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the perfect banana
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the perfect banana

5/28/2009 10:12:09 PM

All this fuss about gay marriage
Some lady reporter got taken away by secret service today trying to deliver personally a letter about preserving traditional marriage.

I say the gays and the straights are all nuts. Marriage is a stupid concept anyway.


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Bob Elliott

5/28/2009 11:12:20 PM


I think whether someone is religious or whatever their deal is, the fact that they have concern over what other people are doing in their lives, concern to the point where they need to prevent it...it shows something is clearly lacking in their lives, in themselves.

There's nothing in the New Testament that says a person should spend any energy preventing anyone else from whatever "sin" they intend. DOn't they suppose God could handle all that if he wants?

Yet many religious are very obsessed with what others are doing. They should have their plates full tuning into their own selves.


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Jesse Adams

5/29/2009 1:59:22 AM


I agree 100% banana, marriage is mos def an unnecessary thing IMO.

If gay people wanna get married, let 'em! They have just as much a right to be as miserable as straight couples!

bada bing!


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The Last Unicorn

5/29/2009 2:29:14 AM


In this mythical creatures opinion, there is a belief the definition of marriage is unparalleled with fundamentalists views to that of the liberated partnership. Ultimately whoever truly values the sacred nature of the individual and the foundation of respect and integrity in honoring one another is far and above a religious law or interpretation of defining what is an original sin. Could it be an accumulated result of over-sensationalized views largely based on a patriarchal system is still defining the modern concept and definition of what marriage is in today's society?

Simply said, some today are looking past the notions of what has been far too long a legacy of oppression and the deemed appropriate role of either gender within some defined relationship. Generally I'd like to think it's nobody's business but the individuals to live lives as they desire.. Now, there's a concept so often overlooked or understood..!


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AnigmaS

5/29/2009 2:39:04 AM


I'm tired of seeing these gays getting a free ride
They should have to get married and deal with the consequences, just like the rest of us do..

And I say they shouldn't be able to use it as an excuse to get out of having to have a church wedding either!

It's time these same sexed bastards learned that life isn't all Bette Middler albums, and Cher tickets.


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The Last Unicorn

5/29/2009 3:11:26 AM


True happiness is finding someone same sexed but not necessarily of the same sex. I support people's rights to choose and to be happy.. just don't make me watch a bad impersonation or misrepresentation of damn it!


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jingo (what remains)

5/29/2009 4:03:44 AM


I know a lot of people who "are gay" but I really only "know" one gay man. He is in a long term relationship with a man he considers to be his spouse - something that is not recognized by the state we live in. His partner has a medical condition that, if they were married, would provide some assistance / protections by the federal government.

I don't care what your views may be about same sex couples, but I think that you would agree that all US citizens should be be able to expect equal treatment under the law. No doubt, that doesn't always happen - but it is unsettling to have a certain group SINGLED OUT, they will get no such equal treatment under the law BECAUSE OF THE LAW.

I have had the "gay marriage" discussion with him many times - mostly from the "gay divorce" perspective. You want to claim some dude as your partner, fine - but when it doesn't work out, give him half of your stuff. Sell the loft, work out custody of the cat, whatever. You can't have it both ways.He will admit that this concept scares him. He is gay, not dishonest - he wants to keep his stuff. Can't have it both ways (unless you are bi - he is just gay).

I think we need some sort of "unity" document that says that any two people can team up - different sex, same sex, never gonna have sex, have sex night and day - doesn't matter. A binding business contract, recognized at the local and federal level that has nothing to do with sex or religion. A person you can designate as your partner / caregiver / gets your stuff when you snuff it. Has nothing to do with love/sex - a strict business deal. I think any laws should pertain to such "partners" whether any kind of "marriage" is involved or not.


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Stephen John

5/29/2009 5:35:09 AM


I have a lot I'd like to add to this.... but I'd start with this. One of the reasons the world is so lawless now (not that there wasn't lawlessness before) is because we all want to do what we feel is right to us. What makes us happy and what makes us feel good.

We have rules and laws for a reason not to stop someone from having fun or feeling good or being happy. But to ensure that our activities result in a greater good for everyone. Whether we like it or not we tell each other how to behave every single day. We have traffic light to dictate how we should behave on the road and when we break those rules we pay the consequence either through and accident or a ticket or arrest. We tell our children how to behave at home so that there will be order and peace in the home.

Your very own US president Bill Clinton had to leave office because of his behaviour. So why do we behave as if we don't tell people what to do in their private space. What we do in our private space will play out in public and affect all those around us either positively or negatively.

The greater good of all is what is at stake. If you all do what is right to us then there is no Law no order no peace because we all become a law unto ourselves.

Will say more later


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The Man With No Band

5/29/2009 5:45:19 AM


There is a big difference between laws born to regulate traffic for everyone's safety and laws born out of prejudice and moral judgements ... It has nothing to do with "what we feel is right to us"


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the perfect banana

5/29/2009 5:55:41 AM


I agree that gays should be able to marry but why would anyone want to?


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The Man With No Band

5/29/2009 6:01:35 AM


Well Banana ... I'm not sure either ... I don't understand why anyone eats broccoli either ... some things are meant to remain a mystery to us ...

BTW ... if I was told I had a choice between marrying a man ... or having to marry my first wife again ... You could just call me the gay guy ... :)


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The Last Unicorn

5/29/2009 6:45:06 AM


True, no group should be singled out and all should be viewed equally and responsibly under law in their individual right to life. I see that as a separate issue, irrespective of marriage or partnership. A marriage or binding legal partnership defines the relationship however marriage is bound by state laws which have their own standards in interpreting / defining the law. For that reason a partnership as determined by two people in defining their legal rights is a good idea as it is irrespective of these predefined state laws on marriage. Why do people want to get married Banana? Probably comes down to a solid commitment for each other, maybe because they thought it was the right thing to do at the time, or it was inherent in their upbringing or custom, or simply because they did not know better. :-D


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The Man With No Band

5/29/2009 7:14:15 AM


Stephen ... not to knock your words ... but things must be very different in Trinidad than here in the U.S. ....

"We have rules and laws for a reason not to stop someone from having fun or feeling good or being happy. But to ensure that our activities result in a greater good for everyone."

That is simply not only not true here, but about as far off the mark as one can get ...

In the first place ... we have more laws than any other country in the world ... Laws do not stop criminals and often make criminals out of good honest people here ...

Laws are not made "for the good of everyone" in this country and I doubt anywhere else either ... Laws are made for a few "other" reasons ... to pad pockets, to pacify a certain group of people, or they are made on payoffs to dirty politicians from greedy corporations ... or as a trade off

I am considered a criminal in this country ...
I have never hurt anyone, or would never purposely do so ....
I raised four kids of my own and one foster kid and helped many others ...
I worked nearly EVERY day for thirty years ...
Paid my taxes ... Gave heavily to charity ...
I have helped countless people in times of their need ...
I do not incite riots or cause all out mayhem ...
I have taken blows to protect women and children ...
I would gladly take a bullet for a stranger ....

But none the less ... I am a criminal ... I smoke weed (something that hurts NO ONE ) ... but ...
The policemen (that probably beat their wives) arrest me ...
The jailor (who is probably embezzling funds) treats me like crap ...
The Lawyer (who is probably cheating on his wife and his taxes) takes my money and represents me poorly ...
The Prosecutor (Who probably watches child pornography) makes me look like public enemy number one ...

The Judge (who probably drinks a fifth of whiskey every day and undoubtedly drives drunk) sentences me to prison ....

The Prison Guards (who are taking bribes and smuggling drugs into the prison) beat me and have more time added to my sentence by calling me unruly ...

The Parole Board ( which is made up of people who have never done an honest days work in their lives) make me sweat, then turn down my first parole, do to my bad behavior in prison ...

... and then when I finally make it out, I have a record and am persecuted and unable to find a job ...


Now ... tell me again how laws are a good thing ?



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Stephen John

5/29/2009 1:50:20 PM


Hey Man with No Band re: your first post. I'm glad we agree that traffic laws are different. However, we all have internal traffic light and laws called conscience. This tells us this is right or wrong or harmful to everyone. Laws came about because some of us have silenced our conscience. That's why we jail rapists (whether they did it to a male or a female) and that's why the guy who locked away his daughter and father seven children with her was jailed. You can argue that it was in his own private space and it wasn't hurting anyone BUT IT DID. The law is for the lawless those of us whose sense of conscience.

Re: your second post:
I have my personal views about marijuana and why most countries have made it illegal. But, because those who are charged with the responsibility to enforce the law are themselves lawless doesn't make the law wrong or bad. It has to do with the character of the person. We have the same problem here in Trinidad too Policemen who beat their wives and Lawyers who steal etc etc. It's like saying that the President or Prime Minister broke the law and murdered that that frees us to do other things that are against the law or that the law against murder is stupid and wrong.

I'll continue later as I have to head out now.


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Hop On Pop

5/29/2009 1:59:00 PM ---- Updated 5/29/2009 2:03:51 PM


H.D. Thoreau spoke of "Laws of Expedience", which are, indeed, a good (and necessary) thing to maintain public order. These include such things as:
• Traffic laws (which keep us safe)
• Tax laws (which keep government running)
• Laws against theft
• Laws against harming other humans
• Laws against destruction of property

All of these laws make sense and protect us in some way or another.

Outlawing gay marriage protects nobody, and harms many. It would also be the first law designed to TAKE AWAY rights, as opposed to impart them.

You may claim that homosexuality is morally wrong, and so it would protect us (and society) to outlaw such unions.

I say "whose morality".
You would say, "God's word."
I say, "Whose God?"
You say, "GOD! The Bible!"
I say, that it's not only YOUR Bible (as others believe in other Holy Books), but it is also only YOUR INTERPRETATION of that Holy Book.

I believe in the message of the Bible and Jesus' message (even though I do not consider myself a Christian), and I would not want to live in a world without Jesus' message.

And, didn't Jesus welcome ALL to his table?
Without judgement?

So, if He did not pass judgement, who are we to judge?
And, if He gave all of himself, who are we to take anything away?

God created all and loves us all.
We should extend the same courtesy.

(Sorry for preaching, I just get sick of hypocracy.)

And, I must state also, that I have no intention of offending anybody here. I understand that we all have our beliefs, and I respect that. I love you all, as brothers and sisters and can respect your beliefs.

I just urge you all not to let those beliefs get in the way of your love for our brothers and sisters. If you feel that homosexuality is a choice (which I do not believe that it is), please respect that choice and let God deal with them as (s)he sees fit. God gave them that choice, if that is the case, do not take it away.

More rambling thoughts:
IF homosexuality is a choice, WHY would anyone choose a lifestyle that ostracizes them from many of the general public and, yes, even makes them a target?

Sorry for the ramble.
Much love to you all.


PS - For those who did not know, I am a straight, white man, living in the U.S.


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The Man With No Band

5/29/2009 4:12:15 PM ---- Updated 5/29/2009 4:52:36 PM


Stephen ... please call me Sam ... it is shorter and easier to type ... :)

Back to my two posts and your rebuttal ...

Point one ...
"we all have internal traffic light and laws called conscience. This tells us this is right or wrong or harmful to everyone."
Absolutely ... but everyone has a different level of conscience ... and conscience can actually be swayed by what one is taught, and cloud the true conscience ...

Example ... years ago I used to think being Gay was wrong and anyone who was was sick ... I thought it was my "conscience" telling me so ... WRONG ... it was not my conscience at all, it was a belief that had been driven into my system from false preachings ... Everyone I was around told me this behavior was wrong, so much so that I believed it was my conscience telling me so ... My true conscience finally woke up one day and said .. "Who am I to judge" and I got educated and learned that what I had been taught all along was wrong ...

"Laws came about because some of us have silenced our conscience."
This is not true ... laws came about from authoritative men to make the people do their bidding.

As Todd pointed out ...
"Thoreau spoke of "Laws of Expedience", which are, indeed, a good (and necessary) thing to maintain public order. These include such things as:
• Traffic laws (which keep us safe)
• Tax laws (which keep government running)
• Laws against theft
• Laws against harming other humans
• Laws against destruction of property"
These all fall under laws of "conscience" ... These are what law is designed for ...

and all fall under your definition, "We have rules and laws for a reason not to stop someone from having fun or feeling good or being happy. But to ensure that our activities result in a greater good for everyone."

Laws banning two people who love each other from getting married do not fall under your definition. Banning people from getting married does NOT result in a greater good for everyone.

Take for instance a law we held here for well over a century ... Slavery ... It was a law that one man could own another man ... Are you implying that the reason that law no longer exist is because we have lost our way and have become evil ? ... Quite the contrary, that law was done away with because we have evolved and have become more decent, not less so.

Point two ...

"because those who are charged with the responsibility to enforce the law are themselves lawless doesn't make the law wrong or bad."

Of course not ... that was not my point ... my point was the hypocrisy of laws in this country ... If you have money or power, the laws do not pertain to you ... Why am I looked at like the scum of the earth for smoking Marijuana and yet our last three Presidents were able to reach the highest office in the land all admitted to smoking Marijuana ?
If laws were the answer then Alcohol would surely be illegal ... it has killed millions ... Marijuana has killed no one.

again .... Laws banning two people who love each other from getting married are wrong and serve no purpose except to force the will of the judgmental on others.


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Sly Witt

5/29/2009 6:23:44 PM


just 2 quick things..

Why is it that the folks who are so 'the gays will ruin marriage' are often on their 2nd or 3rd spouse? Wouldn't their time be better spent protesting divorce? Where's that outcry? How in the hell does what someone else does effect MY marriage? Why do I keep misspelling marriage?

..and a point of clarification: Bill Clinton left office because his term was up. It had NOTHING to do with the scandal. A US president is limited to 8 years in office.

Peace


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5/29/2009 7:57:35 PM


My partner Humphrey and i have been together for 5 years now ( i left my wife of 30 years and 3 children for him).
We're both very happy and enjoy carnal pleasure with multiple partners we pick up in various clubs whilst still "coming together" every so often so to speak.
I see no reason for us to marry though.My sincere wish is that fellow lusty IACers like Bluto and Kev White could join us for a weekend of fun.


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Tom O'Brien

5/29/2009 8:49:30 PM


Anyone who has found someone to love in this world is a blessed person. How can you regulate love? There are good and bad relationships on both sides of the fence, so, yeah, marriage is a tricky thing in this day and age.

Blessings to those who find love, with whomever it happens to be!

Judge not, lest ye be judged.


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5/29/2009 11:42:55 PM ---- Updated 5/30/2009 12:14:07 AM


Too right Tom!
I'm so grateful i found love with Humphrey.Love is such a powerful thing,that's a certainty.I fell out of love with my wife June as she got so fat and wrinkly in the later years of our marriage.My heart was always reaching out for the firmer flesh of younger conquests and i realised in the end i had to follow my heart and leave her.
Like you,i refuse to judge those who stay with the same person into old age,when there's far riper fruit there for the plucking. A part of me thinks they are fools for not listening to their hearts though i have to say!


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Kevin White

5/30/2009 1:08:38 AM


Stephen: Just a matter of point ... Bill Clinton served his full term allowed by law in his presidency and left as one of the most fiscally responsible, liberally tolerant presidents the United States has recently had. One might even say that he "rose above the bushes" ... and you can take a multi-level interpretation of that statement ... from presidents that bookended him to women that bookended him. He was never ousted over his personal indiscretions, and even America didn't care all that much ... even if it was sex with that woman ... no matter what the stupid press sold papers with. :^D

Generally: I've two close cousins who have died from AIDS. People sometimes pay for how they live their lives ... in many ways other than being gay ... stupidity probably being the worst amongst any vice one might have. Regardless, I still support anyone who loves another ... for when the heart is in the right place, there is no judgment from outside that can move it.

I don't feel it's necessary to claim my sexuality publicly, particularly here ... I know who I love and have been with for 30+ years ... and that's all anyone else needs to know.

Schmooze: Your naming your gay love "HUMPhrey" was unintended ... or perhaps even intended, sheer brilliance. It made me laugh for two minutes. I had to wipe tears from my eyes.

Best,

Kev-


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Richard Scotti

5/30/2009 2:18:36 AM ---- Updated 5/30/2009 2:32:08 AM


Besides the fact that people might want to get married because they love each other, there are many benefits bestowed by law on both spouses which they wouldn't have if they weren't legally married. Recently there was a case where a gay woman was not allowed to visit her long time partner who was dying of cancer in the hospital. Their adopted 4 children were not allowed to visit as well. The dying woman begged not to be left to die alone but the hospital said it was just following state law.
Only after her death was the family allowed to see her as she was receiving last rites. That's one of the many reasons heterosexuals as well as homosexuals get married. Even so - called "civil unions" do not carry all the rights that legal marriage brings.


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5/30/2009 2:25:44 AM


Uncle Schmooze, did you really find love with Humphrey ? :)




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Stephen John

5/30/2009 3:40:00 AM


Hey Todd, just to let you know I love a good debate about many topics and always do so with love and peace so nothing to apologise for.

Now to your comments:

Let deal with what we agree with (always good to start on common ground)
1. We need Laws, I think we agree on that
2. We need Love, I think we agree here. Point to note love is not sex, but encompasses sex. Love doesn't mean allowing you to do everything you want or makes you feel good.
3. We need some form of moral teaching. I think we agree here.

Now until you brought it up no one else before did. Nobody mentioned Jesus or God or the Bible or Mohammed or anything thing but since you did please allow me to dive in.

Christ did welcome all to his table ( we agree on that) but he never left them the same way unless they "chose to" which is there God given right. According to the bible he left the blind with sight he left the lame able to walk and most interestingly he left the prostitute with a high self esteem. He did judge he asked "he who is without sin cast the first stone" no of us are so he made a judgment that the "religious" fanatics didn't like because it showed them up. Now when I say religious I don't mean someone who is in a particular religion it's someone who is so fixed or "rules' that instead of using those rules to help they use them to keep others down.

Christ also told the religious leaders of the day that their mouths are "open graves'. And yes he did judge regular folks too. He told a lady that she had five husbands (sleeping around in our modern terms) and the one she was with was not hers but he didn't leave her in that condition he transformed her life. He told the prostitute go "sin" no more. No why would he say that if she was not doing something wrong?

Whatever he did he did in "love". I can love you as a friend (without sexual feelings) as a parent (no sexual feelings), a sibling (no sexual feelings) or as a lovers with sexual feelings. You can judge as Christ did to build you up and change your life, Judging doesn't mean disrespect.

He gave his all (We agree on this). I you accept Christ and his teachings then how do you not accept the law he said he came to fulfill which says that sexual relations of the same gender is not acceptable? All Christ did was move the law from paper to hearts. he said if you think it in your heart you've already committed the act.

Will say more later as I want to respond to Sam


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Stephen John

5/30/2009 4:00:57 AM


Ok no prob Sam it is. Sam let start with the common ground some laws are stupid (I agree) in the sense that the purpose for which they were created is solved. For example here in Trinidad if you get married after six Pm it's unlawful stupid right, I agree. That law was formed when there were no street lights and you needed to do things before dark and it should be changed. Slavery is wrong because no human being has the right to own another, slavery (which is centuries old even before the african slave trade) was a way for one particular shade of people to enrich themselves and their countries and I believe that they eased their "conscience" about the issue by twisting a belief system to suit their needs. But as I said before that is and indictment against them and their character and not the belief which they twisted.

Laws came about but men doing their bidding. I don't think I agree here. I think by observing nature we can see laws at work. The law of gravity, the law of sowing and reaping, the law of opposites attract etc etc. This universe would fall apart without laws to regulate it. Some of these laws affect our everyday life directly others indirectly. By observing these things we would recognise that laws are necessary foe thing to function smoothly.

I you have money or power laws don't apply.... Well we have those problem here too. People who can pay the best lawyer and all that crap so we agree on that doesn't mean the law doesn't pertain to them they just breaking the law multiple times.

Re: the marijuana thing as I said I have my personal views about it. I'll just state one point here. I believe that if most governments could find a way to effectively tax marijuana production it would no longer be illegal.


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Stephen John

5/30/2009 4:09:51 AM


I think I should state this I agree we are all free to choose whatever we want to do and to believe. I also believe that we are wholly responsible for the consequences of those choices and should blame anyone whether mother, father, brother, God or whoever.

I also believe that we are responsible for what we create. I do believe that love is a WONDERFUL thing but there is a lot of confusion about it.

I believe that every belief system have some tenets that they all agree on Praying ( which develops your spirit), Fasting (for the spirit as well), and Alms (giving to help others) most of them have moral codes they agree on in terms of how families relate how society relates etc.

Will say more as others respond.


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The Last Unicorn

5/30/2009 4:38:25 AM ---- Updated 5/30/2009 5:25:30 AM


Having consorted with the ancients I believe that's true Stephen, he wanted people to make their own choices with consequences of course to the law of life. He would not subscribe to taking away free will , as that is not part of God's law in the non doctrinal view, just as you've also said there are universal laws. I believe he said go sin no more because under the law at the time she would have been killed, so he mediated with a warning. There maybe something more to that, in that if you continually make decisions which are out of integrity to others and with life, there will be greater consequence same idea as karma, this is universal law.

Stephen, it's possible the teaching you know of was not actually given by him. It's true his teachings were edited due to Constantine, not purely because he was a Pagan as there was a threat of the popularity of his teachings, which if really understood would have lead people to live in true compassion.. instead doctrine was established some of which enforced fear, even of God 'Himself' which was, as with most 'religions' defined by 'man'. God is the definer not the defined.. so as we were also given co-creative rights.

K- everyone is free to believe and choose with free will... religion or non, all roads eventually lead back home. Yet another definition for only you to make or know for yourself. edit to kev again yes, truth is your truth, as is belief based in large by your own unique experiences in life.


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Kevin White

5/30/2009 4:38:28 AM ---- Updated 5/30/2009 5:20:00 AM


I'll take this just a little deeper in thought, oh mystical horned one ...

Couple things actually, S.

Christ's "intentions" are actually "wild assumptions" unless you knew him personally ... so though you think anyone can "know" ... no one actually "knows" ... and Todd, what religion were you raised in? Did you "know" Christ?

I know you're trying to be fair in your beliefs. Just realize that your beliefs are yours to your belief system, and represent only belief, not truth.

For truer definition about yourself, please see my thread on morals ... for therein lies the singular human definition of living. Religions are merely the artificial construct that manifests from the disquiet of living amongst each other. Religion provided the original explanation of the natural world, then scientific knowledge triumphed over it. I know what thunder is.

Humanity has moved beyond the need for such explanations of living. Yet some need "rulebooks" and seek common ground, whereas common ground isn't quite as common as any might want to assume. We're all very different, and that's just fine.

Accordingly, there are other belief systems, as valid, as believed, in the world, and Christ has nothing to do with it. In mine, I share nothing in common w/ your stated tenets.

Others may quite differ from your belief system, yet they are equal to your belief system. For it's all belief.





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LyinDan

5/30/2009 4:26:37 PM


All this talk about knowing Christ sounds really icky to me. We all know what the Bible meant when it talked about so and so "knowing" so and so.

On another note, or maybe the same one, I think I know what each of you means when you talk of what you know you know. It's pretty much down to some mighty unchangeable basic assumptions, defended by selective quotes from authorities you know, even if you know what you know is from the authority you best know - yourself. You know.


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The Last Unicorn

5/30/2009 9:13:37 PM ---- Updated 5/30/2009 9:27:40 PM


This is an awesome video for content, inspired by this topic and the movie Gloria with hugs from TFB. Here's a rather long 45:55 hug if interested in gaining further insight/education/knowledge in relation to equality, and changes in our patriarchal system as relevant to a speech given at Tulane University over a year ago. I support these viewpoints in ethics as a heterosexual of liberal human rights. This reflects societal shifting in defining marriage, and that of the liberated partnership which is also a wonderful advance to the heterosexual relationship in these modern days.


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Kevin White

5/31/2009 3:13:36 AM


I hate it when icons grow old. I love it when they still count.


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The Last Unicorn

5/31/2009 5:30:32 PM


40:32 makes me smile .~))


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Beth Fridinger

6/6/2009 7:06:21 PM


Wow...well the laws on pot are ridiculous....


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Beth Fridinger

6/6/2009 7:07:30 PM


Gays should have the right like anyone else. Some people are happily married...but so many are not....LOL


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Tony Vani and Debbie Hoskin

6/6/2009 10:40:31 PM


Whether or not marriage is a stupid concept has nothing to do with it. All people should have equal rights to choose, albeit stupid choices or whatever.


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