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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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11/12/2008 1:58:03 PM
"Trolls" What are they? can they drive away listeners?
I have recently been finding out about internet "Trolls"
It seems they are internet sociopaths who inhabit sites just to annoy, abuse and generally create havoceventually driving "normal " folks to other sites?
Of course like all sociopaths they can switch suddenly and be friendly and "normal" but that is just to suck in the other bloggers-
I have been informed we may have a few on this site, and it is causing Possible new artists to give us a wide birthnot funny IMO
Any help with this problem would be appreciated
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Fyvwunsyx
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11/12/2008 2:17:29 PM
I've certainly seen people with very strong opinions around here but no one I'd label a "troll".
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The CODE
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11/12/2008 2:20:46 PM
Duhhhh..ooo...eee...aaa...rrrr...gggg..hhhh
(How do you do 'spit' in internet language)
This site does have a 'normal' amount of honest folks posting.....
doesn't it???
Common sense does not need any polarity, does it???
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Eaglehead
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11/12/2008 2:42:53 PM
Shhh! - rhey're over there......under the rickety rackety bridge...........
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Tony Vani and Debbie Hoskin
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11/12/2008 3:05:55 PM
Wow! That is very exciting. Right here at IAC we have trolls? I have a collection of trolls that I collected as a kid. I love trolls. Would trolls be anons? Am I an annoying troll? I think I can be pretty annoying at times. I even annoy myself. :-) deb
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Vincenzo Pandolfi
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11/12/2008 3:06:16 PM
There was an Italian band called The New Trolls....but they are not hiding in here.....
I only see good trolls at IAC...
Vincenzo
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RedRobin
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11/12/2008 3:57:16 PM
....
I frequent a number of motorsport internet forums and 'trolls' appear once or twice a year. The sites are well moderated (in fact I am a Moderator myself on one site) and so such troublemakers are fairly swiftly booted off after being given chances to mend their ways and not spoil the discussions for the rest of the community.
I would hope that if trolls appeared here, the IAC Moderators would do some moderating.
....
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Tony Vani and Debbie Hoskin
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11/12/2008 4:27:50 PM
Who are these trolls? Would the trolls please come forward and present yourselves!
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Tony Vani and Debbie Hoskin
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11/12/2008 4:31:46 PM
How can troll posts be recognised?
No Imagination - Most are frighteningly obvious; sexist comments on nurses' groups, blasphemy on religious groups .. I kid you not.
Pedantic in the Extreme - Many trolls' preparation is so thorough, that while they waste time, they appear so ludicrous from the start that they elicit sympathetic mail - the danger is that once the group takes sides, the damage is done.
False Identity - Because they are cowards, trolls virtually never write over their own name, and often reveal their trolliness (and lack of imagination) in the chosen ID. As so many folk these days use false ID, this is not a strong indicator on its own!
Crossposting - Any post that is crossposted to several groups should be viewed as suspicious, particularly if unrelated or of opposing perspective. Why would someone do that?
Off-topic posting - Often genuine errors, but, if from an 'outsider' they deserve matter-of-fact response; if genuine, a brief apposite response is simply netiquette; if it's a troll post, you have denied it its reward.
Repetition of a question or statement is either a troll - or a pedant; either way, treatment as a troll is effective.
Missing The Point - Trolls rarely answer a direct question - they cannot, if asked to justify their twaddle - so they develop a fine line in missing the point.
Thick or Sad - Trolls are usually sad, lonely folk, with few social skills; they rarely make what most people would consider intelligent conversation. However, they frequently have an obsession with their IQ and feel the need to tell everyone. This is so frequent, that it is diagnostic! Somewhere on the web there must be an Intelligence Test for Trolls - rigged to always say "above 150"
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Hugh Hamilton
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11/12/2008 4:40:07 PM
---- Updated 11/12/2008 4:45:22 PM
Here's my Mock-n-Troll song...
Yes, I believe the trolls can and do drive away not only listeners but artists. I think they have done so - are doing so - and shall continue to do so.
The best defense is to ignore them though that often takes more strength than I have at my disposal.
To my way of thinking their single most salient characteristic is that they stoop very quickly to personal attacks rather than adhering to any semblance of reasonable conversational discourse. This is of course because they are (a) not intelligent, (b) very insecure, (c) usually anonymous and thus unafraid of "consequences" but can be because they are (d) not at all sincere and are actually quite (e) mean and thus (f) enjoy watching people react to their (g) BULLSHIT.
xo,
H
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The Man With No Band
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11/12/2008 4:47:21 PM
I'm trolling for Deb ... (must be a hole in my net) ... Ahhhhhhhh ... What-A-Catch that would be ! ... :)
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Tony Vani and Debbie Hoskin
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11/12/2008 4:52:16 PM
Sam!! You don't need a net! I'll just jump in the boat and we can go cruisin............
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Hugh Hamilton
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11/12/2008 4:55:07 PM
That SamCat...ooh-la-la...
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Larry Migliore
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11/12/2008 4:59:28 PM
Trolls are very bad. Their cousin the mole is also quite insidious and stealthy. However Rob, it's the Gnome ewe should be wary about.
A gnome is a mythical creature characterized by its extremely small size and subterranean lifestyle
They are vewwwwwy sneaky!
Tell Mr. Sheep to beware!
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The Man With No Band
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11/12/2008 5:04:40 PM
Woooooo Hoooooooo !!!!!!!!!
I should have been a troll a long time ago ! .... This is GREAT !!!!!!!!!!!
Deb, my boats not a yacht ... but a little wine and a little moon .... and everything looks a little more grand ....
Somebody play us some music please .... :)
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Tony Vani and Debbie Hoskin
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11/12/2008 5:19:12 PM
Cool! I'll bring the life jackets, just in case we get a little tipsy from the wine...........wouldn't want to wreck the fun by drowning. :-)
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The Man With No Band
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11/12/2008 5:24:37 PM
Just bring one .... it's cozier that way ... :)
Besides sailing off with you might just be enough to KILL me .... ahhhhhhhhh what a beautiful way to die ... :)
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the perfect banana
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11/12/2008 6:35:09 PM
Silverwood Studio - Anybody who would tell you there are trolls here scaring away listeners obviously has never taken a gander at the rest of the internet. This site from what I've seen is quicker to deal with hateful individuals than practically anywhere.
IAC does have one or 2 neocon rightwing nuts but they give the intelligent people something to do.
The closest thing IAC has to a troll is Hugh, who constantly goes around acting like everybody on the net should use their full names and social security numbers or they are immoral individuals. :D
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Conversation Suicide
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11/12/2008 11:52:19 PM
I'm definitely NOT a troll. I swear.
OH WAIT -- I forgot to read rule Number 23, up above: "trolls will be the first to swear they are NOT one"
Yowwwwttch! I do see a SLIGHT danger of censorship with some of the TROLL Identification Laws posted above.
Anyhoo, Can I be a cute fuzzy little Gnome instead? Like that travelocity guy & such? Thanks. -luv, pHLeGmie
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Pulse Eternal
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11/13/2008 1:20:59 AM
I sweearz I iz just an innisent wittle pussycat!!! Really! I izn't a troll....
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BonsaiChainsaw
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11/13/2008 4:12:07 AM
I thought trolls were those hairy little bastards that hid under bridges and ate goats.
No wait- that's my wife's side of the family.
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Tony Vani and Debbie Hoskin
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11/13/2008 5:30:51 AM
Ahhhhhhhhhhhh Sam.....you'd better not die on me. :-) xo
Bannana man, it's awful trollish to be attacking Hugh right now. (unless, of course, Perfect Bannana is your real name?)
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11/13/2008 5:58:10 AM
MWNB: I'm trolling for Deb ... (must be a hole in my net) ... Ahhhhhhhh ... What-A-Catch that would be ! ... :)
UW: Thank you!! That made my day!!!! Great sense of humor!!!!! *still_chuckling*
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the perfect banana
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11/13/2008 7:50:04 AM
I go by my middle name, Perfect. :D
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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11/13/2008 12:41:56 PM
some great posts here---
funny and thought provoking-----
Personally I don't like censorship---and i don't think it is the answer as a 'troll' can just come back with a different ID
Anyways I didn't just post this "off the cuff" i have been having conversations with artists outside IAC and some of them have a low opinion of this place (I invited them to join)
One 'expert' suggested we were a toxic site for musos and our numbers are not going up????????
Why-----Too many "toxic" and personal attacks on the front page
(these are NOT my comments) they are from---- possible new artists!!!
Now Silverwooders--- have two Prime and one other site here and we have a vested interest that IAC should be growing faster than any other because it has the best format and (with the stations ) we can spread the great music here all over the web!!!
My plea to Pipeline posters would be---
Do you want to drive folk away, or do you want a lively discourse with clever ideas and hopefully some humour and passion??
If you put up "Toxic " posts I would hope the artists here would "not feed the trolls"
by simply ignoring toxic posts------this applies to both the left and the right of the political divide
How do you know if a post is toxic?
rude
aggressive
obvious
cowardly
anonymous
repitition
missing the point
personal attacks
mean
spiteful
lack of humour
I posted this solely to protect My favorite site--- iacmusic.com------ in which 'We' have a vested interest of both money and time
plus many and varied close friends---- from both sides of the political spectrum
ewe insult my friend-------ewe insult me!!!
I apologise to ewe all for being so serious!!!! i hate that!!!!
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RedRobin
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11/13/2008 12:58:13 PM
....
"Personally I don't like censorship---and i don't think it is the answer as a 'troll' can just come back with a different ID"
....I don't like censorship either but I think the line needs to be drawn somewhere. At the risk of being pedantic, we block a troll's IP address so it doesn't make any difference what ID he/she adopts. Any webmaster or Moderator can do this.
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11/13/2008 1:02:00 PM
It seems that trolls are rampant on just about every forum there is. There's always some one posting for the purpose of stirring up tensions. If there were a moderator here that might stop; shame that it would have to be censored though, eh?
There's always that person that no matter how nice you try to be, they're always spewing pernicious garbage.
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Magnetfisch
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11/13/2008 1:19:57 PM
yeah, but luckily, just like in "Lord of the rings", it's not the trolls that win in the end 8-) Phew!
rock'n roll
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the perfect banana
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11/13/2008 3:28:04 PM
Silverwood, I repeat that the only people who could possibly have that reaction are artists who have never looked at other sites, there is much more extreme behavior at all of them that I know of.
Also there are hundreds of sites online that provide ways to allow you to get around IP blocks, so that's not really useful for true trolls. Fortunately there aren't any here that I've seen.
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Chris Hance
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11/13/2008 4:38:46 PM
And at the opposite end of the troll spectrum is the vanilla bland or sickly sweet smothering of nannyhood and false nicetey nice
A turgid monoculture void of imagination or creative thinking out of the box, the misinterpretation of the thought challenge, the provacation of non religion, the denial of heaven, the commiment to self belief and personal fullfilment in this life, not the dusty returned to the base self future, the realisation. of hate.
Go on fucking delete that ya cuntz!!!
scroll down...>
oops, this is the music forum....sorry everyone...appreciate the humour ;)
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Kevin White
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11/13/2008 6:11:29 PM
---- Updated 11/13/2008 7:18:43 PM
Trolls are cute small plastic dolls with neon hair.
Are you trying to tell me that they're foul mouthed bastards who eat goats under bridges and invade music sites to create dissension and malcontent?
I KNEW they were too cute.
I ALWAYS suspected them.
Damn trolls ...
MELT THEM, MELT THEM ALL I SAY!!!!
lol ..
K-
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Black Velvet Lace
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11/14/2008 1:01:22 PM
Well, I don't know about new artists, but I've noticed people here who would fit the "troll" de_scription and so this relatively new artist decided to do other things with my time than post much here anymore.
~Lace~
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fly on the wall
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11/14/2008 3:54:59 PM
Well thanks for stopping by to tell us that. :~D
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11/14/2008 6:12:23 PM
It would be great to be able to block out certain people like a type of email filter.... where you have the option to block out the ones you don't like. That's my recommendation cause there's a few posters that post nothing productive to IAC. When you come to IAC you expect to see great tips & hang out with fans & musicians etc.....
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never never band
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11/14/2008 7:14:17 PM
heh...be careful what you wish for, especially if it's put to vote..
you may discover that more people are annoyed by you than you imagine.
:-)
anyway, I think the "gated community" approach is gross.
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Black Velvet Lace
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11/14/2008 8:49:16 PM
"Well thanks for stopping by to tell us that. :~D"
Well, you're welcome.
This used to be a great place to post about music. A few newcomers I recently pointed to the site just blew it off as one more internet free-for-all to avoid. With even several of the regulars complaining now, that IAC doesn't seem to care much about taking a chance of losing serious musicians to trolls is rather perplexing to me.
~Lace~
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fly on the wall
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11/14/2008 10:01:36 PM
Just out of curiosity, do you consider yourself a "serious musician"?
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Twibe
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11/14/2008 11:29:18 PM
I like Trolls mostly, but in a way they are best appreciated by other 'good' trolls - yes, in fact there are good and bad trolls just the same as there are good and bad posters.
Here's a few tips for prospective trolls that take a pride in their output. And IAC has indeed been blessed with some superbly entertaining Trolls.
A troll is no different to any other Usenet posting.
Any article that you decide to write should be written with a view to it actually being read by large numbers of people. Simply X-posting to large numbers of irrelevant newsgroups is not creative trolling - it is just spam and should be avoided.
The experienced troller spends time carefully choosing the right subject and delivering it to the right newsgroup. With trolls, delivery is just as important as the subject.
Start the troll in a reasonable and erudite manner. You have to engage your readers' interest and draw them in.
Never give too much away at the start - although a brief abstract with hints of what's to come can work wonders.
Construct your troll in a manner to make it readable. Use short paragraphs and lots of white space. Keep line length below eighty characters. Use a liberal amount of emphasis and even the occasional illustration.
A good rule of thumb is that as your troll becomes more and more ludicrous put extra effort into the presentation - this keeps the mug punter confused. Let confusion and chaos be your goal
Make your subject a relevant one. Posting "Star Trek Sucks" where no-one gives a s**t is not going to work very well and is liable to utterly destroy your hard earned reputation as a troller overnight.
You do not have to make the subject clear. Trolls are aimed at two audiences, the respondees and the lurkers.
The best trolls reveal their true subject only to the lurkers. In every sense those who reply to your troll are your tools. So choose a theme for your troll and stick to it.
Outwardly you need to appear sincere, but at the same time you have to tell your *real* audience that this is blatant flamebait. Your skill is shown in the easy way that you manipulate large areas of the Usenet community into making public fools of themselves.
Happy Trolling
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fly on the wall
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11/15/2008 3:20:02 AM
I fear I'm not as ludicrous of a troll as I used to be. :~D
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Conversation Suicide
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11/15/2008 3:24:15 AM
Damn Fly, You're not a troll-- you do far too many POSITIVE things up in here.
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Phlegm
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11/15/2008 3:36:17 AM
troll--schmoll --- This blog is dumb.
Just because you come across as "aggressive" sometimes, or use foul language, your a troll? BULLSHIT.
Go get a life & find something REAL to worry about.
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Andy Broad
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11/15/2008 3:45:17 AM
---- Updated 11/15/2008 3:51:37 AM
Fly is cool most of the time, his offbeat threads can be entertaining, and produce occasioanal interesting discussions, but I have to say his response to Lace was uncalled for and far closer to real trolling. A former regular sticks their head above the parapet and straght away you shoot them down, nice!
Intriguingly the question it self would make a great thread in it's own right.....
The concept of a "mute" option (ironicaly suggested by one of the trolls [why beat about the bush?]) can be useful on a irc channel or chat window but is not functional on a forum like this, also only logged in users can use it so it does litle good when trying expound the virtues of the site elsewhere.
The only way to deal with trolls is to ignore them although to very hard to do because of the nature of what they post.
Tellme, was this site arround at the time of the last americam election? If it was did it get infected then? How long did it take for the infection to cure itself?
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fly on the wall
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11/15/2008 4:26:16 AM
---- Updated 11/15/2008 4:28:01 AM
I found Lace's post disingenuous and that's why I responded the way I did. Why come on here and bitch about why you left? I saw her start a hassle with somebody else who is a friend of mine who wasn't even talking to her. Does that make her a troll too or is her name really Black Velvet Lace and if it was, would that make it okay?
Real trolling my ass. Have you ever been at the forums of other music sites?
IAC made it clear numerous times that political posts were welcome here, it even says so in their rules. Just because you aren't interested doesn't give you the right to call political posts an infection. I'm not interested in politics either so I just don't open those blogs usually, is that so hard? Of course not.
A "regular" is somebody who contributes regularly. Even that Unique Werkz bozo is a regular no matter how fuelish his ideas seem to be. Your assertion that IAC should bend over backwards for some kind of contributors and not others has little merit in a place that is very genteel compared to most forums online that I've belonged to. I started my page at IAC when they weren't open for more than a year and the politicos and so called trolls brought much of the life to this pipeline. Before they got involved you'd look at it at night and there would be hardly any action from earlier in the day. Now there's always something new to read. I'm glad IAC doesn't cater to cliques because if they did, by now the regular crybabies (the same 3 or 4 people) would've gotten to them for sure. :~D
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RedRobin
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11/15/2008 5:18:21 AM
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Fly - You say IAC doesn't cater for cliques - Independent Artists Clique is how many outsiders see IAC I'm sorry to say.
I don't see any real trolls in the Pipeline and I think people shouldn't use the term just to insult someone without real evidence of troll behaviour. Or is it just the latest kool word in the school playground?
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Conversation Suicide
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11/15/2008 5:23:24 AM
Haaaa... That was good Mr. Robin -- "latest kool word in the school playground" -- hheee heee
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fly on the wall
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11/15/2008 5:53:46 AM
So, Red Robin, who is in this clique you speak of? Name names. :~D
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Tony Vani and Debbie Hoskin
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11/15/2008 7:45:58 AM
I would not like to see censorship, blocking certain people who may cause upset. I enjoy the diversity and the outrageous. Who will determine what is valuble and what is not? I find it all entertaining. I find "Fly" to be hilariously honest. (don't let it go to your head Fly) :-) I don't like personal attacks on people just out of no-where. They frighten me. However, I've posted some opinionated remarks where I was totally prepared to be blasted but sighed a sigh of relief when I was not blasted. LOL I just ignore people (or trollish people) that bug me. Generally, I don't like to fight but sometimes enjoy watching other people fight. (that's sick) deb
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Tony Vani and Debbie Hoskin
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11/15/2008 8:09:26 AM
Let me clarify why I sometimes enjoy watching other's argue passionately (fight), on iac. I am impressed with the level of intelligence here and of how rock solid the personalities are. I just felt a need to defend myself here. LOL
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RedRobin
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11/15/2008 8:15:48 AM
---- Updated 11/15/2008 8:18:27 AM
....
Dear Fly, put away your wooden spoon - I'm too much of a gentleman to name names :)
Besides, was it me or outsiders I know, who accused IAC of clique-iness?
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fly on the wall
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11/15/2008 8:16:39 AM
No need to defend yourself Debbie, you're right about everything you said. If that mean clique comes on here to give you a hard time, I'll rip em a new one. :~D
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The Man With No Band
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11/15/2008 8:17:31 AM
... get back in the boat dear ... :)
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Andy Broad
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11/15/2008 8:24:05 AM
---- Updated 11/15/2008 9:43:18 AM
@Fly
I found Lace's post disingenuous and that's why I responded the way I did. Why come on here and bitch about why you left?
Well considering the subject of this thread and context that doesn't seem so unreasonbale. If she'd posted it in another thread and thus off topic I'd agree with you.
I saw her start a hassle with somebody else who is a friend of mine who wasn't even talking to her. Does that make her a troll too or is her name really Black Velvet Lace and if it was, would that make it okay?
No idea what you refering too, so I can't comment. As to her name, I presume it's a stage name / band name, possibly based on her real name, I don't know. I don't have an issue with usernames your confusing me with someone else.
Real trolling my ass. Have you ever been at the forums of other music sites?
No I haven't spent a lot of time on other music forums, but I have spent much time on amiga related forums, and so I know what trolling is. I've seen sites totally taken out by the trolling from various sides, I wouldn't like to see that happen to IAC. To be honest I think IAC does fairly well considering the hands of nature of the moderation. I do think it has gonedown hill a little lately.
Perhaps the absense of a 'pipe line hostess' directing but not controlling the debates and discussions has something to do with that....
Your assertion that IAC should bend over backwards for some kind of contributors and not others has little merit in a place that is very genteel compared to most forums online that I've belonged to.
I asserted no such thing.
IAC made it clear numerous times that political posts were welcome here, it even says so in their rules. Just because you aren't interested doesn't give you the right to call political posts an infection. I'm not interested in politics either so I just don't open those blogs usually, is that so hard? Of course not.
I don't have an objection to political threads, only the political mud fight / flame bait threads we seem to have gained in the aftermath of the election. A combination of sour grapes from the "losers" and "gloating" from the winners perhaps but I get sense of conflict in the pieline discussions that wasn;t repsent when I joined a year or so ago. I am interested in politics so that makes them all the worse. Yes I am trying to avoid topics started by certain authors, but it never so simple. All the headlines end up in the same pipeline, there isn't a politiacl forum and amusic forum and a such and such forum, this is both the strength and weakness of it.
So when I asked if the infection went away after a while, it's the effect of the election I was asking about. Perhaps a bad choice of words.
Part of me wants to pile into these political threads and set them right, but I suspect, know even that would just be pooring petrol on the fire and geting myslef upset at the same time!
[edit]
Fixed a couple of missing words, and an incorrect html tag
[/edit]
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Andy Broad
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11/15/2008 8:30:31 AM
@Red Robin
If the outside has taken enough notice to think we are cliquey (sic) we must be doing well! Most people I know have never heard of the site and think I'm slightly mad when I talk about it :-)
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The Man With No Band
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11/15/2008 9:00:36 AM
"Fly - You say IAC doesn't cater for cliques - Independent Artists Clique is how many outsiders see IAC I'm sorry to say."
RedRobin ...
If they are non-IACer's how would they know ? ... It's easy to look into someone's window and IMAGINE what's going on ... I've been here a long while now and I haven't seen it ... Most here will talk to anyone ... I'll talk to anyone (except one guy who has banned me from his post) ... and that's his prerogative and doesn't bother me ... that doesn't make him Cliquish
... sure some are gearheads, some are politico's, some are poets etc. etc. ... if a thread doesn't fall under something you like, does it make one Cliquish if they don't join the discussion ? ... or make them Cliquish if they do ?
The Cliques don't exist except in the minds of those that would be Cliquish IMO...
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Richard Scotti
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11/15/2008 9:26:14 AM
---- Updated 11/15/2008 9:31:24 AM
IAC can't be all things to all people. One person's perfect website is another person's imperfect site. This place is like a store and we are the customers. We contribute to making the store successful but the owners run the store. If they knew how to please 100% of the customers it would be in their best interests to do so.But there is no magic formula that can accomplish that. They obviously have a game plan that they are sticking to and it comes from their personal beliefs as to how to run a "store". Customers can come in and look around and they can buy stuff or talk to other customers or just hang out like at Starbucks! And anybody that doesn't like some element of the store is free to leave. No one is forced to stay or buy anything. They may not like the decor or even the other customers! But the owners can't put a sign up at the door restricting certain kinds of people. They welcome everyone and trust that people will work out their own differences or preferences. If somebody really gets out of hand they every right to call security and eject the person but you can't eject people for purely subjective reasons.
We all have things that we like and dislike about IAC but I have to agree that this
is an amazingly genteel site as compared to other sites. If I see a poster who I know is a trouble maker I just don't post on that person's blog. They tend to bait others into a fight but it's so easy to just ignore them. Ignoring them sends them a message that the bait isn't working. The fewer the responses the more that person will realize that it doesn't pay to start fights when there are no willing participants.
Would I like to get rid of all the "toxic" posters and toxic posts? Sure. But it's not my store. I shop here but I'm not the owner. I have put my notes in the suggestion box because this is a great store and it can always improve and although I contribute to this store's success with my patronage, it is not my responsibility to make sure that other customers stay or leave. It's just none of my business. And frankly I don't percieve that people are leaving in droves because of this or that defect. The site is well populated as it is and for every person who leaves there is someone new who comes on board. With all the things going on in the world these days I wouldn't lose sleep over "trolls". IAC is a work in progress. It isn't perfect and it never will be but so far it's the best I've seen. They seem very open to hearing our suggestions on how to improve things. E-mailing them is the best channel for directing some of these concerns. If I ran the site, I'd do some things differently but I don't so I can't. I just enjoy the things I like and ignore the rest. And there is much to like, despite the problems (imo)
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RedRobin
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11/15/2008 10:21:34 AM
---- Updated 11/15/2008 10:23:03 AM
....
Andy & Sam -
I should have better qualified who I meant by "outsiders" - A few people who are (as far as I know) still IAC members but have this opinion of clique-iness and so are no longer active here. To be fair, I can understand that point of view, but as Richard says, a site can't be all things to all people.
Richard -
A great analogy with a shop. In my own experience of sites (non music), I don't find the Pipeline particularly "genteel" at all and I have read too many very angry and personalised exchanges at times and there has been absolutely no moderation exercised by those who run this site.
I have always found that when people who have formed 'virtual' relationships have actually met in person face-to-face, there is subsequently far more respect shown for the other's opinions when there are big differences expressed in the forum (blog or virtual arena). So, for example, if Steve Ison and I were to meet face-to-face, we might know and understand each other better instead of what has historically happened between us on the Pipeline. On the other hand.... :)
I would hope that everyone on any forum/blog/discussion on the internet understands that everything is "IMO" (In My Opinion only) and this can be taken for granted without repeating it every time.
Back on the original subject of trolls effecting listeners, I don't see how people listening to music here can possibly be effected because surely trolls can only inhabit places where there is discussion and not on Artists Pages or Stations. If such people post there, then surely they become spammers.
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Richard Scotti
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11/15/2008 10:30:16 AM
Red Robin - I also disapprove of personal attacks. You can't have a well functioning civilization without civility.
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the perfect grape
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11/15/2008 10:40:49 AM
I just stopped by to stick up for the crybabies. As far as I'm concerned the IAC crybabies are less unbearable than crybabies I've seen on other sites.
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Jesse Adams
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11/15/2008 12:35:15 PM
Anybody wanna make a bet that the perfect banana and the perfect grape is the same person?
Anyone?
I got five on it.
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the perfect cherry
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11/15/2008 12:59:47 PM
It's not true. They are both my cousins and I'm here to attest that they are rather different.
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Tony Vani and Debbie Hoskin
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11/15/2008 2:25:07 PM
Thanks Fly. You're a rather interesting Fly. I think it's funny how you often say what people are thinking, but then you get in shit for it by the same people who were thinking it.
Sam! Don't take off without me! Sam I can't imagine anyone blocking you from their page! That's really quite funny. What in tarnation did you do to them?
deb
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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11/15/2008 2:32:56 PM
I've been sitting on a tractor, mowing hay for a couple days (spring here) ---- but here goes!
My "troll expert" (heh) suggested that putting a post up------ would act as some sort of "troll deterent" (like flypaper) ----watch your feet Fly!
However at this early stage i can't say whether that is true?
some thoughts
data ----I think that was funny but my (much brighter) son said nay!
Lace---same thoughts __ i will expand this one later
Fly --I like it better when ewe talk about your sexlife!
Unique W--probably won't happen?
Twibe----fine post----good /bad yes !!----but also we have "established enemies" ?(combatants)
Phelgm---I think not!---If ewe take this to it's ultimate conclusion ,there will just be me and ewe left here listening to each others music (or not)
Andy----i like the cut of your jib ----seriously!!!
Fly---that's the lowest common denominator theory ---every one pisses on each other-- ad infinitum-------and no one wonders why?
Red Robin ---I find some agreement ---
Debs --Hi --i thought ewe night change canoes soon?
Sam ---there's a wee hole in your boat hehe
Andy again ----this IS a major point----the pipeline is an X factor here, but also can be a weakness (it is our "Shop window")
Sam ---cliques ----i think that argument is a red herring too!
Richard --Thanks, agree with ALL that-----but there's more to it----wait!
Red R-----virtual vs real ---absolutely!
Jesse----hi mate---what about the banana?
finally-----I have read each reply so far, excepting the one which may have slipped in while I type with ONE finger
IAC has put some new ways for us to make (some) $$$$$ by paying a small ammount for a song/play --I applaud this!
However-----while the numbers here remain small the ammount will be a pittance!!!
A while back we had numbers on the front going up to over 200, 000 and some songs were getting 10,000 hits a month------compare that to today!!!!
This is one small attempt to wake some bloggers up to the fact that-------------------- like it or not !
TOXIC posts -----drive away the customers!!!
It ain't rocket science!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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11/15/2008 6:50:01 PM
SS, I don't usually get involved in these sort of posts but I'd like to clarify something. The site statistics based on unique users are in the same ballpark as they've been in at various peak times in the history of IAC. Around the time of the Golden Kayaks usage goes up by 20% or so for awhile but traffic has been pretty steady outside of that. Those times you refer to when that counter goes up into the hundred thousands, as best we can figure based on our internal stats this was caused by spiders sent out by Google and the like. In summary we've mentioned this before but don't take that counter as some kind of hardcore indicator. For instance if we reset the site for some repair all the sessions are closed and it goes back to zero.
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Jesse Adams
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11/15/2008 7:47:38 PM
Toby what's a spider?
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Black Velvet Lace
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11/15/2008 7:53:06 PM
"Just out of curiosity, do you consider yourself a "serious musician"?"
When I was referring to the possibility of losing serious musicians to trolls at IAC, I wasn't referring to me as I hardly qualify with only one song posted and a cover at that. In addition, I come online to escape the heaviness of my regular profession and usually avoid the heavier conversations. So, honestly, who would even miss me if I left? But I'll answer your question.
In terms of my real life outside of the internet, where I've successfully played the local circuit for more than 2 decades, diligently built a solid reputation, and am known among our musician circles, I am very serious. My peers know that and I am respected, or so I've been told.
My whole point in saying what I did is that if IAC wants to be associated with the quality of such as Cashbox Magazine, and taken seriously as *the* premier musician's site of the internet, (and I sincerely believe it does), why would it take ANY risk by allowing anything to lower it's standard below gold? Including allowing free reign to forum trolls.
I understand that IAC is reluctant to put a reign on opinions/topics. But I belong to several listservs and forums and have found that those that value their reputation have always drawn a line when people became insulting, demeaning and abusive. Offenders were banned. Those that didn't disintegrated into a mess and saw a slowing of growth or membership/participation drop off. Why IAC would risk being lumped into the last grouping makes no sense to me.
~Lace~
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Kevin White
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11/15/2008 8:01:31 PM
A spider, Jesse, is a web crawler ... hence it's name.
It seeks out and reports information.
The surprise of the day is that Fly is Holo.
Go ahead, deny and protest, but I'm impressed. You are an artist.
Best,
Kev-
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Jesse Adams
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11/15/2008 8:06:40 PM
Fly is Holo? Holo is Fly? Flolo?
I think this is where I say, "Oh Snap!"
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the perfect banana
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11/15/2008 8:12:56 PM
I think you and others totally overstate your case, Lace. Seriously if you think there's some kind of heavy flamework going on here on the pipeline, you really need a lot thicker skin or I suspect that sometime soon, casual conversations on the internet may make you spontaneously combust. :D
As for your comment "if IAC wants to be associated with the quality of such as Cashbox Magazine"
Cashbox Magazine was out of business 2 years ago. It makes me chuckle that you hold them up as some sort of standard above IAC. Why is that, cause they put you on their charts and you didn't make the KIAC Big 50 or something? :D
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fly on the wall
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11/15/2008 8:18:30 PM
C'mon Kevin, Holo is a geek. I'd date his mom though.
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Jesse Adams
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11/15/2008 8:29:00 PM
Is Holo's mom hot?
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Black Velvet Lace
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11/15/2008 8:53:45 PM
"I found Lace's post disingenuous and that's why I responded the way I did."
Well it's not as though your sarcasm went over my head, but I chose to ignore that. But now you say you felt I was disingenuous? Why?
"Why come on here and bitch about why you left?"
Bitch? About why I left? I don't know why responding in brief, in response to this thread that speaks directly to the issue of people (Robbie) reporting that others think less of/are avoiding IAC due to the trolling, is "bitching". And I never said anywhere that I "left". In September I said I was taking a break until the election was over because of the ad hominen that had started in the political posts.
http://iacmusic.com/blog.aspx?ID=60618&TopicID=53221
"I saw her start a hassle with somebody else who is a friend of mine who wasn't even talking to her."
Where did I ever start a "hassle" with anyone at IAC?? Please post it, if I'm in the wrong, I will apologize.
"Does that make her a troll too or is her name really Black Velvet Lace and if it was, would that make it okay?"
Of course my name isn't Black Velvet Lace, Lace is a stage name I've used for 20some years due to the name of a duo I was in; Black Velvet is a signature song I sang for as long as that song's been around.
Fly I've never considered you to be a troll. A character, a humorous character, but since you first arrived, I'd not thought of you as a troll. I don't know what your beef is with me, I don't recall posting much if at all in your threads, but given your obvious anger towards me, it apparently started long before I was aware of it.
~Lace~
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Black Velvet Lace
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11/15/2008 9:05:20 PM
"I think you and others totally overstate your case, Lace."
You've a right to think whatever you want Banana.
"Cashbox Magazine was out of business 2 years ago. It makes me chuckle that you hold them up as some sort of standard above IAC. Why is that, cause they put you on their charts and you didn't make the KIAC Big 50 or something? :D"
Cashbox isn't out of business, and I didn't put Cashbox above IAC, you just did. I was #1 on both IAC and Cashbox charts.
~Lace~
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fly on the wall
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11/15/2008 9:11:47 PM
I don't have any particular beef with you. I just thought somebody should respond to this.
"so this relatively new artist decided to do other things with my time than post much here anymore."
Why if you are doing other things than post much here would this be where you choose to post? Seemed odd you'd jump into this very fray if you're wanting nice posts about music.
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Jesse Adams
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11/15/2008 9:14:24 PM
---- Updated 11/15/2008 9:16:43 PM
I've got it! The perfect grape, cherry, banana and fly are ALL the same person!
Am I right?
BTW according to this blogs definition of a Troll, well shit that's like 30% of the human population. There's always gonna be sucky people no matter where you go and what you're doing.
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Black Velvet Lace
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11/15/2008 9:28:23 PM
"I don't have any particular beef with you. I just thought somebody should respond to this. "
That's kind of hard to believe when you've accused me of "bitching", being "disingenuous", and somewhere "hassling a friend of yours". But all-in-all I'd just as soon drop it and let it go.
"Why if you are doing other things than post much here would this be where you choose to post? Seemed odd you'd jump into this very fray if you're wanting nice posts about music."
To validate Robbie, I experienced what he describes and I think he's right.
~Lace~
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Jesse Adams
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11/15/2008 9:50:54 PM
What a minute I think I just figured out who the "Trolls" are... because if you guys notice, they suddenly haven't been around for the past week or two, it's like they vanished. Oh you know, the same group of 5 or 6 people with the similar looking pics like they were all shot from the same camera... they were kind of html happy, would post several times on your page, all within a few minutes of each other... and they were seemingly EVERYWHERE.
Am I on to anything here?
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LyinDan
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11/15/2008 10:29:01 PM
This thread makes me laugh. No offense to anyone.
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Jesse Adams
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11/15/2008 10:38:20 PM
I think it was Lyin' Dan with the candlestick in the library.
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the perfect banana
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11/15/2008 11:30:15 PM
As I said, Cashbox wasn't even in operation 2 years ago.
Lace if you've been on the circuit for over 20 years, how come all you have is one cover song on your page? :D
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Black Velvet Lace
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11/16/2008 11:06:55 AM
Ah, Banana, you are apparently too young to remember when Cashbox charts were *king*, I personally believe that either as an associate of IAC or independently, Cashbox has the potential to rival RS and Billboard once again.
As for your sarcasm which is duly noted, and as with Fly duly ignored, I have not one, but two *cover songs* on my page. ;)
~Lace~
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Troll
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11/16/2008 11:16:25 AM
Hey Everyone!
Try and guess who I am!
The first 5 people who guess who I am, get a special place on my radio station.
Keep fighting! I love it! Hugs and kisses, your friendly iac troll
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Black Velvet Lace
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11/16/2008 11:24:31 AM
"Hey Everyone! Try and guess who I am!"
I've no clue who you are Troll, but I love your purple hair.....
:D
~Lace~
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Troll
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11/16/2008 11:46:25 AM
Thanks Lacy, for liking my hair.
But, C'mon you can do better than that!
This is a psychic test, a test of intuition...........Close your eyes and feel my energy...........who am I?
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RedRobin
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11/16/2008 11:57:46 AM
....
My guess is that Troll is another ID for Fly - His words have a similar eloquence and wit.
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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11/16/2008 12:29:37 PM
Phew ewe finally made it!!
Damn ewe are cute--- (just like Debs said)
Dan --I am glad ewe are amused------look i could be as negative as any here
-------and (dare I brag ) much more amusing while i pick on my chosen target !!!
But----as Jesse said there's plenty of that shit in my real life---so why?
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Troll
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11/16/2008 1:06:17 PM
Well thank you Red Robin........for the compliment. Eloquent wit like "Fly".......my mentor, perhaps, but not I.....and so no radio add for you today. I am not the Fly! But hey Fly, you just got a compliment from Red Robin.
And thank you Rob, "cute..... like Debbie said?" If Debbie said it, it must be so!
Guess again! (am I annoying you yet?)
C'mon guys.........get fighting again. I'm getting bored!! Don't you have someone you can gang up on??? (not me though please)
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Black Velvet Lace
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11/16/2008 1:21:48 PM
---- Updated 11/16/2008 1:22:58 PM
"Thanks Lacy, for liking my hair. But, C'mon you can do better than that! This is a psychic test, a test of intuition...........Close your eyes and feel my nergy...........who am I?"
::Wraps tin foil around head and eyes.. attaches straws sticking up like antennae.. adds cork to the tips.. concentrates.. concentrates.. concentrates.. mouth drops open.. tears off tin foil::
ROBBIE!
or
JESSE!
:D
xox
~Lace~
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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11/16/2008 1:28:51 PM
Not I -----nor Fly I think!
mmmmmmm Jesse ?
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Black Velvet Lace
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11/16/2008 1:30:22 PM
::Quickly erases Robbie's name from the list.. and add's Sams.. and Deb's and Colins::
:D
~Lace~
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Troll
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11/16/2008 2:08:02 PM
Nope nope nope!!! One name at a time now Lacy.......... :-) Close your eyes................and you will see me with your inner eye. Who am Eye?
Oh drat! The gremlins are taking over the bridge. I'll be right back.
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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11/16/2008 2:10:44 PM
tis SAM!
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Black Velvet Lace
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11/16/2008 2:13:37 PM
::Replaces tin foil.. turns corks to fine tune reception.. while empathically gathering info from the 20 questions thread::
~Lace~
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Troll
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11/16/2008 2:19:38 PM
Now now now........Sam could never be a mean old troll like moi!
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Jesse Adams
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11/16/2008 4:46:08 PM
It's not me.
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fly on the wall
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11/16/2008 5:17:32 PM
My guess is it's Debbie.
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Black Velvet Lace
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11/16/2008 5:48:38 PM
Troll denies being Debbie Fly...
::still tuned in but the station may have changed::
:D
~Lace~
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Art Factory
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11/17/2008 9:34:39 AM
hey Lace, what are you thoughts on WWJD? I know interpretations differ but I value all of your insights.
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Tony Vani and Debbie Hoskin
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11/17/2008 4:29:34 PM
I feel so free! I no longer have to lie! It's over..........
It's me, Deb! I confess!
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Troll
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11/17/2008 4:31:43 PM
I feel so free! I no longer have to lie! It's over..........
It's me, Deb! I confess!
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Black Velvet Lace
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11/18/2008 11:29:16 PM
Art, WWJD.. about what? :P
DEB IS IT REALLY YOU???
You're too cute.
And I still love your purple hair.
:D
xox
~Lace~
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