Topics
IAC Prime Member
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Eric Steffensen
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11/7/2008 10:33:05 AM
The paradox of Christianity and fiscal conservatism
I'm puzzled as to why devout Christians are so willing to tightly embrace an ideology that is designed only to empower the very wealthy. Didn't Jesus often speak out against the rich? In fact, in Luke 18:18-30, Jesus tells a wealthy man that he needs to redistribute his wealth to the poor in order to enter the kingdom of God.
So I'm curious how someone resolves the obvious contradictions between the teachings of Jesus and right wing economic policies. Could it be that the idea is to give rich people the choice to redistribute their wealth and not be forced by the government to do it? I could actually understand if that was the case. However, since many Christians are also social conservatives who have a history of attempting to legislate morality (i.e. where government forces people to live righteously), I just can't see where the two schools of thought meet up.
Anyone care to enlighten me?
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never never band
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11/7/2008 1:17:33 PM
Shaw liked to say that Jesus was a socialist!
heh..
Really I think the intersection of Conservative economic policy and christianity is Manufactured, it's a way of tricking poor Christians into voting against their own best interest by using "values Voting" to stir emotions around Gay Marriage, Abortion, strange Xenophobic crusades against other religions etc.
As long as they can keep poor people voting on such issues they can drive economic policy whichever way they want.
In order for the illusion to work though, the wealthy conservative class have to pretend an interest in Christianity, when In truth it's little more than a social club to them.
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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11/7/2008 1:27:42 PM
Never' is sooooo right in my opinion !!!
---Bush has never ben a Christian, or believed in those priciples that Jesus tought,
he has just said he was --------which is a totally different thing!!!
If you doubt this just read the 10 commandments!!!!
New Zealand has elections today!!!
---our two main candidates for prime minister in NZ ---
National (Rep) and Labour (Dem) were both asked recently on TV if they believed in a "GOD"
they both pondered a while then said "NO"
imagine that in the USA????????
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Pulse Eternal
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11/7/2008 1:30:49 PM
TK,
I agree with you. A true follower of God (someone who knows and has 100 percent faith in Him) will NOT care about wealth on this planet. Indeed, such people will care more about any one soul than ALL of the physical wealth this planet could offer combined.
That is something I have recently learned. I am at a paradox right now as to whether I am supposed to use the assets I have collected for my journey or whether my journey will lead in a different direction. There is only one way I will find the answer and that is to listen directly to God and ACT on what I hear.
Jesus was the best example of how a human being who knows God should be.
No religion can replace a direct communication with God, nor can any priest or religious leader.
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The Man With No Band
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11/7/2008 3:01:11 PM
"No religion can replace a direct communication with God, nor can any priest or religious leader."
AMEN !!!
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Nigels
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11/7/2008 4:29:03 PM
I totally agree
No more blindly following priests, religious leaders or religions. Its time to stop outsourcing conscience. Time to grow up, think for ourselves and to make our own decisions drawn from our own relationship with what I like to call the great spirit, based on my own affinity with indigenous spirituality.
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11/8/2008 6:11:40 PM
This post reminds me of a guy I know who employs over 30,000 people, and I once asked how often did he wish he had a normal job like most people. He just sighed and said I had no idea how much he would like that..
So careful what you wish for children because you just might get it. And then you'll find out what having nothing really means..
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11/8/2008 9:56:24 PM
Sure. First off, Jesus was *not* a socialist!!!!
The reason He told that guy to sell his possessions and give to the poor was because he was putting his trust in his wealth instead of God. The guys heart was elsewhere instead of seeking God and putting God first. No where in the Bible does it *ever* say it is wrong to be rich/wealthy. What's wrong is lusting after riches and putting that above God and everything else. So there is no contradiction in Jesus teachings and conservatism. In fact Jesus is the heart of USA conservatism.
Do you know that Martin Luther King Jr and his father were republicans? Do you know that Abraham Lincoln was a republican? Conservatism in the USA is nothing more then upholding the constitution and the bill of rights and all the other principles that this country was founded on!!
It appears that you think being wealthy is a "sin"? This used to be the great American dream! To excel, to be the best you can be! To have the large house with a white picket fence; to leave your children a large inheritance etc...... Each individual is responsible for themselves, not the government!! Of course, disabled people should be taken care of by everyone because they obviously can't.
When closet Marxist took over the main stream media, one of they're goals is to try to make capitalism out to be evil! They haven't come out and said it yet but another goal is to make the USA communist! They're going to censor Christians, talk radio and everyone else who goes against them. And they're supposed to be so tolerant and caring. Ha
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Jeff Allen Myers
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11/8/2008 10:10:55 PM
Giving freely to charity is very different then being forced to give. .... One is honorable, the other is theft. Many people give thousands to charities each year..this on top of paying taxes. A simple concept really....
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The Man With No Band
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11/8/2008 10:20:43 PM
"It appears that you think being wealthy is a "sin"? This used to be the great American dream! To excel, to be the best you can be! To have the large house with a white picket fence; to leave your children a large inheritance etc....."
You base your "DREAM" on Materialistic crap ?
The dream is happiness, love, and what you can do for humanity ... All Americans do not share that "Self-centered" ego driven thing you call a dream ...
Leaving your children just money is a sad legacy ....
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11/8/2008 10:28:23 PM
*sigh* You completely misinterpreted what I said. I'm just amazed at your perspective..... but I shouldn't be. I thought it was obvious in my response that putting God first and seeking Him is what is most important in life. Materialism is not the main focus of life. It can however, make life more convenient and isn't evil in itself.
Did you attend Woodstock by any chance?
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The Man With No Band
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11/8/2008 10:51:08 PM
"Did you attend Woodstock by any chance?"
I'm not quite sure how to answer that ... :) Your not the first to insinuate I believe in "Hippie" ideals .... The fact of the matter is they had things right ... at least at the core ... Then things got to rough and most of them sold out ... sigh ...
I'm very much aware of Christian theology ... I was brought up around it and was a Christian myself for many years ... and then I saw the light ... I decided that if God had given me this brain then he surely wouldn't object to me using it ... and it led me to some amazing places ... and I actually got educated ... God wrote things right into my heart ... he didn't need to tear down a tree, give some paper to some folks and have them write glorified fiction on them to tell me anything ...
And he told me ALL people are his children ... and the pathway to heaven had nothing to do with being a Christian ... See God is an equal opportunity kind of guy ... but he doesn't hold it against the Christians ... Man can be quite evil and using books written by man to suggest that because a man is Hindu or Muslim or a Buddhist or any other religion, that he is not as Clean, or Holy, or Good enough to enter "God's" Kingdom is pure ludicrous fiction ....
I respect your right to believe how you see fit ... but I don't buy it ... and the Devil or the liberal media or whoever else you would like to blame, did not influence my belief one way or the other ...
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Eric Steffensen
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11/9/2008 6:50:43 AM
Unique werks wrote: "It appears that you think being wealthy is a "sin"? This used to be the great American dream! To excel, to be the best you can be! To have the large house with a white picket fence; to leave your children a large inheritance etc......"
Since I don't believe in religion, its difficult for me to think that anything is a "sin". I'm just trying to understand an apparent contradiction in modern American Republicanism and the teaching of Jesus, especially since so many devout Christians seem to gravitate towards the Rebuplican party. If the American dream is important to you, why aren't you willing to support a plan that better empowers more people to reach it?
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11/9/2008 7:03:17 AM
---- Updated 11/9/2008 7:08:53 AM
Tarot..., when the last time you're seen someone starve to death in this country?
When comparing US living standards to the the rest of the world 80% of the people here would be considered wealthy now.., hope that answers your question.
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Eric Steffensen
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11/9/2008 7:14:51 AM
Unique Werkz wrote:
"Do you know that Martin Luther King Jr and his father were republicans? Do you know that Abraham Lincoln was a republican? Conservatism in the USA is nothing more then upholding the constitution and the bill of rights and all the other principles that this country was founded on!! "
From what I can tell, reglious social conservatives weren't courted by Republican party until 1917, when they found a common enemy in godless communism. Prior to then, Christians mostly viewed Republicans as the party of fat, greedy, wealthy businessmen. Apparently, some of the extremists in the party continue the war cry today against socialism and communism by trying to link it with the Democratic party, which is not even close to being socialist.
If you really think that the aim of American conservatism is to protect the Constitution, weren't you outraged at the many attempts made by the Bush administration to circumvent the checks and balances that were established by the Constitution?
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Eric Steffensen
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11/9/2008 7:22:38 AM
Unique Werkz wrote:
"When closet Marxist took over the main stream media, one of they're goals is to try to make capitalism out to be evil! They haven't come out and said it yet but another goal is to make the USA communist! They're going to censor Christians, talk radio and everyone else who goes against them. And they're supposed to be so tolerant and caring. Ha"
Ok, now this is just straight up unjustified paranoia.
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Bob Elliott
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11/9/2008 8:38:16 AM
It's clearly a contradiction, but if you hang around in churches long enough you get agile in mental gymnastics that allow you to never take in Jesus' clear stand on wealth...
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11/9/2008 9:13:43 AM
Jesus didn't write the Bible. He did state however it's better to teach people how to fish..
Amazing how this evil capitalistic manages to feed and cloth everyone very well and people still till this day who arrive with noth more than the clothes on their back manage to achieve through hard work and determination.
Tarot doesn't want to talk about that though.., that would upset his abstract sense of reality.
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Bob Elliott
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11/9/2008 9:37:15 AM
The teach a man to fish thing is not in the bible...
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Eric Steffensen
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11/9/2008 9:58:40 AM
Gregg, I haven't stated that capitalism is evil. Nothing could be farther from the truth.
If there's anything that I believe is "evil", its extremism. Under the context of capitalism, extreme forms of it don't work. Financial markets cannot completely be self-regulated. A prime example of this are the credit default swaps that were unregulated that have caused the downfall of Lehman Brothers and AIG, which as you know led to the current financial crisis that we're in.
Again, I'd like to state the example of what under your definition is a socialist program called FDIC insurance. If we didn't have this program, there would have been a massive run on the banks resulting in Great Depression #2 when the shit hit the fan earlier this year.
I also think that when you compare Obama's tax plan to Marxism, you are expressing an extreme view. If Obama was really a socialist, do you really think that Warren Buffet would be one of his key economic advisors? He's proposing a net tax cut which will go to the vast majority of working Americans and to pay for it he's proposing a small tax increase on the wealthiest of Americans that won't be any higher than their tax rate during the Clinton years. By contrast, under McCain's plan, many Americans would have seen very little tax relief except for the very wealthy. Now that's just flat out class warfare.
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RedRobin
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11/9/2008 10:35:40 AM
....
I'm not a Christian but I believe in Christian principles.
The principles of most established religions (or doctrines) are good but some human beings invariably use religion as a power over others. You have only to look at history to see this is so.
Even at a social level, some communities will judge you by your church attendence, or lack of it!
This is why I always find myself objecting to anyone saying "God on our side" - It's propaganda to persuade people that they are in the right and the other guys are evil and it's therefore okay to take their lives. It works both ways and not just Christians who do this.
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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11/9/2008 12:44:12 PM
I'm not a Christian but I believe in Christian principles
This describes most of New Zealanders ( Including Moi)
Using fear of the unknown is the oldest trick in the book IMO-----and then to link it to a belief system that excludes most other religions apart from Zionism is plain looney-------
measured responses from folk show intelligence
---- hate speak as you did to me Sterling shows you are spiteful, and I hope you will desist in future
For the record I called you a 'sheep in wolfs clothing'
you called us collectively "SCUM OF THE EARTH"
I expect an apology!!!
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11/10/2008 6:44:00 AM
S30: Amazing how this evil capitalistic manages to feed and cloth everyone very well and people still till this day who arrive with noth more than the clothes on their back manage to achieve through hard work and determination."
UW: Well said! I couldn't have said it better!!
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11/10/2008 7:05:22 AM
You said: Since I don't believe in religion, its difficult for me to think that anything is a "sin". I'm just trying to understand an apparent contradiction in modern American Republicanism and the teaching of Jesus"
UW: *sigh* You must not really think about these things very often and it's blatantly obvious that you are ignorant of Jesus teachings in the Bible if you don’t' "get it". First off, again, conservatism is up holding of the constitution of the United States of America. The freedom to worship God publically, openly without fear of being jailed or put to death. Conservatism is capitalism which gives everyone the freedom, the opportunity to prosper financially in this country. Conservatism resides in the Republican party and not in the Democratic party. The Democratic party was over taken by communists, Marxists, Stalinists of people like George Soros (who is an atheist and wants to do away with all religions), the groups like daily kos etc....
You said: "From what I can tell, religious social conservatives weren't courted by Republican party until 1917, when they found a common enemy in godless communism. Prior to then, Christians mostly viewed Republicans as the party of fat, greedy, wealthy businessmen. Apparently, some of the extremists in the party continue the war cry today against socialism and communism by trying to link it with the Democratic party, which is not even close to being socialist."
UW: LOL Ummmm....... there are fat, greedy, wealthy business in the Democrat party as well, in fact even more. Man, it's obvious here that you are really ignorant in this area as well. If you think today's Democratic party is not socialist, not Marxists and communists (all the same thing there) you better educate your self on who the party leaders are. All the top leaders in the DNC are very much Marxists and Stalinists etc.... Obama in his own book said he carefully chose his Marxist friends!! Why do you think the conservatives are trying to sound the alarms?!?!? The main stream press is Marxist!! Some admit it and are open about it but most of them try to hide it but their articles prove it!! Did you ever even consider it or even look into it? PLEASE DO!! I know you’re not going to just take my word anyway.
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RedRobin
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11/10/2008 7:56:12 AM
^^^^
When you start debating / arguing / preaching about politics and religious doctrines - In this case it's almost "Was Jesus an American Democrat or Republican?", it's a subject which can never be resolved. Everyone (well, most) will continue bashing the other and trying their best to convert them to their own way of thinking.
Who the feck cares how these different political parties define themselves in such fine detail in their history? It's a bit like going to war over which version of a book called The Holy Bible is 'The Truth'.
Anyway, don't mind me and please continue enjoying your debate - Seen from outside, it's somewhat tedious - In my opinion.
Better to be kind and considerate to your neighbour and try to be a good human being.
....
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11/10/2008 8:48:01 AM
RR: In this case it's almost "Was Jesus an American Democrat or Republican?"
UW: LOL No, Jesus didn't have a (D) or a (R) after His name. However, it is the conservative wing of the GOP who are more in line with Jesus teachings so that's why I choose to vote as a conservative Republican.
RR: "Everyone (well, most) will continue bashing the other and trying their best to convert them to their own way of thinking."
UW: Honetsly, I have learned a lot through my dealings on the internet communities. It's the people who are geniunely searching for truth who are the ones who listen and care. I know that most here are not in that catagory but I choose to post so that if there are any hwo view that are genuinely searching can see a voice other then that of communists and Marxist thugs. ;)
RR: "Better to be kind and considerate to your neighbour and try to be a good human being."
UW: Very true! Which is how Jesus summed up all the Old testament... love thy neightbor as thy self and to seek God adn put His first!
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RedRobin
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11/10/2008 8:59:34 AM
^^^^
UW - Fair enough.
To me, it seems a great shame if political parties adopt strongly integrated religious doctrines - It adulterates religion with politics and makes it vulnerable to power games. English Henry VIII's period in history being a very good example and relatively recent. I actually think that nothing has changed that much.
Personally, I'm not searching and I try to be open-minded and respect the beliefs of others. Live and let live.
:)
I'm now tempted to post a vid of Billy Idol's "Rebel Yell" but it would be so far off topic!! Also, some may feel it's the music of The Devil.
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11/10/2008 9:27:08 AM
RR: I'm now tempted to post a vid of Billy Idol's "Rebel Yell" but it would be so far off topic!! Also, some may feel it's the music of The Devil."
UW: LOL Uhh.... not me. Go for it, while we still have free speech. LOL
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RedRobin
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11/10/2008 10:15:22 AM
---- Updated 11/10/2008 10:15:53 AM
....
UW - I already posted it in Hugh's blog "Imagine", so I'll respect the original blogger tarotkid here and not go so far off topic.
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Holo Lukaloa
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11/10/2008 10:43:55 AM
Unique Werks, is Mother Teresa a commie too? How about Grandma Moses? How about Martin Luther King, was he a socialist?
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11/10/2008 10:53:04 AM
HL: "Unique Werks, is Mother Teresa a commie too? How about Grandma Moses? How about Martin Luther King, was he a socialist?"
UW: ROTFL Uhhhhhh..... you tell me? Were they?
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Holo Lukaloa
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11/10/2008 10:59:20 AM
from your vantage point?
King Yes
Grandma Yes
Mother Teresa Maybe, you'll have to investigate further.
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never never band
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11/10/2008 11:00:39 AM
---- Updated 11/10/2008 12:49:15 PM
Unique Werks..
I think it's telling by your standards the only "true seekers" are people who are ready to swallow christianity, or more particularly your "unique" version of Christianity.
]Anyone else is a "marxist"?
HA HA!!
that's a bit McCarthyesque ...to put as kindly as I can.
Some of us are seekers for truth in another realm, the fact that you and your crapulous creed despise the realm of Science, of empirical data, or people with the stones and the fortitude to put each idea to the test whether it be prayer or Particle collision...
Really, a bit of computer music and a shrill clarion call against the supposed lurking Marxism in progressive politics doesn't give you a lot of credibility.
Is that all you're standing on?
Be careful friend, the ground beneath your feet is none too stable.
I know it's popular right now in the Low Information crowd (values voters) to talk up the steady and inevitable march from middle class tax relief to communism!!
heh..
but really, you must think we're stupid.
Please, in YOUR OWN WORDS explain how the "marxist takeover of the media" and progressive political ideas are leading to this world to the Fascism you envision.
I just don't get get...I think you read the "left behind" series by flashlight under your covers...perhaps one too many nights. But I'll give the benefit of the doubt for a moment..
ready
set
GO!!!
Frater P.
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Beth Fridinger
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11/10/2008 12:40:29 PM
This is so true!
"If you really think that the aim of American conservatism is to protect the Constitution, weren't you outraged at the many attempts made by the Bush administration to circumvent the checks and balances that were established by the Constitution?"
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Beth Fridinger
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11/10/2008 12:46:01 PM
I truly believe in complete separation of religion and politics...in order to preserve every individual's freedom to choose their beliefs and not have other's beliefs thrust on them. I would hate to live in a culture say like Afganistan, where they have sharia law....Some extreme right wing folks would like to institute their beliefs on others in this country and I believe they have not learned from cultures like that in places like Afganistan.
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11/10/2008 2:36:39 PM
HL: from your vantage point?
King Yes
Grandma Yes
Mother Teresa Maybe, you'll have to investigate further."
UW: Sad. Your response proves you assume a lot, don't understand much and are stuck in stereo typical remarks.
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11/10/2008 2:55:27 PM
NNB: I think it's telling by your standards the only "true seekers" are people who are ready to swallow christianity, or more particularly your "unique" version of Christianity.
]Anyone else is a "marxist"?"
UW: And by your response, I'd say you're a hard core atheist and anyone who believes in God or any god(s) is a fool. Am I right? Ever heard of Dinesh D'Souza? I strongly recommend you read his book, "What's So Great About Christianity". Even skeptics and atheists praise his book. And I don't expect his book to convert you but educate you. And no I do not think anyone else who disagrees with me is a Marxist.
NNB: "HA HA!! that's a bit McCarthyesque ...to put as kindly as I can."
UW: No, actually it's based on facts that you are obviously ignorant about.
NNB:Some of us are seekers for truth in another realm, the fact that you and your crapulous creed despise the realm of Science, of empirical data, or people with the stones and the fortitude to put each idea to the test whether it be prayer or Particle collision.."
UW: Again, you're ignorant in this matter. Please read "What's So Great About Christianity"... there's so much you need to update your stereo type response on. Good grief your way behind the times.
NNB: know it's popular right now in the Low Information crowd (values voters) to talk up the steady and inevitable march from middle class tax relief to communism!!"
UW: *SIGH* It's very obvious that it's you who lack education in this matter. You assume I think a tax relief would be "communism" when it's called tax relief. Actually a tax relief would be based conservative principles. Trickle down economics... sound familiar? And besides, I think you're trying or attempting to mean I might perhaps think it's socialism. I always welcome a tax relief!! :) Socialism, which is what you were attempting to mean? Maybe?
NNB: but really, you must think we're stupid"
UW: I said no such thing...... but you seem to be proving it by your responses.
NNB: Please, in YOUR OWN WORDS explain how the "marxist takeover of the media" and progressive political ideas are leading to this world to the Fascism you envision."
UW: That would take too long..... why not investigate this yourself because you don't seem to believe anything say or I'm too much in the dark ages. Ever heard of the internet searches like Google or Yahoo? The more I think about this the more I can't help but wonder which rock you've been hiding under. Oi vey.......
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Andy Broad
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11/10/2008 4:24:10 PM
"
NNB: Please, in YOUR OWN WORDS explain how the "marxist takeover of the media" and progressive political ideas are leading to this world to the Fascism you envision."
UW: That would take too long..... why not investigate this yourself because you don't seem to believe anything say or I'm too much in the dark ages. Ever heard of the internet searches like Google or Yahoo? The more I think about this the more I can't help but wonder which rock you've been hiding under. Oi vey.......
"
No UW enough of the diatribes and copouts, why don't you actually explain what a marxist is (feel free to quote but name your sources) and then explain how the media in the states fits the de_scription, or Obamama or any other person you attach the label too.
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11/10/2008 4:42:20 PM
---- Updated 11/10/2008 4:51:47 PM
AB: No UW enough of the diatribes and copouts, why don't you actually explain what a marxist is (feel free to quote but name your sources) and then explain how the media in the states fits the de__ion, or Obamama or any other person you attach the label too."
UW: If I do answer what will be your reactions but to pick it apart and attack me personally? If people appreciated what I'm saying there would be no hesitation on my part. I say this based on the responses I've gotten so far. I honestly can't believe I would have to point this out anyway. Even the most liberal people admit this...... Wow.... I just can't believe this.... I honestly expected better responses here... I'm speechless here in amazement... Don't just take my word for it.... Not exactly my sources but you can see for yourself ....copy & past this in your favorite search engine and see where it comes from... "mainstream media is Marxist" and "Obama is Marxist"
http://www.google.com/
http://www.yahoo.com/
http://www.live.com/
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Andy Broad
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11/10/2008 5:03:30 PM
---- Updated 11/10/2008 5:09:56 PM
If you could prove you knew what you talking about, I wouldn't attack personally, if you scan through posting in this site you'll find I've never attacked anyone.
I probably wouldn't agree with you ... but attack you, no.
I don't agree with Sterling30 (very often) but at least he can string an argument together ....
A quote from the first hit on your suggested search
"
Now in the dialogue of American politics, there are few classic-and loaded-charges. "Appeaser" is one. "Isolationist" is another. And "Marxist" would have to be right up there with those two. I think to call someone a Marxist, you have to provide some evidence that he 1) believes capitalism is based on exploitation and 2) is calling for a worker's revolution.
"
[edit]
Corrected my appalling spelling so my post at least made some kind of sense!
[/edit]
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Pulse Eternal
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11/10/2008 5:06:47 PM
If you KNOW and have faith in God, these are what matter.
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11/10/2008 5:12:40 PM
---- Updated 11/10/2008 5:36:57 PM
AB: "I probably wouldn't agree with you ... but attack you, no.
I don't agree with Sterling30 (very often) but at least he can string an argument together .."
UW: Since you're being sensible about it.... OK. My response is in the thread I started about Marxism is coming to USA January 20th
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Eric Steffensen
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11/10/2008 5:42:22 PM
Unique Werkx wrote: "UW: *sigh* You must not really think about these things very often and it's blatantly obvious that you are ignorant of Jesus teachings in the Bible if you don’t' "get it"."
Just because I don't believe in religion doesn't mean that I'm ignorant of Jesus's teachings. That's the second time you've made an incorrect assumption about me. Please don't be so quick to judge, not only is it insulting but that too is against the teachings of Jesus.
Unique Werkx wrote: "First off, again, conservatism is up holding of the constitution of the United States of America. The freedom to worship God publically, openly without fear of being jailed or put to death."
I find it interesting that in one sentence you can claim that you believe in upholding the Constitution, and in the next you demonize the press. When was the last time that someone was jailed or put to death in this country for practicing their religion?
Unique Werkx wrote: "Conservatism is capitalism which gives everyone the freedom, the opportunity to prosper financially in this country. Conservatism resides in the Republican party and not in the Democratic party."
Capitalism has existed, people have been free, and have prospered financially under Republican and Democratic regimes.
Unique Werkx wrote:"The Democratic party was over taken by communists, Marxists, Stalinists of people like George Soros (who is an atheist and wants to do away with all religions), the groups like daily kos etc...."
No, it wasn't.
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Pulse Eternal
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11/10/2008 5:53:27 PM
---- Updated 11/10/2008 6:02:42 PM
Unique Werkx wrote: "First off, again, conservatism is up holding of the constitution of the United States of America. The freedom to worship God publically, openly without fear of being jailed or put to death."
Here's a small note from God on this matter:
Matthew 6
6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen by them: otherwise ye have NO reward from your Father which is in heaven.
6:2 Therefore when thou doest [thine] alms, do NOT sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites DO in the churches and in the streets, that they may have glory from MEN. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret Himself shall reward thee openly.
6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt NOT be as the hypocrites [ARE]: for they love to pray standing in the churches and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and WHEN THOU HAST SHUT THY DOOR, pray to thy Father in private; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
6:7 But when ye pray, use NOT vain repetitions, as the heathen [DO]: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
6:8 Be NOT ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, BEFORE ye ask Him.
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Eric Steffensen
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11/10/2008 6:05:37 PM
Red Robin:
Going off topic to bring music into the discussion is both welcome and appreciated, especially if it involves Rebel Yell by Billy Idol. :)
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never never band
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11/10/2008 7:14:02 PM
---- Updated 11/10/2008 8:17:49 PM
well, Unique Werks I'm not a hard core atheist..And I'll be damned if I'll stoop to putting an X at the end of your name
;)
And I'm not going to clip quotes from your nonsense and refute them as I think that's childish and it's why real communication is so rare on these forums, the very art of conversation is lost.
If you care (which I doubt)
I'm an agnostic who daily drifts more and more towards atheism mainly because of people like you.
I'm a reformed christian actually, I spent more time with the Bible in my childhood than you can imagine, I was an alter boy at my church, I quit that church and had tried 3 others on my own by the time I was 13 and was baptized again just before my 14th birthday much to the consternation of my parents, (to their credit they didn't interfere, at least not at that point) I had a craving for God that you cant imagine......
But I grew up, went through some difficult times and I learned to read works that challenged me rather than works that supported my prejudices and assumptions about the world.
Now my main association with Christians is that I work with two local churches in their food distribution programs, and my feeling is that if the church hopes to save itself from irrelevance it need to focus on Service and Sanctuary, and maybe nothing else...If the Church hopes to restore it's credibility that is, though I really cant tell at this point if they care.
I live in an intensely Catholic Community, and a poor community in the poorest county in the USA.
Really, though Unique werks, you're the one who bolted onto the scene here screaming about Marxism, it's not to much of a stretch to imagine you believe it ...is it?
I'd venture that you really have no Idea what Socialism is, and the way you use the term Marxism, as if it were a synonym kind of proves my point. I mean, I know you can cut and paste and make a lot of noise, but is it any deeper than that?
You understand at least that your state receives more federal dollars than it pays in?
So you are by definition not only a socialist but you're on the receiving end of the "redistribution" scale..
At least you like the idea of Middle Class Tax Cuts, and I'm sure you like the idea of returning the tax structure on the upper classes to where it was in say....1998? 99?
I mean, we need to pay for YOUR war...Que no? (yes, you know you voted for him so don't play games and try to distance yourself now) Not mention trying to repair the economy that the religious right driven moral idiots and Neo Cons have deliberately driven into the ground. I'd give you a suggested reading list on that subject but you wouldn't read it, and I don't want to stoop to your level here.
;)
If you're just one of those who Hate Government, than say so and lets have the real discussion, but don't go playing games about Marxism and Fascism when it's clear you have no idea what your talking about, and no, I wont watch the YouTube video that explains it all so don't bother, you'll have to dig up Sterling if you want to play that game.
As for Study, I'd venture to say that I read more in a year than you've read in in10. And in addition to the subjects of my profession I read journals of Christian Ethics and Moral Philosophy, Civics. These subjects are of intense interest to me. And yes, as such I admit that it annoys me a little that you would give me a suggested reading list, but I can see your just trying to show off a few of the books you've read, so I forgive you.
But really, can you converse?
are you interested in conversation, even if it challenges your world view?
I wonder....
you seem young, but you may have it in you.
Frater P.
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