anyway. But an unconscious end with the suffering, the anxiety, just over. I liked the idea. For some reason I couldn't sit still with that. As much comfort as that should have given me, I didn't have the kind of peace that surpasses all understanding that I do now.

But to address your last paragraph, I found that when I let myself *consider* that there just might be some truth to the gospel, I started to see God in places I hadn't before. Nature for one, considering it's precision and complexity, made me really stop and think. Later I found the verse that flatly says it is one way He reveals Himself. And in closing, there are atheists I actually do *like* more than some Christians I've come across. I'd have counted myself among the *moral agnostics* of the world. I had ethics, values, integrity, worked to the best of my ability for the betterment of those I served. I just had no personal peace.

xox
~Lace~


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Black Velvet Lace

7/10/2008 7:56:24 PM


PS Steve, I sure hope I didn't come off as moralizing at you. Wasn't my intention at all.

xox
~Lace~


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The Man With No Band

7/10/2008 8:13:12 PM


Welcome home Lace ! ... you beautiful girl ...


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Steve April

7/10/2008 9:10:40 PM


Ya-y Lace.

I hear ya. Life experience trumps logic.

"more things in heaven and earth than are dreamt of in your philosophys Horatio..." (hamlet to his best pal.)


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never never band

7/10/2008 9:37:24 PM


well, you're right in that there is a complexity and astonishing implicate order in nature that does look...sorta Godish? Goddy?

but it's a HUGE leap from that to accepting the Bible or the Koran or any such book of riddles as the word and will of God!!!!

I mean, just because a gal smiles at you doesn't mean she wants to have your children..or finding a penny on the ground doesn't indicate a new stream of income
It's silly to draw such elaborate conclusions from so little information.


It's just such a huge leap,
These books so like so many other stories we've created, the New Testament reads like a typical 3 act passion play....A rather good one, but still just a dramatic writing.
That Hamlet that we all so often quote puts the bible to shame! And ol' Bill wrote a dozen pieces that good!
we're really good at this sort of stuff!!!
we are Myth generators, and meaning makers.
Pattern recognition is a basis of our cognition! so like Dan says it's likely that we will generate 'meaningful' patterns from the information in our environment!
That doesn't make them "true"

I know there is great comfort in believing in some enduring soul, some continuity of consciousness. We're out here falling through this abyss of stars and we feel alone and often afraid....but we should be careful how we deal with that fear. Sometimes it's the monsters we create that are the real danger.

s.

s.


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/10/2008 9:52:55 PM ---- Updated 7/10/2008 9:55:03 PM


"It's just such a huge leap,"


aww this conversation is circular..... it's such a huge leap...of.. what??? .I don't know....

Faith??? :)


"A leap of faith, in its most commonly used meaning, is the act of believing in something without, or in spite of, available empirical evidence. It is an act commonly associated with religious belief as many religions consider faith to be an essential element of piety"


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Conversation Suicide

7/10/2008 11:04:50 PM


Wow. This blog is still goin'? I think Jeff is right-- we've gone full circle and come back round again. uh... bottomline -- NOBODY knows about the afterlife, 'cause none of us up in this artist community has died and come back, as far as we know.


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the kozy king

7/10/2008 11:19:17 PM



Lace:

I'm so happy you came forward with some standard christianty (as did Jack earlier on).

I notice you use the word "regenerate" -- a word that involves doctrines which are hotly debated between different groups of christians.

Are you in "at this level" -- so to speak? It's true that many "believers" are content with a "fairy tale" and they will even get indignant sometimes if you suggest that they study seriously.

But I thought your posts sounded quite knowledgeable.

Kozy


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never never band

7/10/2008 11:28:15 PM


well yea...duh.
As long as death is treated like some fairy tale there's no talking about it.
That's why I think it's more interesting to discuss it in strictly secular terms, but people too afraid to do this.

It's a shame...because it's an important subject.
How we face our death and the death of those we love how our fear and uncertainty may be effecting our choices and our logic...

A whole lot of who and what we are is laying just beneath the surface of our attitudes about death, but if you start to peel away at the facade people tend to get very very uncomfortable.

The reason the discussions are circular is because religion is based on circular logic, a strange loop in our reasoning.
This is deliberate, religion exploits weaknesses in our pattern recognition....It's designed to do this. Without this parlor trick of circular reasoning the whole house of cards would come tumbling down.


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the kozy king

7/11/2008 12:01:37 AM



All religions have some empirical underpinning, and all religions are insulted if they are dismissed off-hand by the expression "leap of faith".

Christianity has it's own empirical line of thought called "apologetics". I find the knowledge and application of religious logic (from Plato to Jonathon Edwards) to be so compelling that christianity does make all other options look like "a leap of faith" sooner or later.

As I said before, I'll discuss these matters exhaustively point-by-point with anyone who prefers to contact me privately at: tornblom@sasktel.net

Win, lose or draw, one-on-one is more effective.


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Steve Ison

7/11/2008 12:29:57 AM ---- Updated 7/11/2008 12:43:54 AM


"Where's Steve? . . . Steve?"

*waving*

I've been enjoying this blog too much just reading n digesting all the comments and how its evolved in all these brilliant n colourful directions without feeling the need to post..
That could also be thru laziness a bit-and the fact the likes of Satch,Lyin' Dan,Anjuli,and Sam have covered things i'd want to say with style,grace,conciseness and wit far more eloquently than i ever could..
I've enjoyed Kevins and Never Never band s contribution as devils advocates(so to speak lol) too

Terry and Lace(no-i didn't think you were preaching)...I don't wanna dis anyone's faith-and i've got total respect for you and what you believe if it makes your life richer.
I can't travel that metaphysical highway with Uncle Satan tho...I just can't

Thanks for such kind words about my music Anjuli :)..I agree with you-the magical experience of life is absoloutly the main thing in the end.I personally dunno how someone could see the blue sky flickering thru the trees on a still day in summer and NOT feel totally enchanted.......
Whatever the scource of that wonder isn't really important to me if i'm honest..Its the sense of freedom and beauty i love..


Did matter create intelligence..Or Intelligence create matter?

Thats a good ponder-on....


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/11/2008 12:34:49 AM


It is no wonder that so many people have died as a direct result of religious conflict. In this thread I sense resentment, anger, indignation, insecurity, security, trust, mistrust, ....

Why can't faith and religion remain a personal, beautiful endeavor? Instead it often gets twisted and confrontational. Religion versus religion, sect versus sect, believer versus non-believer, secular versus non-secular, conformist versus non-conformist.

Kindness and Goodness is not governed by doctrine or faith...nor is evil. Each may be guided by principle, but they remain personal acts.

There are over six billion souls on this planet....each must find what works for them, its a personal journey. "In the end you search for something only you can find..Peace of Mind" Had to put one of my song lyrics in there, seemed to be going that way :)

Anyway, I have touched on the concept of Respect and tolerance earlier in this thread.... I believe without them, religion is deeply lacking and hypocritical.

Regards...


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Steve Ison

7/11/2008 12:39:03 AM


"It is no wonder that so many people have died as a direct result of religious conflict. In this thread I sense resentment, anger, indignation, insecurity, security, trust, mistrust, ...."

Dunno if you've been reading a totally different blog Jeff-From what i see people have been pretty respectful,tolerant n friendly with each other here-especially given the nature of the subject matter..


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/11/2008 12:50:24 AM ---- Updated 7/11/2008 12:51:21 AM


Of course nothing is blatant on this thread, and everyone has remained respectful. I have listed things I get a "sense" of reading through the responses. Of course its just a sense, and I could be wrong. Hard to really see intent in words.

Overall I am speaking in general historical terms when it comes to conflict at the hands of religion. There is no denying that..... it is a complete contradiction of the underlying message.


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Conversation Suicide

7/11/2008 12:56:38 AM


"especially given the nature of the subject matter..." DEFINITELY. In the REAL world- difference in Religion can generate WARS. Here on IAC the topic of POLITICS & ECONOMICS is actually more controversial.
People have been VERY cool, in dealing with the other subject we're supposed to avoid. Aside from some very intelligent & well-thought out comments, I feel GOOD to know there's so many BROAD-minded individuals on IAC. -phlegm


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Nerol

7/11/2008 5:17:17 AM


If God really existed:

1. The world would be perfect

2. Life would be fair

3. Babies wouldn't starve to death through no fault of their own

4. Katrinas and tsunamis wouldn't wipe out tons of innocent life

etc etc etc...

If God exists, and all this shit still happens, then God allows this stuff to happen. Nice guy!

I'll even take it further....if God exists, and God is omnipotent/omniscient, therefore knowing all that's going to happen in advance, then he knew in advance about the tsunamis, the starving babies, the suffering on the planet, and still created the whole mess anyway. Nice guy!

And even further yet.....since God knew what would be the blight of creation before it was even created, the emergence of evil, etc., he did it anyway. That means that in the largest sense, God, all omnipotent, is responsible for everything, including evil. Because you are are either omnipotent or not. To say that evil exists against God's will is to say that something other than God's will can come to pass. If that's the case, then what good is God's will?

It's all a giant mess. For me, it's easier to believe there is no God than to accept a God that has so many imperfections.


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satch

7/11/2008 6:00:49 AM


Jeff said "Of course nothing is blatant on this thread, and everyone has remained respectful. I have listed things I get a "sense" of reading through the responses. Of course its just a sense, and I could be wrong. Hard to really see intent in words."

Problem is, Jeff, your expression is exactly that - it's your interpretation of all of our words... our words as understood by your mind... not necessarily the meaning or sense that any of us intended. And therein lies the root of much of the debate one sees on-line and experiences in real life. The filters of our own experience cloud the meaning of what we read and hear and see - each of us has a unique perspective based on our unique life experiences, we each see the same thing and interpret it and respond to it differently.

So, I say with all due respect, these discussions are like parallel lines - ne'er the twain shall meet.


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the kozy king

7/11/2008 7:16:53 AM



"The world should be perfect" C,mon Loren do you really think there's no answer to that old gripe? People fuck the world up because God allows everyone to do whatever they want (what a prick, eh?). Do you want Him directing us like robots?

"I don't like Satan so he can't exist." Steve, is that for real? Satan fucked up because God let His most powerful friend do whatever he wanted (what a jerk God is). maybe God should have directed him like a robot too.

"Religions cause wars?" People cause wars, Jeff -- your country just started one to get some oil, so I don't believe in oil? Or refuse to use it? Same logic.


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Kevin White

7/11/2008 7:56:14 AM


The devil made 'em do it ...


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Bob Elliott

7/11/2008 8:30:43 AM


It seems clear life is something that happens in bodies, and so is death. Afterlife is fantasy because people can't get their heads around the idea that they have an ending. We can easily grasp a dead squirrel is over, but we shudder at the the idea of a human ending.

But we do.


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LyinDan

7/11/2008 8:48:49 AM


Yup, Satch, everyone operates on their own wavelength. Due to different life experiences as well as different physical wiring.

It's not hopeless to distill a few commonalities from all this blather, though.

Heck, this thread might even start a few people on the philosophical investigation route.


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the kozy king

7/11/2008 9:18:08 AM



The devil never made anybody do anything -- free will is a real power given to humans. Rocks, trees ,animals don't have it. But the devil can't make them do anything either. He's a dog on a chain, just don't get to close.

Is there a squirrel heaven, maybe a squirrel hell too? I dunno. What do you think Murly?


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LyinDan

7/11/2008 9:21:19 AM


I told my grass it had grown enough, but it didn't listen.


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7/11/2008 9:28:33 AM


"The devil never made anybody do anything"

Okay. If you want to take credit for what you did (and you know what I'm talking about), god bless you. bwahhahah


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the kozy king

7/11/2008 9:39:35 AM



We need a Larry W. Johnson sketch of Squirrel Hell.


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/11/2008 9:56:01 AM ---- Updated 7/11/2008 10:04:31 AM


"Religions cause wars?" People cause wars, Jeff your country just started one to get some oil, so I don't believe in oil? Or refuse to use it? Same logic."

Sorry, I am missing your logic Kozy, Please read up on what I said, I am speaking of religious conflict. Don't give me the guns don't kill people logic. Are you going to deny thousands if not millions have died in the name of religion and religious conflict???If so, please get your history from somewhere other then the good book.

I still stand by the sense I get in this thread, of course it is my personal interpretation, what else do I have to go by? Unless of course I am told what to think and follow without question. Its a civil thread, but there is a fair amount of resentment and defensivness.

I mean no disrespect to anyone, on the contrary.

As for "My country" starting a war for Oil? Really? Wow I hope I get some of it quick as I am paying over $500.00 per month in gas over here in "My country"

"The devil never made anybody do anything free will is a real power given to humans"

This is another contradiction to me. If we are given free will by god, and an ability to think, reason, and make decisions, why then are we condemned if we do not give ourself to Jesus if our free will points us in another direction? I am back to my Murderer versus good person conflict.



Peace





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the kozy king

7/11/2008 10:01:18 AM



Jeff:

I know my post was too much of a confrontation with you. I did understand what you were saying. It was more of a defense against a general misconception. Sorry, I definitely blew that one.

Bad news is I'm working on a few hours sleep. after welding late in the night on an oil rig. Good news is I'm taking the day off an am really enjoying some "live" blogging.

Terry


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/11/2008 10:06:56 AM


AWWW OIL!!!!!! The devils blood :) Get that oil!!!


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never never band

7/11/2008 10:19:20 AM ---- Updated 7/11/2008 10:29:37 AM


Satan..

Actually, Judaism wasn't even a dualist belief system, it was the influence of Persian dualism that gave rise to the invention of Satan..
these notions are noticably absent in the oldest writings from before and during the exile, as is this rosy afterlife stuff. The Torah and the five books of Moses tell us that after death both righteous and sinful souls descend to some murky shadow world called Sheol. The Lord is Autonomous and has no adversary......
It was exposure to Persia that gave rise to the concepts of "life after death" and "resurrection" reward, punishment and even the notion of Heaven are completely absent from the founding books of Judaism and don't appear until during and after the Captivity. The whole shebang is Zarathustrian!
In fact mainstream Judaism still remains a bit ambivalent about all of that but Christianity Loves It!!
In original Hebrew belief there is no independent force of Evil either, that is a Zarathustrian idea. The dualism of Zarathustras theology.
This being "Satan" first appears in the books of Job and Zachariah, Both passages written during the Babylonian Captivity or aft6er the Persian Liberation.
as Paul Kriwakzek points out in his brilliant book "In Search Of Zarathustra" there is a slow insertion and conversion to this elaborate dualism brought on by the exposure to Persian ideas. For instance in the second book of Samuel the Lord purposefully leads King David astray, but in the much later book of Chronicles this story is changed and now it's "Satan" who takes the blame.

These Persian ideas of Dualism and Resurrection where still hotly contested in the time of Jesus and were one of the main issues between Pharises and Seducees. The conversion of the original Hebrew theology to the elaborate dualism of later Judaism and the almost comically complex dualism of Christianity was a slow process of attrition between Zarathustrian and Hebrew ideas.
Indeed Saducees believed in Neither spirit nor angels or any of that..

Jews never really took to the idea of heaven and hell, it was the Christian and Muslim theologies that together built the theology of God and Devil, Punishment and Resurrection and Paradise.
Paradise is an Entirely Persian concept predating even the formation of Iran.

It's Zarathustrian...it's detailed and romantic and appeals to our sense of justice and our fear of death

and most importantly.......IT'S MYTHOLOGICAL!!!!!

S.


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the kozy king

7/11/2008 10:43:56 AM


Never X2

I believe I've already stated the bible is supposed to be a systematic revelation of God that becomes clearer as the story progresses.

And this isn't the first time I seen a bit of "reverse archeology" as you are proposing here. Same error has been made with the Philistines.

What I mean is that the Jews influenced the Persians and not the other way around. The Persians befriended the Jews and brought them out of slavery in Babylon and helped them to re-build Jerusalem. That is the connection between the two cultures.

The Persians and the Philistines and (the Greeks and Romans) are all gone. The Jews (and Arabs, also descendants of Abraham) are still here just as, SUPPOSEDLY, God said thousands of years ago.


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the kozy king

7/11/2008 11:38:00 AM ---- Updated 7/11/2008 11:45:31 AM


Other general arguments:

1. Did people cause disease? May I submit that part of the power of the (SUPPOSED) "fruit of evil" was biologically harmful to people?

2. Did people bring about natural disaster? May I submit that (SUPPOSEDLY) the earth's crust broke up during the SUPPOSED flood and changed all geology and climate? ("All the floodgates of the deep burst open")

And therefore "the whole earth groans under the weight of man's sin" (From germs to oceans)

3. But why does God allow these terrible, diseases, wars and disasters? Well, if God (SUPPOSEDLY) offers an easy way out into a perfect, everlasting life and if God (SUPPOSEDLY) knows who wants to be with HIm and who doesn't want to be with Him how in the heck can ANY suffering, death or judgement be unfair??!!!

I don't care whether you believe this or not is it that hard to figure out that it's a perfectly logical explanation that proves that God is not ever the author of evil?

4. How can an atheist or agnostic criticize a God they don't believe in? It's bizarre. Do they also hate the blind forces of the universe for causing all this evil that is around us?

5. Reincarnation? Why the need for it? Why are people screwing up? Who ordained that everybody be given as many chances as required? Who ordained that we must evolve into perfection? Reincarnation answers nothing.

6. The universe? It means "one word". What uttered that word? How brilliant of those primitive, ignorant Hebrews to claim it as their God. And even cleverer of those sneaky christians to claim that is was only the "Word" who could come to save the world as it's rightful creator. They sure got lucky there, because they have had a lot of stupid people fooled for a long time.

These are general arguments I hear or that i have to submit all the time and are not aimed at any individuals in this blog.


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never never band

7/11/2008 11:42:14 AM


the Persians are all gone?
Do you read the newspaper?

wow...Iran will be amazed to hear this....
So you're saying that the Jews suddenly came up with a theology of Dualism during the captivity and the Persian Liberation all on their own and it had nothing to do with the Persian Ideas it so remarkably resembles?

Surely it's Cyrus the Persian who first wrote the sort of Civic Minded, deeply thoughtful human rights and social awareness..
Are you aware that Darius commisioned cuniform writings persist on the walls of Behistun Monument ?
we know whos ideas were whos because of Archeology!!

Curious what you mean by Reverse Archeology..?
Where do you find Dualist Ideas in early Semitic writings?
Any that even come close to pre dating Zarathustrian concepts?
I think the archeological record makes it pretty clear just who is influencing who, as do even cursory comparisons of the books of Moses and Samuel to writings after the captivity.


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the kozy king

7/11/2008 11:49:41 AM



Ha, ha, good one!!

Of course the Persians are still around (or their descendents), but the same for the Jews (it's them or their descendents).

You got me there big time!!! shit!!

Give a few minutes to see if I can defend my other point...


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the kozy king

7/11/2008 12:01:10 PM ---- Updated 7/11/2008 1:06:35 PM


Deuteronomy 32:22

About the time of Moses. Before the birth of the Israeli nation at the time of Jacob.

Way before the contact with the Persians at the time of the Babylonian captivity.

Before the Persians? I might win this one if you can't prove the Persians existed before the Jews. And that the influence ran Persian to Jew and not Jew to Persian as I claim.

Also: my bible shows Satan appearing on Page 3. What bible are you reading?


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/11/2008 12:05:17 PM


It was fun to watch 300 Spartans kick the shit out of the Persians for a bit. :) Even if it was a bit of fantasy.. WE! ARE! SPARTA! SIX PACK ABS! :)


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the kozy king

7/11/2008 12:10:56 PM



Actually you'll have to prove the Persians existed before Moses.

By reverse archeology I mean that The archeologist claims that the Persians influenced the Jews when in (my supposed) reality the jews influenced the persians.

The same thing has been done with Philistine archeaology in the last year or so when some guy found Philistine gods in Jewish households and tried to make a name for himself by claiming that it was evidence that the Philistines influenced the jewish concept of God.

Of course Jewish writings have existed for thousands of years stating that their God was real pissed because the Jews took philistine women into their homes and adopted the Philistine gods as their own. it's a very common Old Testament theme.

Funny that people today are still so eager for any alternative to a single all-powerful God who claims absolute authority over His creation. They'll buy into anything and then claim the believers are the "gullible" ones.


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the kozy king

7/11/2008 12:12:34 PM



I love action movies. Is "300" worth getting?


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/11/2008 12:21:11 PM


It was made primarily with CG. It is an interesting watch.... if you like fighting with swords, blood, and gore you will dig it :)


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the kozy king

7/11/2008 12:23:49 PM



Sorry Never, I'm not reading too good this morning. I missed your comment about "cursory examinations" of Moses and Samuel and post-captivity writings proving the Persians invented heaven and hell. You'll have to point me to some actual examples. I've never noticed anything like that.

In particular please try to provide a reference that contradicts my claim that Deut. 32:22 is the first mention of hell and that it is not subject to Persian influence.

Rebuttal to Deut. 32:22 or I win this point :-)


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the kozy king

7/11/2008 12:29:44 PM



i'll love 300 then.

OK I gotta sign off and go see the doctor about this nasal infection that's been bugging me all week.

and hey! I'm a Canadian so it won't cost me a cent!

Whoo hoo!


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The Man With No Band

7/11/2008 12:34:18 PM


3. But why does God allow these terrible, diseases, wars and disasters? Well, if God (SUPPOSEDLY) offers an easy way out into a perfect, everlasting life and if God (SUPPOSEDLY) knows who wants to be with HIm and who doesn't want to be with Him how in the heck can ANY suffering, death or judgement be unfair??!!!

....Terry that goes right back to my point of "he who has not heard the Christian word" ... How gracious of God to make YOU aware of his word, while others are just screwed ... How totally out of reality that is.

4. How can an atheist or agnostic criticize a God they don't believe in? It's bizarre. Do they also hate the blind forces of the universe for causing all this evil that is around us?

... I believe in God, I feel him everyday, he doesn't need the printed word to enter my being, he comes naturally and doesn't set any "conditions" such as those made up in the Bible ... When Agnostics criticize God ... they don't sit around and do that ... they do that in conversation to "Christians" that are trying to ram their beliefs on them, they do that to make their points in the only way a Christian can understand ... arguing the Christian belief in a way that makes sense to them

5. Reincarnation? Why the need for it? Why are people screwing up? Who ordained that everybody be given as many chances as required? Who ordained that we must evolve into perfection? Reincarnation answers nothing.

... Why the need for religion ? Why the need for books ? ... Who ordained that everybody need anything but the natural forces around us ? Who ordained that we must believe in the words of men ? Religion answers nothing.


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the kozy king

7/11/2008 12:53:07 PM



Goddam it Sam I'm trying to get outa here for an appoinment? I wish I was a good-looking as Lace -- she got off easy :-)

3. Didn't I already tell you that God decides who had the chance to hear the word and who didn't? not me and you or anyone else. Christians are strictly commanded to judge only themselves and not "outsiders". (1 Corinthians 5: 11-12)

4. What are you talking about? You say DO believe in God. That entitles you perfectly to discuss Him on your own terms.

5. Quite the opposite. Very poorly phrased on my part. Sorry,man. Reincarnation is necessary for the same reason as religion (we've all done wrong, that's what I meant by "why are people screwing up. The concept of "sin" is the same). Who ordained.. etc? (If Ison were God he'd allow reincarnation so people could be rewarded or punished. See the similar motivatrions in all this? I believe the bible's answers cannot be contested on the basis of logic, personal experience, and history -- that's all. Shoot again, I haven't seen anything here to change my opinion.)

BYE!!!!!!!!

(for now)


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Nerol

7/11/2008 2:35:01 PM


Kozy said:

"The world should be perfect" C,mon Loren do you really think there's no answer to that old gripe? People fuck the world up because God allows everyone to do whatever they want (what a prick, eh?).

What a prick is right! If God exists, and knew the whole story in advance, then he knew that people would fuck the world before he even created it. And he did it anyway. Must have needed a good miniseries to watch, maybe?


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Nerol

7/11/2008 2:44:39 PM


Not to mention the fact that if the price for man's fall was already paid at Calvary 2000 years ago, then why is man still paying the price for sin? Maybe Calvary was only a down payment? A layway, if you will?


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Roach up your nose

7/11/2008 3:26:43 PM


The original definition of a sin was to have missed the mark. From this point of view, Man's greatest price of a sin is the judgment of it... and yet, we have every right to our own beliefs as varied as they are.

Satch - I like what you've said because it indicates how we are accountable for what we perceive...

"...it's your interpretation of all of our words... our words as understood by your mind... not necessarily the meaning or sense that any of us intended. And therein lies the root of much of the debate one sees on-line and experiences in real life. The filters of our own experience cloud the meaning of what we read and hear and see - each of us has a unique perspective based on our unique life experiences, we each see the same thing and interpret it and respond to it differently."


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the kozy king

7/11/2008 4:01:07 PM ---- Updated 7/11/2008 4:06:23 PM


N:

"What a prick is right! If God exists, and knew the whole story in advance, then he knew that people would fuck the world before he even created it. And he did it anyway. Must have needed a good miniseries to watch, maybe?"

My answer:

Of course God knew. (Sarcasm here now) I can imagine Him in eternity and infinity wondering if He should take create a race that he can enjoy forever because he's going to give them the same freedom that he has. Then he thinks: "No they'll just fuck it up and blame it on me". Then he thinks : "Well I could have a simple but mind-blowing plan to save them all that would astound the whole universe." Then he thinks: "No I'd better not, someone might not approve."

You also said:

"Not to mention the fact that if the price for man's fall was already paid at Calvary 2000 years ago, then why is man still paying the price for sin? Maybe Calvary was only a down payment? A layway, if you will?"

My answer:

What price is that, that we're still paying? Some kind of i'm-gonna-torture-everyone thing? Sick!!

No, It's he same price since God announced to the first man: "You will surely die." Same deal now, you will surely die, except that now you can have full and clear knowledge of how to live again.

Should God cut short His historic plan for humanity immediately after the big revelation of salvation and how easy it is? Nonsense. The longer our race continues the more of God's people there will be.

How many? "As many as the sands of the sea" and "as many as the stars in the sky" It could go on for sometime if this is literal.. Or it could be another simply expression of our limited human understanding. Either way, Christ's death finished death even from the beginning and Christ's death begins new life even today.

PS Hey weren't you nominated for best christian song. What's with that?


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LyinDan

7/11/2008 5:29:56 PM


No, that was Loren :)


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kranky king

7/11/2008 5:43:08 PM



"No, that was Loren :)"

Thanks naD.

Nerol must read that last post backwards.

gnik yknark


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Nerol

7/11/2008 5:48:11 PM


It's pretty simple, I recorded a solo piano arrangement of a hymn and people like it. :)

Kozy, the story goes that man (and woman) were in paradise where there was no suffering, no death, etc., until a snake talked to them and ruined God's plan. (I could comment here on how had God not created the snake in the first place, his plan wouldn't have been ruined...and how he knew in advance that the snake was going to ruin the plan, etc., but that's probably another thread).

Anyway, from that time on man was separated from God due to sin since God couldn't allow sin in heaven. Or so it says. Anyway, enter Jesus who paid the price for everyone, taking the sin of mankind unto himself on the cross, thereby making everything right with God and man again (I know as a father myself that I would never require blood as atonement for anything my kids did wrong, but that's probably another thread too).

So if man's sins have already been paid for, and everything is now right between man and God since Jesus paid the price for all of us, why is there still pain and suffering in the world? If that's just how it is, then what good was it for anyone to die for the sins of man?

Anyway, I'm on my way to see my 2-year-old niece, so I gotta run and will be back later. It's a shame she's doomed to hell, isn't it? Although, one would think that since Jesus already died for everyone, including her, her salvation should be pretty much guaranteed, right? Still, I know that at one point in her life someone is going to tell her that unless she accepts Jesus as her savior, she's going to eternal unquenchable lake of fire....


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Nerol

7/11/2008 5:56:29 PM


God may or may not exist. I don't know. No one does.

I'm pretty certain though that the bible is a book of myths and tales. After all, it was man who, by voting yes or no, determined what books and writings were "holy" and which were not. Anyway...


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the kozy king

7/11/2008 6:02:18 PM




"It's pretty simple, I recorded a solo piano arrangement of a hymn and people like it. :)"

No I think I meant: how do you come to be playing a piece of music with christian lyrics. only the notes meant something to you. the words and inspiration of the author are worse than meaningless they're actually evil. What's the deal? I'm surprised that's all. (Still, a good quip)

I guess my last post was lost on you and you seem to be enjoy saying the same sarcastic thing over and over. It's interesting to see that beyond yourself know exactly who is saved and who isn't. Nobody else is this blog has claimed that. Altho' there sure have been a lot accusations to that effect leveled at any christian

Maybe your niece already is saved and you will all find out later? Would that bug you?


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Nerol

7/11/2008 6:05:29 PM


No, I don't believe she needs saved. She's beautiful as is. Just like God created her. ;)


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Nerol

7/11/2008 6:06:40 PM


Unless he created her doomed. That would suck.


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LyinDan

7/11/2008 6:36:55 PM


I don't think this has been refuted yet, logically speaking.

***************************************************
I'll even take it further....if God exists, and God is omnipotent/omniscient, therefore knowing all that's going to happen in advance, then he knew in advance about the tsunamis, the starving babies, the suffering on the planet, and still created the whole mess anyway. Nice guy!

And even further yet.....since God knew what would be the blight of creation before it was even created, the emergence of evil, etc., he did it anyway. That means that in the largest sense, God, all omnipotent, is responsible for everything, including evil. Because you are are either omnipotent or not. To say that evil exists against God's will is to say that something other than God's will can come to pass. If that's the case, then what good is God's will?
**********************************************
Actually, I don't think it's really refutable.

Ignorable, excusable, that's different.

If indeed God is Omniscient (all knowing. he knows EVERYTHING that happens and will happen. that IS the definition) then Man's free will is excluded. Either God is not Omniscient or Man has no Free Will. He may have it in a personal way (from his viewpoint, he can make his own decisions), but God still knew what he would choose. And knowing that, He created individual men to choose the way He already knew they would choose. In fact, since God created Satan, He knew before He created him what he would do...and still created him, to be the scourge of Mankind, among other things.

Sorry. I don't really like to try to tear down anyones faith ( see my posts above, everyone needs some), but we ARE arguing logically. Unless you can point out the logical hole in my and Nerol's thinking.


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7/11/2008 7:01:59 PM


Here's some logic for you. Have faith.


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Dick Aven

7/11/2008 7:11:28 PM


Great idea, God! Here's some PERCY FAITH...


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never never band

7/11/2008 7:23:35 PM


Really, this is the most childish way to argue about God. Loren I love ya but really.
Anyone who truly, actually holds the belief and Omnipotent, Omniscient Gray bearded Malcontent on a throne somewhere making decisions "beyond our comprehension" is not to be argued with..
There's really no point, the idea of debate is an empirical idea and when one or both parties willfully abandon that it's just monkeys throwing poop...(and I do really mean BGoth parties, I'm not picking a team here)

These logical fallacies have been gone over and over,,,,,and over.
C'mon guys, this isn't interesting anymore.

what may be interesting is, as I suggested, discussing the Death, hope, Myth etc. in secular terms.
Secular is not to say atheist, it's just making the dialog self referential and therefore linguistically (and thus socially) non jugemental.
There's a device for this in writing called E-Prime.

The idea is to avoid the "IS" of identity...(ther words "are" and "all" are equivalent and we avoid them as well)
Replace it with a self referential, non metaphysical term.

so, instead of saying ..

"God IS good and and we are all forgiven for our transgressions.."

we would write it in e-prime

"God seems good to me and we may be forgiven for what I perceive to be our transgressions"

I know, it seems clumsy and verbose, but it may be that a little practice with this both in writing and in ones internal monologue leads to tolerance where it's appropriate and makes a clear distinction about what is Not to be tolerated in civil society and civil discourse.
It seems to me that we need not be tolerant of violence, bigotry, or what I call "monotheistic bigotry" which leads to such things like the hate killing of Mathew Shepard, Neo Nazis, KKK or the nasty side of Sharia Law. These are sentiments that do not seem to merit tolerance.
But our internal Metaphysical ideas are fine!, I do think it's a good idea to be able to look closely at them and be honest about why exactly we choose various indefensible metaphysical ideas as our personal philosophies.
If you cant do this then I suspect that you are acting and thinking under the influence of peers , clergy or persuasive literature and have abandoned your will and logic. I don't think that is EVER a good idea, but if someone else does I'd love to hear why...

We may be The Generation upon whose shoulders it falls to sort this stuff out or Perish. I don't think that's being overly dramatic either.

s.




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LyinDan

7/11/2008 8:24:03 PM


Well, we COULD discuss civilly why we believe illogical things about the basic nature of existence. I would expect that would distill to pretty boring stuff, too, though.


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never never band

7/11/2008 8:56:39 PM


HA HA HA!!

yea, it might be too dull to bother with.

I'm just on about this Death thing....And the idea of continuity and why the hell so many of us believe that.



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never never band

7/11/2008 11:36:42 PM


wow, that Percy Faith you tube video just started working!

that's really something...


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the kozy king

7/12/2008 1:33:50 AM



Nerol:

I liked your last two comments to my last post. Perfect.

TT



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the kozy king

7/12/2008 3:37:19 AM ---- Updated 7/12/2008 3:46:42 AM


Thanks God. Thanks Dick.


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the kozy king

7/12/2008 3:51:02 AM ---- Updated 7/12/2008 3:56:37 AM



Dan:

Seriously, would you like to logically argue:

1.) God created evil.

2.) Man has no free will?

But I won't discuss God and Man if I don't exist.

Terry


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Nerol

7/12/2008 4:57:13 AM


And therefore "the whole earth groans under the weight of man's sin" (From germs to oceans)

But the price was supposedly paid for the sins, so why is the earth still groaning from under the weight of man's sin? That's what no one has answered. If the price was paid at Calvary, and the slate wiped clean, why is the supposed punishment still raging?

And as to the question of "did God create evil?" Well, if someone is the alpha and the omega and everything in-between, then that would include the good, the bad and the ugly. If God is everything, then God is everything. If God is not everything, then God is not God.

And like Lyin' Dan said, if Satan created evil, and God created Satan, then ultimately God is responsible for evil since he created who created it. Better yet, he knew it would happen beforehand and did it anyway. How can anyone say God created all of creation "except for....."???


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Kevin White

7/12/2008 6:46:52 AM ---- Updated 7/12/2008 6:50:33 AM


Relevant to discussion above ...

Regarding God, religion, and the shit that occurs in the world (the comment in this article, starts regarding how the Indian Ocean tsunami shook the "faith" of a religious man ... in the 'trades', so to speak ... who questioned the existence of a God who would allow such terrible things to happen):

Is it possible that a grown man could live so long and still have his personal composure, not to mention his lifetime job, upset by a large ripple of seawater?

Since there were convulsive and volcanic and meteoric events for many, many years before the human species made its appearance on Earth, one can scarcely put oneself in the position of asking God for an explanation of what he did to demolish pterodactyl society, thus rather heartlessly clearing the way for those who came after.

But those of us who do not believe in a creator, and who are waiting for further and better results from the Hubble telescope and the clarification of DNA, should not think or speak in a short-term vernacular either.

There either is a god or there is not; there is a "design" or not. It has to be admitted at the first that humans do not have the capacity to interpret geological time in any sense-making fashion.

It follows from this that it is wrong to attribute disaster or suffering to god, who, if he existed, might very well have fully intended it, for long-term good or for long-term evil or for no reason at all except divine caprice.

In ridiculing a pathetic human fallacy, which seeks explanation where none need be sought and which multiplies unnecessary assumptions, one should not mimic primitive ontology in order to challenge it. Better to dispose of the needless assumption altogether.

This holds true for everything from Noah's flood to the Holocaust. What struck me, in reading the reports from Sri Lanka, was the mild disgrace of belonging to our imperfectly evolved species in the first place. People who had just seen their neighbors swept away would tell the reporters that they knew a judgment had been coming, because the Christians had used alcohol and meat at Christmas or because . . . well, yet again you can fill in the blanks for yourself.

It was interesting, though, to notice that the Buddhists were often the worst.


Full Article

Kev-


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LyinDan

7/12/2008 8:02:16 AM


It's not God I'm trying to tear down, it's some assumptions about Him. Self-contradictory ones are big red targets. Like I say, it's impossible to disprove His existence or nonexistence, but it's quite possible to relieve Him (or us) of the burden of some fallacious attributes.


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/12/2008 8:13:10 AM ---- Updated 7/12/2008 8:15:58 AM


I thought the last paragraph of the article Kev Highlighted was very interesting, and supported some of my earlier assertions regarding religion and conflict. To pick up where Kev left off....

"It was interesting, though, to notice that the Buddhists were often the worst. Contentedly patting an image of the chubby lord on her fencepost, a woman told the New York Times that those who were not similarly protected had been erased, while her house was still standing. There were enough such comments, almost identically phrased, to make it seem certain that the Buddhist authorities had been promulgating this consoling and insane and nasty view. That would not surprise me. Sri Lanka's Buddhists were responsible for frightful anti-Tamil attacks in the 1960s, and the first independent president of the country was murdered in public by a Buddhist priest. I strongly recommend that any inquisitive reader get hold of Brian Victoria's admirable book, Zen at War, which details the way in which Zen ideology was used as the training-manual for Emperor Hirohito's chauvinistic and robotic Japanese army. A wide and vague impression exists that so-called Eastern religion is more contemplative, innocuous, and humane than the proselytizing monotheisms of the West. Don't believe a word of this: try asking the children of Indochina who were dumped by their parents for inherited deformities that were attributed to sins in a previous "life." We keep on being told that religion, whatever its imperfections, at least instills morality. On every side, there is conclusive evidence that the contrary is the case and that faith causes people to be more mean, more selfish, and perhaps above all, more stupid."

Good article, thanks Kev. Personally I think people are just stupid in general :) and religion gives them an excuse to act out. If it were not religion justifying the urge, they certainly would find another excuse to cause harm to one another. Quite sad.... Religion is not to blame. it is just an excuse, the sad state of the Human Condition is the culprit. We have not evolved beyond primitive urges and defense mechanisms that allowed us to survive mans early stages.


Good thread people, I have enjoyed it.


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Larz Boah

7/12/2008 9:09:07 AM



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Kevin White

7/12/2008 10:02:59 AM ---- Updated 7/12/2008 10:07:55 AM


You're welcome, Jeff ...

The council on secular humanism is a very interesting group and Free Inquiry is a terrific rag ... for those who ponder such questions.

I'd send them money, but being atheists ...

... they're a non-prophet organization ...

Kev-


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The Man With No Band

7/12/2008 10:09:07 AM ---- Updated 7/12/2008 10:32:25 AM


When one is looking for an answer to a riddle, be it religious or not ... man truly hinders himself by using typical thoughts in secular patterns ... Faith, Science, Mathematics, etc. etc. ... choosing one or the other to bolster his belief and discount all others ... Man has found that he has been wrong in his conclusions since the beginning of time ... So why, after he has reached a conclusion, does he shut all other ideas out ?

The subconscious mind makes no distinction between constructive and destructive thought impulses. It works with the material we feed it, through our thought impulses. The subconscious mind will translate into reality a thought driven by fear, just as readily as it will translate into reality a thought driven by courage or faith.

If you are of the scientific mind, and say everything has to be logical to exist, then you surely must realize that those that believed 200 years ago in the very principles that you do now, would be astonished at all the things that they believed were impossible that have been proven to exist ... So if you are a scientific thinker then you are truly wrong to dismiss something that is not logical ...
Nature herself, which the study of science sprang from, offers many "unexplainable" realities ... Take for example the Bumble bee ... According to all Mathematical principles and Scientific reasoning, the Bumble bee cannot fly ... yet he does ...

If you are of the religious mind, and everything has to fall within your "books" parameters, then you surely must realize that the recording of that "book" was done at the hands of man ... and man is very prone to mistakes ... (didn't the very first man that "God" created prove this to you ?) ... Even if you believe the stories are true, by that belief alone should prove to you how vial and wicked men can be, and even the men with good intentions in the Bible were very many times shown to be ignorant of the true meaning of the words told to them by God himself ... So if you are a religious thinker then you are truly wrong to dismiss something that is not in your book ...
How can you believe that your "GOD" is great enough to create a book for you to read and not believe that he is great enough to write a second and a third volume ...

If you are of the open mind, and say that anything is possible, then you have just entered Heaven ... and no Scientist or no Prophet can take that away ... All of the glorious wonders of life are yours to enjoy (especially riddles)... and you owe no one or nothing for them ... anything that may come after, is just an extra added bonus...


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/12/2008 11:24:04 AM ---- Updated 7/12/2008 11:27:00 AM


Nice post Sam!

"if you are of the religious mind, and everything has to fall within your "books" parameters, then you surely must realize that the recording of that "book" was done at the hands of man ."

Very true Sam.Gotta love King James and his "Version" of the Bible.

As for your point on Science and Logic, the world was thought to be flat, and you would simply fall off it when you reached the end. :) As for where we are today? We have made astonishing technological strides, more in the last fifty then the previous two thousand. However, we still strap our astronauts to what by all accounts is a "Bomb" (see the Challenger)

Also, the Human body is still a mystery, and it is no coincidence a Medical Doctor is said to have a "Practice". I only need to view My Moms plight to know this. People die in Hospitals daily, and the doctors have no idea "why".

Never never band...., please know I have found your discussion on the mindset at the end of life interesting. We will all experience it some day. Maybe heaven lasts but an instant as we pass, but it may feel like an eternity. We are just now seeing the light of a star that burned out thousands of years ago.





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never never band

7/12/2008 11:56:16 AM


Jeff,

I find I generally like people who are sincerely interested in God, spirit, etc.
I like young christians who have a genuine interest in ideas like grace and morality.
I think they are generally betrayed by the older generation and by their clergy, and I'd love to see an out and out rebellion!!!

As far as the Sience vs Faith thing goes, really that's just another 2 valued logic and it's not a good way discuss any of this because the actual world we live and love in has multiple values...it's a vast gray area where we have to make value decisions over and over.
I think the christian idea of Forgiveness abstaining from judgment, humility is so revolutionary because it's the only philosophical doctrine of it's age to break from 2 values Greek logic in favor of a logic that is capable of suspending the "rush to judgment".
Being able to sustain a state of mind that is poised between YES and NO and live in the"Maybe" or the "I Don't Know"..
It may be that this Jesus Character was one of the first 2 or 3 humans to advocate Quantum Logic or a logic of Multiple values...

huh?
I'm not certain the Character of Jesus as we talk about him now is actually a real historic figure, but the Myth is fantastic and revolutionary.....
I think the story of the Death and Resurrection is nonsense and is pieced together from half a dozen earlier myths..
But the actual teachings are often stunning, and curiously Persian....
;)


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the kozy king

7/12/2008 2:04:26 PM


Persian (wink, wink)??? In other words you can't refute the dating of Deuteronomy 32:22 and Satan-on-page-three arguments. I've seen no chronological proof that Persian beliefs define Jewish beliefs.

There are other excellent arguments against my point of view.

As far as man's free will goes, Dan, one could try to read Martin's Luther"s "Bondage of the Will" for a full discussion of the powers and limitations of man's will and the completeness of God's will. Of course, we haven't been made into God ourselves (not all-powerful, not ever-present, not all-knowing) so our free will is the limited version for sure.

I'm particularly interested in refuting the notion "God is the author of evil".

I thought that I did that when I supposed that mankind is blamed for ALL the evil on earth (even disease and natural disaster).

Although I think that God is absolved of that charge simply because God (supposedly) gave us the free will (as He has Himself) thereby making it our decision (we're "made in his image" and free will is part of it), BUT you continue to justly maintain that we are still His creations, so it is still charged that He is still responsible for evil (and knows it all along). I'll concede a failure to make my point so far, Nerol

Here's the new argument.

Mankind creates evil and it makes God look bad because He created them.

How can God get around that one?

Evil carries a punishment and every punishment can be carried out to satisfaction. In this case the punishment is clearly death.

God clears His name by taking on man's sin (as His own sin, just as you claim) and pays the the death penalty Himself. Now both God and man are free and clear. God's payment is sufficient and only His payment could be sufficient because He made the whole "mess" in the first place (as you claim).

But how does this make God NOT "the author of evil"? Doesn't it rather prove that He is the author of evil? Is He admitting it by accepting the penalty?

He is not the author of evil because he has taken what is wrong and made it right. (Patience please.)

Without wrong, God could never create the counteractive virtues that all people value most: forgiveness, compassion, mercy, tolerance, depth of love, regeneration, relief, etc. We have all these great things because God allowed us to screw up. Anybody can love when everything is perfect, but God has taught us that we can love when everything is wrong too.

Most important of all, He clears His own name by making it the right thing to have done, not the wrong thing. More on this later. Be patient. It's all linked.

Turning wrong into right -- this is the plan that amazes the universe. A plan that only God could do (to the devils' dismay and the angels rejoicing!)

I won't labor the point anymore, because it still doesn't answer the next objection.

2. So, even if I accept that, why are we all still paying with death and suffering?

I thought I answered this too, but obviously I'm not the best. And it's a concise and logical question for sure.

Our pain and suffering involves a time before it began, what we're going through now, and a time when it's over. Past, present, future. This is the model on which you base the objection: Why do we still get put through the wringer AFTER Christ's "perfect" sacrifice?

This time structure does not exist in eternity, but we can't understand eternity Eternity might blow all objections to God's will out of the water, I can't communicate that.

I'll have to discuss in terms of man's time.

So, again, why did God create a race that would fail, then leave it in torment, provide a solution and then leave it torment still?

The easy answer is that He is God and He can do whatever He wants. This is perfect and irrefutable. BUT God does not want to be known for that because it limits Him to being a simple bully.

When God says " My ways are not your ways" and "Who can understand the mind of God" and "Who is God's counselor", this is not arrogant. On the contrary God resists the proud and God calls Himself "lowly".

"God is Love."

And -- here we go -- hang onto your hats!

Remember that God lives in eternity so he doesn't see us temporarily as we see ourselves.

He sees us permanently -- our whole life at once. (He sees the cute little "innocent" boy turn into Adolf Hitler. He sees a Paul as a spotless saint who once plotted the murder of His own people.)

This should moderate our sense of outrage because

"God chastises those whom He loves."

How do we appreciate eternal blessings of salvation if there is nothing to be saved from? Do you follow this? We need temporary trials to achieve permanent satisfaction. So in this "age" of past,/present,/future that is simply the way it is in order to reveal God's activity as Saviour.

Let me explain why this is the only way.

The old race must die before the new race can be born. As one who is made in God's image there can't be two of you -- a good one and an evil one. The old one must die (just as seeds are put into the ground and stop being a seed and become a plant).

It's not our job to limit the number of seeds God can plant. I really think I explained this before quite well.

Let me continue to explain why the pain and death continues.

To be human is to be created with the free will to do wrong and the potential to be re-born with the free will to resist all evil. Both parts. Past and future.

Let me leave it there and finish it in the next question, by Sam. Continued in my next (last?) post. Then I think I'm done. I've spent a whole week on this blog.


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the kozy king

7/12/2008 2:05:21 PM


3. OK, If you can (hypothetically) accept that God can turn evil into good. And if you can (hypothetically) accept that evil is present to reveal God's miraculous ability to turn evil into good on your behalf. So why does God allow some to perish in darkness while He benevolently gives others the ability to see and be saved?

You're really not going to like the answer to this one.

God is not simply some kozy deity to snuggle up with for all eternity.

As I said above, there are two aspects to being a human in our own time frame. A past of error and a future of perfection. This will be evident in eternity as well: a fallen race which reveals the option to do wrong and a restored race to demonstrate the option to do NO wrong.

Is this unfair? Surely God is wrong to keep fallen races of angels and of men.

Well, who defines right and wrong. It's God, not us. Just like God defines gravity and color and the table of elements. They are His laws. He is also the final authority on right and wrong.

This is not preemptive. Let me elaborate.

When God says it's wrong for you to do that, because you don't have the ability to ever undo it, and here's hell to prove my point -- we can't argue.

When God says, it's not wrong for Me, however, to have created you with this freedom to sin, because I can make it good again -- He is correct.

"It is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

And this shall be emphasized too in eternity to reveal God's holiness. God's holiness means that in spite of everything in the universe and how He deals with each thing individually -- He is absolutely separate from us and lives in perfection without a single flaw around Him. Even the "wrong" He has made "correct".

He does not need anything that He has created. "Holy" means separate, unto Himself and not subject to any outside force.

Here I have to say that my understanding ends. I cannot understand, eternity, infinity, perfection, and holiness because I have no experience of them and neither does our world.

But it is peculiar to me that we have these common terms for things we can't understand. I will understand them after my death if God is willing. Now I'm off my attempts at logic and onto faith.

Just like you said Dan, everybody needs some faith in something. You said you simply want to debunk any misconceptions about a possible God. Same here. Hope I've had some success.

Several people have displayed some real lean thinking, without all the fat and condiments that are typical of these discussions.

So believe me when I say that I do not believe that I have "won" these arguments at all. Your claims could be as valid as when I started. Reiterate one more time for victory. I'm done.

But I have tried to show that God is never (ultimately) the author of evil in anything He undertakes.

And that God is free to run the Universe that He created in His own Way without our understanding or approval.

However, finally, I believe that God has given us enough understanding of Himself to have faith in Him that it's all good ultimately in spite of how it looks now.

In His own words: "Come, let us REASON together though your sins be as scarlet."

Thanks everyone for an outstanding blog. I'm tentatively signing off with nothing left to say. I can't check and tweak this thing anymore I'm letting it go like this.


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Steve Ison

7/12/2008 3:57:21 PM


KK Terry...When i said 'I can't Travel with Uncle Satan',i meant that i don't believe in him...at all.
Not because i don't 'like' him.
Just because i don't believe-even a fraction of a fraction of a % in any part of my being he exists
Sorry i didn't make that clearer...

Reincarnation isn't a 'judgement' and a vehicle to punish people anymore than gravity is a way to punish you if you jump 300 foot down out of a building..
From my way of thinking-like gravity- its an impersonal law...


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the kozy king

7/12/2008 4:14:03 PM



No problem, Steve. That's good. Yes, I understand.

Thanks again.

I really look forward to listening to the rest of your interview this evening and hearing your future songs.

Same with Hugh and Dick's east coast adventures.

TT


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Steve April

7/12/2008 4:19:47 PM


Bravo!

the fall of Lucifer due to pride relates to the morning star challenging the sun, in mythology.

dante's much loved guide through the inferno & purgatory was virgil, a poet officially "pagan." dante understood how aspirations to the divine evolve, and are basically ennobling...


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Black Velvet Lace

7/12/2008 9:36:12 PM ---- Updated 7/12/2008 9:47:40 PM


part 1 (had to post in two parts, thread won't let me post full response in one post)

"Welcome home Lace ! ... you beautiful girl ... (sam)"

Thank you Sammy, I'm glad to be back!! I've been reading your life history thread and will say.. *and I thought my adolescent antics were rowdy*! None hold a candle to yours!! :D You *should* write a book......


I wish I was a good-looking as Lace she got off easy :-) (kk to sam)
Hehehehehehehe……..


"Ya-y Lace. I hear ya. Life experience trumps logic. (steve april)"

Now Steve, did I get inflamatory with anybody?? ;) (PS if I did/do.. please confront me!) Anyway, it was my struggles with logic (my professional training is in the humanistic social sciences) that held me back from accepting the Lord for 20 years (well that and I thought I had to change my whole lifestyle; didn't want to give all THAT up :P). Personally, I didn't come to faith *simply* by any means. I came kicking and screaming for *proof*, riddled with doubt, and looking for logical answers to things that seemed thoroughly impossible/Neanderthal to me (such as the problem of evil/predestination/the resurrection/miracles/etc). I honestly thought the stories in Genesis had to be mythical/allegorical, even my Catholic training had said they were (depending on the nun/priest- I was educated parochial schooled 7th grade through graduate school). It was only when I cracked open the bible and sat under the training of several respected apologists (I used to be deeply involved in apologetics several years ago with some of the best on the web) that I started to consider just.. maybe.. there were logical reasons for belief in Christianity. I had been taking snippets of verses or someone else's systematic theology and rejecting most. I found instead that one verse in Exodus taken out of historical context wasn't the meaning of the entire text, that other later revelations explained earlier oddities, and that early oddities laid the foundation for understanding later revelations. All this to say, from my experience, Christianity wasn't turning out to be a total leap of blind faith, but instead one ingrained with enough solid evidence and facts that did deserve a fair listen from me. The more I listened with an open mind, the more things made sense. The more investigating I did, the more convinced I became that Christianity, with all of it's eccentricities, seemed to me the best explanation, holding the best solutions, to the deepest questions of life.



"well, you're right in that there is a complexity and astonishing implicate order in nature that does look...sorta Godish? Goddy? (never never)"

Never, I really appreciate your candor here. Topics like religion and politics have a way of polarizing people to the point of rigid *my way or the highway* attacks. And so.. thanks.. I appreciate you...



"but it's a HUGE leap from that to accepting the Bible or the Koran or any such book of riddles as the word and will of God!!!! (never never)"

It is.. I would venture to name that huge leap the *leap of faith* we all talk about, but even from the *evidence in nature* one is still faced with the question of which source tells *the rest of the story*. Who is this God? Does He really exist? If so, what is He like? Where can we find out about Him? Is the Koran the truth? The Tanakh? The Christian bible.. the Book of Mormon.. the Watchtower? Does any source? The conclusion I drew from nature was to say there positively is a God. And then the bible I later read told me that is no surprise (They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. Romans 1: 19-20). But long before I reached that conclusion I had been sincerely searching for truth. What did explain our presence as beings? How did earth come about, how did it populate, why are we here, where ARE we going (usually about 250 miles per hour to our next appointment :D). I left Catholicism in 1999 and was looking at several options to answer those questions. In the search, I looked at the Eastern traditions, Judiasm, the earth religions including Wicca, even satanism (aka LeVay- not the medieval satanisabloodthirstyghoulstuff). And when I did, if I was going to accept that there is a deity out there bigger (maybe possibly even smarter :P) than me, I had to look at what source would give me not only the truth about Him, but also the best explanation for how He operates. In mulling over all the others, Christianity seemed to give the most comprehensive explanations backed by archeological/biblical historical/secular historical *proof*.


(to be continued)


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Black Velvet Lace

7/12/2008 9:39:02 PM ---- Updated 7/12/2008 11:35:51 PM


part 2

"It's silly to draw such elaborate conclusions from so little information."

I would beg to differ that there is little information, so we may have to agree to disagree on this one. I think what often happens is that people (not saying you.. I don't know all you've read or studied) don't search out the information, especially with an open mind. Many CHRISTIANS today are truly biblically illiterate, Catholic priests surely are, some ministers I've run into, and with thousands of hours of *religious instruction* under my belt, *I* was certainly biblically illiterate. We as a generation do not study the bible itself. And with the help of the postmodern movement within the churches, even some Evangelicals are eliminating it. A good friend of mine is an atheist; he presented several objections to Christianity (all in one ranting breath.. I never did get to answer most of them.. phew) and as he stopped to inhale I asked him just one question.. *have you read the bible*? He said he had read several books that had refuted it, but admitted he'd never the bible itself. I said *then Carl, how do you know what it says? You are depending on other sources to tell you what they think it says, but what about you, yourself.. if the sources had erected a strawman (some of his statements indicated they had) you are punching about an empty bag.. you are arguring against something the bible never even said*. And so he just hung up LOL.



"the New Testament reads like a typical 3 act passion play....A rather good one, but still just a dramatic writing."

I *think* the NT *is* where they got the Passion Play from :P But seriously, how do you know it's just a dramatic writing? How do you know for absolute certain it's events didn't happen? The book of John records that Jesus was crucified at the hands of then governor Pontius Pilate (Mt 27:11). Then secular history, through the Roman historian Tacitus, corroborates that Pilate was involved with the execution of Christ (Annals 15:44). The Jewish historian, Josephus, records James “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ” was put to trial for the faith. (Antiquities 20.9.1). When I saw extra biblical sources, some antagonistic against Christianity, recording such things, I had to admit the story added up to more than just myth.



"That Hamlet that we all so often quote puts the bible to shame!"

Hamlet has it’s gems, but then doesn’t s_cripture as well?
Consider:
A cheerful heart is good medicine Proverbs 17:22
A friend loves at all times Proverbs 17:17
Above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life. Proverbs 4:23
Do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Mat 6:34
Hatred stirs up dissension, but love covers over all wrongs. Proverbs 10:12
Reckless words pierce like a sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. Proverbs 12:18
Place me like a seal over your heart Song of Solomon 8:6

Or how these about from the Song of Solomon:
Your lips are like a scarlet ribbon; your mouth is lovely. 4:3
My lover is to me a sachet of myrrh resting between my breasts. 1:13
I am my lover's and my lover is mine; he browses among the lilies. 6: 3
How beautiful you are and how pleasing, O love, with your delights! Your stature is like that of the palm, and your breasts like clusters of fruit. I said, "I will climb the palm tree; I will take hold of its fruit." 7:6-8
How beautiful your sandaled feet, O prince's daughter! Your graceful legs are like jewels, the work of a craftsman's hands. Your navel is a rounded goblet that never lacks blended wine. Your waist is a mound of wheat encircled by lilies. Your breasts are like two fawns, twins of a gazelle. 7:1-3

I would say there's not only wisdom.. but also some hot stuff in there as well.. :D


“we are Myth generators, and meaning makers. Pattern recognition is a basis of our cognition! so like Dan says it's likely that we will generate 'meaningful' patterns from the information in our environment! That doesn't make them "true" (never never)

We are myth makers no doubt. How else could one explain movies/TV/novels/plays. We all love a good *story*, but given the historical and archeological corroboration/evidence of the gospel stories that exists, I have a hard time now believing that the events of the NT were just myths.


“Lace: I'm so happy you came forward with some standard christianty (as did Jack earlier on). I notice you use the word "regenerate" a word that involves doctrines which are hotly debated between different groups of christians. Are you in "at this level" so to speak? It's true that many "believers" are content with a "fairy tale" and they will even get indignant sometimes if you suggest that they study seriously. But I thought your posts sounded quite knowledgeable.” (kk)

Hi KK, yes, I am *in* at that level. I’ve studied (hopefully I‘ve retained a thing or two from those experiences) and spent years involved in apologetics on the web. Since, back then, I tended to respond in kind, there were times I later regretted my reactive ugliness. It took time (and hopefully maturity) to realize I should be nothing more than a simple messenger if the time calls for it. I will throw in a thought provoking question if it can be done respectfully. If there is a specific discussion going on and someone has a misconception about s_cripture because they have been misinformed/not informed, I’ll try to simply state what s_ cripture does teach and leave it at that. A persons beliefs are intensely personal because they are also bound up with their own life experiences/hurts/triumphs/failures/victories. There’s no way for me to know why they believe what they do/don‘t. So I guess I figure I’ve no business inserting myself into that part of their equation.


“If we are given free will by god, and an ability to think, reason, and make decisions, why then are we condemned if we do not give ourself to Jesus if our free will points us in another direction? I am back to my Murderer versus good person conflict.” (jeff)

Jeff, this is the simplest way I can understand that dilemma. If even a murderers free will points him towards Jesus, Jesus will enter into relationship with him. If a good persons free will points them away from Jesus, there is no relationship. I cannot live in some person’s house across town that I do not know and I am not connected to. I can, however, live with my family. To get hung up on which person is *better* and which one *worse* misses s_ cripture’s point, which is, God is a God of both justice (anyone who sins and rejects Jesus paying for those sins will have to then pay for them themselves= hell) and mercy (anyone who sins but accepts Jesus paying for their sins escapes paying for them themselves= heaven).


“Lace(no-i didn't think you were preaching)... (steve)

Oh good, I wasn’t thoroughly sure after the fact, and so if I do ever come off that way to anyone, please call me on it.



xox
~Lace~

PS How come the word s_cripture is wonky in posts?? It doesn't appear correctly as one word.




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never never band

7/12/2008 9:47:23 PM ---- Updated 7/12/2008 9:49:31 PM


if you want to absolve God from complicity in Evil, it seems simpler just to modify our definition of God, and our definition of Evil..

I suspect that it looks something like this

God= the fact that Universe seems intelligent

Evil= mental illness

that seems pretty easy.

Really Evil is nothing more than Anti Social human behavior..
We don't see the Shark as Evil, Or an Orca battering and Chomping a baby seal, but Humans are prone to mental illness, and can develop behaviors that are anti social.


I suppose any species could fall into this, Physical Illness can lead to mental illness, a Rabid Animal will behave in a way that is anti social...

Maybe EVIL is too strong a term, and Maybe GOD is to strong a term as well.
I would agree that Universe seems Intelligent.
The "God Is Love" line is silly and simplistic, Universe is far more varied and interesting than that, Love is certainly compelling but it's just a small part of the Magnificence of Universe.

If we do away with these anthropomorphic notions about God the whole mess starts to clear up very quickly.
That's not to say that there is no God, but my own suspicion is that God is something more like a verb than a noun....It's the intelligent unfolding of Universe and when we are involved in the process in a healthy way we experience "grace", and when we divorce ourselves from the process we experience mental illness which gives rise to the appearance of "evil".

S.


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Black Velvet Lace

7/12/2008 10:41:37 PM


“But the price was supposedly paid for the sins, so why is the earth still groaning from under the weight of man's sin? That's what no one has answered. If the price was paid at Calvary, and the slate wiped clean, why is the supposed punishment still raging?” (nerol)

I’ll take this question Nerol, __scripture describes several seasons in the history of man- paradise before the Fall, before the Flood, after the Flood, the time of the Law (ancient Judiasm), the age of Grace (our current times of the church), the Millennial Kingdom (peace on earth after Christ returns), a New Heaven and New Earth (world as we know it destroyed and remade). It is written that though in our current time “.. there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death“ (Romans 8:1-2), it also says that prior to Christ’s return “The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed… We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.” (Romans 8:19-22). In other words, while the gates of heaven were opened and the price for our sins was paid at Calvary, it will take Jesus’ return to end people’s sinning on earth. So as long as there are sinners, there are the inevitable temporal consequences of sin. The old testament book of Isaiah describes the millennial reign of Christ like this:

The wolf will live with the lamb,
the leopard will lie down with the goat,
the calf and the lion and the yearling together;
and a little child will lead them.
(Isa 11:6)

xox
~Lace~


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Black Velvet Lace

7/12/2008 11:22:48 PM ---- Updated 7/12/2008 11:25:54 PM


"Evil= mental illness that seems pretty easy. Really Evil is nothing more than Anti Social human behavior.." (never never)

I'm going to split some hairs with you Never and partially disagree/partially agree with your statements here. I would say that while antisocial acts are evil, considering the DSM (the *other bible* people routinely consult :D) delineation between Axis II Personality Disorders (which is where Antisocial Personality falls) and Axis I Mental Illnesses, I wouldn't agree that sociopathy= evil= mental *illness*. To boot the Personality Disorders are not covered by insurance because they are not defined as illnesses but rather pervasive patterns of inflexible maladaptive behavior. And to further that line of thinking into the legal arena, consider also that antisocial crimes do not routinely fall into the realm of insanity pleas. How many times have we heard *s/he did a hideous criminal act but was not crazy when s/he did it*.

IMO both psychologically and theologically there seems to be a distinction about antisocial behavior that sets it apart.

xox
~Lace~


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Black Velvet Lace

7/12/2008 11:30:36 PM


“well yea...duh. As long as death is treated like some fairy tale there's no talking about it. That's why I think it's more interesting to discuss it in strictly secular terms, but people too afraid to do this.” (never never)

Never, what would a strictly secular discussion of death look like? Maybe starting a new thread to process that might be a good idea (I'm getting lost among all of the responses on this one) I'll watch!

xox
~Lace~


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never never band

7/12/2008 11:37:02 PM


Lace, I read the Bible a lot when I was younger..
In the past 20 years I've read it for reference, but not as a piece of inspirational literature. There is some good history in it and there is revisionist history in it, just like any other chroniclel with a sociopolitical agenda.

The idea that the new testament is a 3 act passion play holds up pretty well, it's length to begin with is perfect..
scenes like the night in the garden, the last prayer is obviously a Private moment, he's not speaking this prayer to his deciples and yet it's recorded verbatim.
hmmm....sounds like we're reading a __script and not an eye witness account.
That and the fact that it's filled with scenarios that simply do not seem to happen in nature and with scenarios that seem right out of the Cult of Mithras or many other places.


I'm fairly certain that there was a historical Jesus, but that doesn't make the bible accurate, Just like the story I heard in grade school about Columbus is about a historical character but was so revised that it hardly resembles the bloodthirsty slave trader of more accurate accounts. I wonder which will survive in 200 years? Columbus the brave explorer and discoverer of the new world? Or columbus the murderer and slave trader drunk on his greed for gold?
I'm certain there was an historic Elvis as well, but what might time do to his story?
we have those who think he faked his death, those who think he was kidnapped by aliens. What if one of these splinter groups ideas take hold, maybe the alien abduction crowd!
in 2000 years Elvis will be mythological, but we'll have these bits of writing about his magical powers, his prowess, his siren voice and his alien abduction...some will doubt he existed at all but then archeologists will discover a polyester body suit in a time capsule with ELVIS rhinestones! His existence will be Proven! So all of the stuff about Aliens must also be true!!!!!

;-)

Really quoting the bible to prove the bible doesn't work, this elaborate scenario of death, resurrection and the cleansing of sin has no foundation in nature, the very concept of what is sinful is so varied and arbitrary that thinking people have a hard time taking this stuff seriously.
Homosexuality is sin?
Pre marital sex?
Masturbation?
Drug Use?
you can't expect to be taken seriously.....

and then there's the Rapture! Christianity becomes a death cult at this point and the scenarios get so far fetched that L Ron Hubbard starts to look more believable than John!!! and that's really saying something....no?

these sorts of belief systems are dangerous to humanity, This sort of Christianity is as dangerous as theocratic states under Sharia law!
Or Poland in 1939...
When people become convinced of indefensible metaphysical assertions there is risk, when these assertions denigrate large portions of humanity for non compliance we are all at risk!
I can't find any reason to excuse it......

"Christ" the crucified and risen "king" is a Myth. Millions of believers don't change this, there are millions of children writing to Santa...Millions of believers in other Gods who say that Christians are wrong! Children putting their lost teeth under their pillows and Goth kids burning candles and muttering incantations in the pale moonlight, Scientologists trying to banish outerspace deamons from their personalities and the cold corpses of the followers of Jim Jones..
Belief, or Faith might give a thing power, might even give it power over your very life, but it cannot make it true.

S.


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never never band

7/12/2008 11:40:07 PM


oops.
we overlapped there a bit.

I agree that this thread is getting convoluted!
:-)

however, beyond that I think we have some differences!

;)

---}-@


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Larz Boah

7/13/2008 2:10:17 AM



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Conversation Suicide

7/13/2008 2:40:46 AM ---- Updated 7/13/2008 5:15:34 AM


WOW! if I were a fundamentalist christian, and THIS was the new MCarthy Era it seems to be under BUSH, etc. - THEN I could create an exhaustive list of SECULAR & unclean non-christians on IAC. And ship it to the powers-that-be in the REligious riGHT aND get a concentration camp, or WITCH-hunt set up for these impure Subversive degenerates, that are being currently allowed to flourish in the music scene! = : -)

NICE PoST y'all ! PHar phUCKIN' out! -phlegm


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Nerol

7/13/2008 4:47:31 AM


The books of the bible were selected in the 4th century by a church council, who, by voting yay or nay, decided what was holy and what was not. Right? There were many other gospels and books that were rejected (they are available if you'd liket o read them).

Point being, a church council (the Catholic church, to be exact), selected the books that were to be included, and closed it at that point with Revelation being the last book. After the Reformation, protestants removed the books of the apocraphy, claiming they were not the word of God.

Men compiled this book, folks. Then men recompiled it. Now there are, in the Christian faith, 2 "official words of God."

No one else sees the problem here????


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Conversation Suicide

7/13/2008 5:04:04 AM


Well, YEAH, of course I do. I see the problem here. There's problems with TONS of aspects of Christian Reasoning.

That's why I JUST DID A sarcastic/heretical comment before yours.

-Don't worry. NOT all the artists on IAC are limiting themselves to such a narrow view as fundamentalist Christianity, with all it's inherrent logic flaws.

-phlegm


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kranky king

7/13/2008 5:27:08 AM ---- Updated 7/13/2008 5:39:12 AM


Nerol:

I don't think the "Catholic" church existed in the fourth century. The church at that time was centered in Northern Africa.

It was also the approximate time of Augustine (of Hippo in N. Africa) who was the first theologian to tackle the entire Bible. He did a pretty good job.

The men who carefully examined all the writing of the time and rejected any books that were inconsistent also did a pretty good job of assembling the scattered letters and histories that had been floating around for a couple of hundred years. The apocrypha slipped by them but it had to go later as good Christians never let their guard down when it comes to the truth. Yes there WAS a problem and it was removed. And not by a simple yay-or-nay-done-on-a-whim kind of thing.

There are still problems in the church (duh). That's because throughout church history:

"God has always worked in SPITE of people, and never BECAUSE of people." kranky king, 2008

(PS I love this ability to edit a post on the Pipeline. Way to go IAC.)


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Conversation Suicide

7/13/2008 5:35:39 AM


DOH! "Phlegm: you're right we should take all those stupid Christians and lock them up in a concentration camp" -- I hope you're jokin'
-- I was actually alluding to the fact that YOUR much-loved Religious Right wants the SUBVERSIVE types like myself to be called TERRORISTS & pagans and be locked up in a concentration camp or some OTHER silly type of Witch Hunt. YOUR chosen religion has MURDERed and Character-defamed folks over the centuries in the NAME of the christian god.

for reals man, get a GRIP on HISTORY -- and the cyclical pattern were in right NOW.... BEFORE it's too late, and you see some GREAT artists/musicians/etc., be destroyed for their heretical beliefs, or their SUBVERSIVE ideas against the USA & other COrrupt NATIONALISTic governments.

-phlegm, tryin' to figure out if you get what I'm sayin' yet.


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kranky king

7/13/2008 5:44:18 AM



Sorry, Phlegm

While you were typing I edited my blog to remove that sarcastic slam against you and touch up my presentation.

Sorry, man. I'm used to lunchroom discussions with other blue collar types. They can get a little rough around the edges. Basically whoever shouts the loudest wins.

Yeah, I understand what you're saying, I was just trying to point out that you seem to be foaming at the mouth a bit when it comes to criticizing Christians.


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Conversation Suicide

7/13/2008 5:53:27 AM ---- Updated 7/13/2008 5:55:55 AM


you've got a point there. it's probably because I've had FAR too many enemies who were in the Fundamentalist side of Christianity over the past few years.

i assume then, you are more of the broad-minded type of christian gentleman, like C. S. Lewis, and Martin Luther King Jr. or even Mother Theresa? These are Three of my idols, even though I am more of a pagan/wiccan/eastern & existentialist philosophy MIX type now.

i don't hate christians, just some aspects of the most ELITIST/Fundamentalist sects.

Thank you for being so nice about it all though! Rock on.

-phlegm


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Nerol

7/13/2008 6:17:57 AM


By catholic I mean the original church; the spread of Christianity in the early centuries. It was at the council of Nicea that Jesus was elevated to being divine. Prior to that there was much debate.

My point is, a book didn't just appear one day that was the word of God. It was compiled by men who had something to gain by keeping people afraid (that tactic is still used today by politicians even in our own government).

The early church, call it what you will, decided...MEN decided....on and compiled the bible. After that, it was compiled again after the Reformation. Catholics still used the original with the apocryphal books. Protestants don't. Which one is the real thing? And is it the real thing just because someone says theirs is the real thing? Or what about the Book Of Mormon? Is that one the real thing? Or how about Mary Baker Eddy's book of Christ, Scientist...healing with guide to the Scripture? That one, is that it?

You don't see the problem in regarding words and books, which man can and does corrupt, as being the "word of God?"


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/13/2008 6:31:04 AM ---- Updated 7/13/2008 6:33:52 AM


Every religion has a Dark side for sure, and often times they are the minority. Many Christians embrace the word of God without passing judgment or condemnation. I have stated the bad, but I would be remiss without stating the good. There are many, giving and beautiful people who embrace the Christian faith, and have the Bibles teachings to thank.

Just as all Muslims do not clamor for Jihad, not all Christians seek to control and alienate.

My Wife comes from a Mormon Family. She is not involved in the faith, but her Father is a Mormon Bishop. Her family is kind and giving, and there is no doubt where My wife's good heart came from. Her family does not resent me, nor do they seek to bring me into the Mormon Church. For that I have great respect for them. I respect their faith, and have seen first hand the good it can do. There have been many negative things said about Mormons, my wife's family is a perfect example how one should not judge all.

There is a lot of discussion on the merits of the Christian Bible, it even gets more complicated with the Mormons and Adam Smith. I would never question the faith of my Wife's family, it is personal to them. Just as they respect my personal right to practice, or "Not" practice a religion of my choosing. This is why I think it pointless to argue the points of the Bible or any religion for that matter. It is a personal thing, you either believe or you don;t. For those with a strong faith on this thread, there is no need to defend or try to make a point to anyone outside your own heart.


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kranky king

7/13/2008 8:02:41 AM



No Nerol. You're the one who doesn't get it.

The "canon" of skripture is supposed to be the infallible writings that are inspired by God directly. Everything ELSE is subject to error.

I don't care whether you believe this or not, just don't try to confuse people on the issue.

The "canon" (the Bible) is composed of the Old Testament which is the canon of Jewish texts which was already in existence before the christian church. So no work was required there. It existed for hundreds, even thousands of years

The New Testament was the actual work requiring compilation by the early church scholars. They examined everything that was being used by the early church and excluded everything that was not in conformity with the Old Testament in particular and with the other current writings as well.

It's OK for you to claim that the Bible is not inspired by God, but stop with this implication that a bunch of guys just sat down one day and threw it all together.

It was really a lengthy historic process that appears to be guided by a Divine Hand.

We all know you don't believe that. But it is very clear to Christians that there is only one book to base their faith on.

Any sect that adds or subtracts from the Bible is a cult. You don't have to believe that either but don't try to make it look like we're confused about it. It's very clear. All those other books are taboo for Protestant Christians.

And the protestant reformation is the biggest event in church history since the day of Pentecost when the church was born, so lay off implying that we're into changing the Bible to suit our needs. That was an extremely defined historic event that was required to shed the first thousand years of corruption in the church. Who knows what future events will be required to reform the church again.

If the Bible changes again, I am certain that the message will not, because although God has allowed people to mess with it sometimes -- He has ALWAYS kept the truth available. In the same way, the truth is there in the Catholic bible, along with some extraneous material that is unnecessary, but cannot strip God's word of its power.

Even the Old Testament mentions books that are not part of Jewish canon. But the Truth is there. After all the Old Testament is the only book the Apostles and the primitive church had before the Gospels and the Letters and Revelations were written.

"Canon" means "rule". Carved in stone in other words -- we don't mess with it. A lot of careful work went into the book we use today.

We're VERY clear on that whether you understand it or not.


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Kevin White

7/13/2008 8:51:02 AM ---- Updated 7/13/2008 9:07:16 AM


I was thinking of creating a new manifesto ... one that comprehensively weaves the Koran and the Bible seamlessly together ... because Muslims believe that Christians simply left off the last chapter ... so perhaps I'll mix it back in ... maybe insert some aliens into the tale.

... or not ... I may need to rethink that ...

L Ron Hubbard tried to write a new religion w/ Scientology, but completely lost cred when he got to the space alien parts ... personally, I think he was joking, but I guess too many people took it seriously, so he couldn't back out of the thing and Jehovah Witnesses were already buying into the big 'ol spaceship coming down to save the believers ... so what the heck ... run w/ it.

It's funny what people believe. I'm wary of being handed unrequested Kool Aid by strangers because of it.

Anyways ... I digress ...

I would market it as the "Kibble", and people could digest it in bits ...

Think it'll sell?

... and yes, I'm poking harmless fun ... whilst making a point.

People will believe what suits them ... no matter how outlandish it may sound to others. Justification ranks amongst the most powerful forces on the planet.

Kev-


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never never band

7/13/2008 9:02:19 AM


I think they'd burn you o a crisp...

:)

It'd be easy to do though, thoses two systems overlap again and again..

still, I'd want to create something that was entirely and deliberately adversarial to Both of those..
A religion where homosexuals are the preferred clergy, We'd need a famous homosexual to be a founding prophet.. and LSD is a sacrament.
Bible school would be mostly about safe sex art appreciation.
And Idols!! Lots and Lots of fancy Idols that would be commissioned from artists all over the world!


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The Man With No Band

7/13/2008 9:07:49 AM


This thread would make a GREAT Rock Opera .....

What say Mr. Ison .... are you up to the task ? .... :)


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/13/2008 10:13:24 AM ---- Updated 7/13/2008 10:20:01 AM


Not only was my previous post lost on you, I have to read this divisive Bullshit.

"Any sect that adds or subtracts from the Bible is a cult"

I guess the Mormons are a cult then? I am not Mormon, but as I alluded I am very close to those who are. And I find that quote very offensive.

Were you there when all the books were written, and how they got included? I am not passing judgment... I don't subscribe to the book of Mormon, just as I have my doubts about Genesis. But I will NOT insult those that do by saying they are in a cult. By your Logic King, every religion other then Protestant Christianity is a cult. What about Catholics? Their Pope interprets the Bible and sets doctrine..I guess they are a cult as well.

You are either very insensitive, or you did not bother to read my post. Its this kind of us versus them rhetoric that causes all the problems. Embrace your religion, abstain from passing judgment on others.

Jeff



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Black Velvet Lace

7/13/2008 11:30:30 AM


"oops. we overlapped there a bit. I agree that this thread is getting convoluted!
:-) however, beyond that I think we have some differences! ;) ---}-@" (never never)

That we did, that we did, and yes we have some differences, along with several others in this thread, best plan of action in cases like that.. agree to disagree! :D

Thanks for a kewl discussion, you've stated your views but have been kind. Religion and politics are hot topics, tempers often flare, thanks for giving me some things to think about, and letting me air my own thoughts. Maybe Sam will now collab with Steve and write the first rock opera song dedicated to this thread, I'll email Rachel and tell her we're patterning it after Tommy :D :D :D

xoxoxox
~Lace~


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kranky king

7/13/2008 11:40:25 AM ---- Updated 7/13/2008 11:53:15 AM


As a matter of fact Mormons. Jehovah's Witnesses, and Roman Catholicism are all cults.

I was surprised about the Catholics being called a cult. But my sister married a Catholic whom I loved very much loved both of them. I went to my sister's Catholic funeral to learn that more than a 1,000 Masses had been purchased to ensure her salvation and also that I could pray to her now and she would talk to God for me. Good thing all those Masses were purchased. Christ's blood wasn't enough.

My wife's family turned Jehovah's Witnesses so we were required to study that religion very closely. Yeah, it's a cult.

The Mormon's look so wholesome and normal. Dig in a bit Jeff and you'll find some truly bizarre stuff that contradicts Christianity.

I don't think you'd be too impressed with anyone who lied about being part of your family. And that's what cults do claim to be part of the family.

Bear in mind that in order to slap these poor folk with the term "cult", they have to be claiming to be Christian. The term "cult" does not apply to other religions who do not claim Christ. ALL, I stress ALL, the cults deny Christ in some way. That is the dividing line.

But, overall, yes, I am very narrow-minded and intolerant when it comes to my religion MY religion, not yours. Do whatever you want, just don't claim to be a Christian if you're not.

The bible is my rule book and it tells me not to judge anyone who doesn't claim to be Christian. But it is my duty to pass judgment and be subject to the judgment of other "Christians"

"For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church." 1 Corinthians 5:12

Sorry, just doing it right. Doesn't concern you, though. Let your Mormon buddies come after me if they think it's wrong?


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The Man With No Band

7/13/2008 11:44:18 AM


yeah ... stay outta that cult ... if it's not yours .... :)


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Black Velvet Lace

7/13/2008 11:53:34 AM


"i don't hate christians, just some aspects of the most ELITIST/Fundamentalist sects." (phelgm)

I don't like the legalists......

Hey Phlegm, did your pastor notice your new tat yet? And can I call you phle.. every time I type out phlegm I start coughin' up hairballs :D

xoxox
~Lace~


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/13/2008 12:00:02 PM ---- Updated 7/13/2008 12:02:18 PM


I judge by actions, not words. The Mormons I personally know are kind, giving people.
My temper never flares in these type of threads..be it Politics or religion.

We should all follow my Moms advice. as she told me this long ago.. "Never argue Politics or religion" . In the end you might as well hit your head against a wall as you are not changing anyone's mind, all that is left is animosity.

"Sorry, just doing it right. Doesn't concern you, though. Let your Mormon buddies come after me if they think it's wrong?"

If you don't come after them, I am sure they will not come after you... geez.


You are a "Kranky" King :) Good Luck to you.

Jeff


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kranky king

7/13/2008 12:01:55 PM



Hey Lace;

What's the difference between a legalist and a nominalist?

A legalist has more rules than you and a nominalist has less rules than you!

Ha, ha, ha. (Hilarious Christian joke ;-)


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Nerol

7/13/2008 12:53:28 PM


Kranky said:

"Any sect that adds or subtracts from the Bible is a cult

Well then, that makes Protestantism a cult, since they subtracted Judith, Wisdom, and the other apocryphal books from the bible. I guess the Mormons would be a cult too then. Using your logic, that is.

And I'm not confusing things at all. I"ll give you what you said about the Old Testament. However, much of the New Testament was decided upon during and after the Council of Nicea in a.d. 325. Prior to that, there was much debate about whether Jesus was God or not. At that council, Jesus was "declared" to be made of the same divine substance of God.

Look, my point is simply this: everything that has supposedly been handed down from God and put into writing had to first pass through a human filter. That in itself, whether intentional or not, is going to corrupt whatever divinity might be present. How could it be otherwise?


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kranky king

7/13/2008 2:38:15 PM




I guess you missed my point about God protecting and enforcing his truth in spite of what people may add, subtract or change in the Bible.

The bible ends with "if anyone adds to to the words of prophecy, God will add to him plagues" and "if anyone takes away from the words of this book, God will take away his portion of the tree of life".

Do you notice there is nothing saying that God will prevent tampering with His word from happening. He only says that it won't go unpunished. Of course He already knew that all kinds of folk would tamper with His word, but he has always had people ready to correct the situation.

That's why most version of the bible today are OK, but the Catholic bible still has the faulty books in it because they don't encourage critical independent reading of it. And the Jehovahs Witnesses are continually altering the text to suit their theocracy. And the Mormons have added a whole text of extraneous history and prophecy after getting strict instructions not to do so.

Call me whatever you want -- cultist, bigot, fascist, moron, asshole -- I don't care, BUT THEY ARE NOT CHRISTIANS! Because they do not use the bible (with or without the apocrypha) as their final authority. The Catholics have the Vatican, the J.Witnesses have the Watchtower Society, and the Mormons have the Book of Mormon as their final authority.

Your other point is a good one.

Yes, your logic is first rate that if men can tamper with "God's Word" then it must be unreliable. See, I do understand you.

But for the third time, I'm saying that I believe that God is protecting His TRUTH all the time. God's word will always accomplish its mission in spite of the cults and the heretics and the other crap that follows the church around like bad breath.

Can't I just believe that if I want? While you believe He doesn't exist to do it anyway?

Thanks for conceding the Old Testament. That was obvious ;-)

You are also correct about the council of Nicea although my view of it is somewhat different than yours.

Here again as I said before is one of the great moments of church history. Where you see a conspiracy to delude the masses, I see order wrought out of impending chaos. Order that exists today. Even order that allows me to identify heresy and cults.


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Jeff Allen Myers

7/13/2008 3:16:24 PM ---- Updated 7/13/2008 3:24:16 PM


"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:"

Who is testifying here? I find it amusing that by this time the word had already been manipulated, interpreted, and made into a new "version"

This quote sounds to me they did not want anyone else tinkering with their version and all the hard work put in. And what if there was a real prophet with new words from God?? No one would listen as the book has been closed. It does bother me that we have heard nothing for over two thousand years, and all we have is camels, stones and begatting going on :)

The Bible is full of passages that cannot be taken literally.....many are outdated.. and if they were followed crimes would be committed in today's society.

I don't care what you believe Kranky, I commend you for having a strong faith. I just don't agree with you passing judgment on people you have no clue or understanding about.

As you can see I am not a religious man, I do not go to Church. I am not an athiest, but Agnostic only partly applies. What I do know is I strive to be a good Father and Husband, and do right by everyone I come into contact with. If I am doomed to Hell fire because of it? Well, I can't help the way I think and believe....just as I can't change my DNA.


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Andy Broad

7/13/2008 3:20:21 PM


Kranky,

Your particular cult of Christianity, must be a particulrly exclusive one, when I was younger I belonged to a fundumentalist gospel mission type of church, but even they considered other cults Christian, at least the more mainstream ones, thry would have balked at including Jehovas Witnesses and Mormons, The definition of Christian to them was a belief in Jesus as Saviour.

Your attitude is typical of the true evil of religion, that when pushed to extremes fuels the most vicious of wars. Having said that I'm sure in your everyday life you are the most generous of people (and I don't mean that saacasticly)

BTW I no longer believe , in fact I am atheist.



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The Man With No Band

7/13/2008 3:20:22 PM


Kranky .... every argument you are making ... chances are ... you would be making if you had been brought up in any other religion .... only putting that religion in place of your own ....

Because you are human ... and humans are and always will be ignorant of the truth ...
and wouldn't know it if it bit them in the ass ...

The human brain is (at least in this stage) unable to fathom or handle the real truth ... otherwise you would automatically be aware of it and it would require no book to make itself known .... period


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Nerol

7/13/2008 3:27:40 PM


Kranky,

The original bible...the one that was used before the reformation, had the apocryphal books in it. After the reformation, Protestant reformers removed them. I'm stating the obvious that the protestant reformation was a break from the roman catholic church. After the break, they had the apocryphal books, which were part of the original bible as handed down by the church, removed. You have said that anyone who added or subtracted from the bible is part of a cult. All I'm doing is pointing out what you said. It's like saying that the proper way to figure this out is by adding 1+ 1, and then complaining when I tell you the answer is 2.


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Nerol

7/13/2008 3:32:37 PM


And the irony here is priceless, as you are helping me prove my point by pointing out the Catholic version of the bible, the JW version, the Mormon version, the Protestant version....all different because all have been filtered through human beings.

Now...which humans have the right version? Darn those human filters anyway... :)


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kranky king

7/13/2008 3:43:11 PM



Nerol;

I said the same thing three times.

I'm careful to indicate that I understand you.

I see no indication that you understand me.


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Andy Broad

7/13/2008 3:52:16 PM


The problem is Kranky that you are sitting on the inside of your particular religious cell, saying in here lies the truth, whereas Nerol and others are on the outside seeing many many cells each with an occupent, procalaming the truth lies heirin. (using cell in more the monastic sense that the prison sense).

There are some many differemt transaltions / version even of the protestant bible, let alone interpretaion of meaning, it's difficult for a "non believer" to accept your God protects the truth argument.


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Nerol

7/13/2008 4:11:03 PM


I understand what you said, and you've yet to address it. On one hand you are saying that Catholics, JW's, Mormons, etc are cults because they changed the bible. I pointed out that Protestants were the first people to change the bible.

Now, this is only significant for me because you seem to be harboring a double standard when it comes to changing the bible. i.e., the protestants had a good reason to change it, therefore it's ok. This is logically flawed thinking. If one wants to debate whether or not Protestants had a good reason to change the bible or not, that'd make a great other thread. I'm just pointing out that protestants meet your own definition of a cult.

I'm not catholic, protestant, etc....being agnostic. I'm not convinced there is a God, and I am not convinced there is not a God either. So the "which version is 'right'" argument is not what concerns me here. What's getting me is your pointing a finger to a bunch of cults because of what they did to the bible while seemingly skimming over the fact that the reformation led to the removal of a bunch of books. Whether or not their removal was justified or not is not the issue. Saying that whoever removes or adds to the bible is part of a cult is. Your pronouncement makes protestantism a cult.

Not being a religious man, that does not offend me. Being a logical man, it just puzzles me.


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kranky king

7/13/2008 4:11:35 PM



Andy! Welcome to the Mammoth Religious Blog!!

I see you disagree. I also see you understand what I said.

Thanks.


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Black Velvet Lace

7/13/2008 4:38:00 PM


"Hey Lace; What's the difference between a legalist and a nominalist? A legalist has more rules than you and a nominalist has less rules than you! Ha, ha, ha. (Hilarious Christian joke ;-)" (kk)

Heh

:D

xox
~Lace~


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