| | | |
.jpg)
Holo Lukaloa
|
8/1/2008 12:29:10 AM
---- Updated 8/1/2008 12:39:02 AM
How the best presidential candidate in our generation may lose.
This is a different election. It's the first truly charismatic candidate we've had during the era of the 24/7 news cycle. It's obvious what has happened. The media and many people both in the US and other countries are fascinated, bordering obsessed with Barack Obama. He is generating news and interest which just dwarfs the other candidate. The amount of scrutiny is overwhelming for him, but perhaps the most shocking part is that the main question/referendum is no longer even Republican vs Democrat. It's totally turned into Obama, yes or no. Notice how few people here, there, anywhere are even trying to say that McCain is winning the issues. Few people will even admit they're voting for McCain. In fact, most of them aren't, they're voting against Obama. Everywhere you turn there is some ridiculous rumor or distortion. People who don't care a lick about McCain or what he stands for (if anything) are consumed with this election because they grasp so tightly to any kind of rationale they can find to dismiss Obama. Now he's too much of a rockstar, assuming that silly ad actually worked. I'm quite sure that many who are insecure about their intelligence actually don't want to see an obviously brilliant guy in power. There is a comfort level Americans in the vast countryside feel towards doltish individuals like Bush and McCain. They hate Obama like they hated the valedictorian of their high school. They hate that he gets so much attention. Some guy here on the pipeline seems to just hate that people believe in him. Would it be better to have an election where neither of the candidates excited anyone? For some, yes.
Many blame the press. But McCain is boring and all his talking points like more drilling and the gas tax and "winning the war" are completely out of touch or invalid or both and most intelligent people know this.
I believe the forces of jealousy, insecurity and racism are going to just pile up and McCain could win. More haters may show up to vote against Obama than will show up to vote for him.
Probably 80% of the votes cast will be ABOUT Obama though. Most of the people who aren't going to vote for him have some kneejerk reason. They think Reverend Wright is going to be named Secretary of Education, perhaps. Whatever their problem with Barack Obama is, it's personal.
|
|
srm
|
8/1/2008 1:50:56 AM
"It's obvious what has happened. The media and many people both in the US and other countries are fascinated, bordering obsessed with Barack Obama."
Yeah, that 'obsession' business has gotten pretty annoying.
|
|
Conversation Suicide
|
8/1/2008 2:24:35 AM
---- Updated 8/1/2008 2:31:21 AM
You should, like, pretty much stop being a creative-type, Holo; and just fight to become Obama's Publicist/Lover.
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
8/1/2008 3:59:19 AM
Thanks for the really weak responses.
|
|
qelizabeth
|
8/1/2008 4:11:24 AM
I totally agree that the obsession thing is effing annoying, and as one of the most critical people on the planet, and an unpopular kid, popularity is not something that will win my vote.
My brother in law is in Iraq. I know freedom isn't cheap, but this war isn't making us more free, it's making us more poor and vulnerable. We've lost over 4,000 of our brave children.
I was an economics major in college and the economy is a big issue for me.
I am really angry that our economy has gone to pot, our dollar is worth practically half of what it was before the war. Every day we're pouring gazzillions into it. It drives me bonkers. Our savings, if we haven't dipped into them already to fill our tanks, are worth less and less. And of course it pisses me off that other countries are buying up our skyscrapers.
That's why I'm giving Obama a chance.
Who knows if he'll fix it, but I agree much more with what's come out of his mouth about the war and the economy than any other candidate.
I think we should stop talking about the phenomena and start talking about the issues, if anything. Voting records. Blue prints. Brick and mortar. Not speculation by the Main Stream Media. I don't care about them. They just want ratings and to make money from advertising money. I resent that the cable network news stations are using and manipulating me for their profit. Forget it -- I'm not playing that game.
The news stations are the most anti-American ever. They try to separate us, on stupid 'news' issues. The latest: Should Obama speak to 75,000 people? Is it too big a crowd? PLEASE.This is not news. This is a waste of time.
We're ALL Americans and we are all pretty much good, generous, caring people who want the best for our children, our property, and our investments. And we love our country.
|
|
Nerol
|
8/1/2008 4:31:20 AM
"The media and many people both in the US and other countries are fascinated, bordering obsessed with Barack Obama."
Thou speak with a broad brush. Not all of us are obsessed with BO.
I consider a vote a solemnly important thing and never voted to be part of a bandwagon. I look at what a candidate says and what he does. If they match, then I'll at least say he/she is genuine and honest. So far BO fails that test if you objectively look at his words vs his votes on FISA and Patriot Act.
Not that I expect that you've actually delved into this with serious objectivity.
But I digress. So, when I vote "for" Nader, I'll be voting for Nader, not against Obama.
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
8/1/2008 4:53:57 AM
I said many people, not all people.
I don't doubt you believe Nader is a better candidate after considering all the issues. My qualm with you is that your vote may help McCain win and I think there must be some part of you that finds some gravity in that.
|
|
srm
|
8/1/2008 5:11:31 AM
"Thanks for the really weak responses."
No problem. It's a really weak post.
|
|
Nerol
|
8/1/2008 5:19:06 AM
"I don't doubt you believe Nader is a better candidate after considering all the issues. My qualm with you is that your vote may help McCain win and I think there must be some part of you that finds some gravity in that."
If I believe in what Nader stands for, how could I possibly want McCain to win? That doesn't make sense.
Hey, I'm voting for someone, not against. That's a good thing.
As for third parties, examine politics throughout history and you'll see that major things we take for granted like abolition of slavery and women's suffrage came to be because third parties kept them simmering until they came to the forefront.
Should they have been told they were stupidly wasting their votes too?
|
|
Nerol
|
8/1/2008 5:20:24 AM
And truthfully, about the only person I know of who I could say is "obsessed" with Obama is you!
|
|
The CODE
|
8/1/2008 5:40:19 AM
Well said Quelizabeth!
It's the issues NOT the Persona!
Make change happen USA!!!
|
|
Conversation Suicide
|
8/1/2008 6:05:11 AM
s'gonna be a LONG haul on that one-- i.e. for REAL change to happen. That's why we're exiting this crazy USA, to enter THE CODE's world, in the UK. Uh... actually England, I think you'ze rockers are in Canada, right?
LOVE your MUSIC by the way! -phlegm
|
|
_______
|
8/1/2008 6:20:13 AM
I hope this isn't a 'weak response' it's a little off topic and maybe as this isn't my Country of origin I should keep out, but I'll dip my toe in the murky waters just this once.
I just watched a preview of the Edinburgh Fringe Festival where they were interviewing several US comedians, and the consensus was that they made a "nice little living" from the faux pas' of Mr Bush (the man who said "The future hadn't happened yet" They all felt that their careers would be over if Mr McCain got in as President. Apart from the French Fries jokes, he provides very little observational material other than being boring. I suppose this is a good thing in a way. The media shouldn't lie or spread lies of course but it's amazing how you can stretch or exaggerate a positive point until it becomes a negative one if you get my gist.
There are some really funny Bushisms on the web, here's one I liked :
"I don't particularly like it when people put words in my mouth, either, by the way, unless I say it." --George W. Bush, Crawford, Texas, Nov. 10, 2007
And talk about stating the bleeping obvious :
"My job is a decision-making job, and as a result, I make a lot of decisions." --George W. Bush, The Decider, Lancaster, Pa., Oct. 3, 2007
Then the honesty :
"I'm going to try to see if I can remember as much to make it sound like I'm smart on the subject." --George W. Bush, answering a question about a possible flu pandemic, Cleveland, July 10, 2007
He was no different to any of us :
"You know, I guess I'm like any other political figure: Everybody wants to be loved." --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., July 12, 2007. or :
"I've got God's shoulder to cry on. And I cry a lot. I do a lot of crying in this job. I'll bet I've shed more tears than you can count, as president." --George W. Bush,
And in summary :
"And I, unfortunately, have been to too many disasters as president." --George W. Washington, D.C., June 17, 2008.
"He really is a one man act on his own" -- Marigold Driver Aug 1st 2008
|
|
satch
|
8/1/2008 6:27:24 AM
"We're ALL Americans and we are all pretty much good, generous, caring people who want the best for our children, our property, and our investments. And we love our country."
We're not all Americans - America is one out of many hundreds of countries that will, whether we like it or not - be affected by the outcome of this election. The best thing that could happen, from the point-of-view of a non-American, would be for an independent candidate to win!
|
|
qelizabeth
|
8/1/2008 7:35:45 AM
I'm talkin' about the electorate, the election.
|
|
satch
|
8/1/2008 8:57:21 AM
Okay - I'll just leave Holo's threads to the Americans... probably best that way, you all just carry on, play nicely with each other now :)
|
|
qelizabeth
|
8/1/2008 9:27:36 AM
I didn't mean your opinion does not matter.
Breaking: Exxon Mobile just reported WINDFALL profits while we're paying over $4/gallon.
What is wrong with this picture?
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
8/1/2008 9:58:19 AM
What's even more wrong with that picture is that McCain has proposed giving them an additional $1.2 billion tax break.
|
|
qelizabeth
|
8/1/2008 11:17:50 AM
To me, these are the important points in discussing the candidates. The FISA blog was useful to me as well.
Keeping away from philosophy, speculation and gossip and sticking to the issues is the only way to make any sense of this election.
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
8/1/2008 11:39:26 AM
---- Updated 8/1/2008 11:41:23 AM
I agree Elizabeth, but it is important to be mindful that BOTH sides distort the issues. It does take a fair amount of critical thinking to wade through the rhetoric. In the end our core belief systems help bring the issues into focus. We are all biased to a degree with our decision making when it comes to Politics. I am as guilty as anyone.
The benefit of a two party system is it keeps everyone in check and forces an acceptance of other views. The framers of our government new this.
Nero, sorry if I left out the third and fourth parties....
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
8/1/2008 11:51:09 AM
Tell us which issues you agree with McCain on.
|
|
qelizabeth
|
8/1/2008 12:09:24 PM
For sure not Health Care.
Not the Economy (everything's the economy but I mean direct blue print for action.)
Not the Iraq War or what he says about Defense in general.
On the other issues.
I need to read up.
This is a very good question Holo because it asks me to look at the issues of both candidates.
I think their respective web sites and voting records are the best sources.
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
8/1/2008 12:19:21 PM
I love how you always assume I am a large McCain Supporter just because I am not sold on your Man.
Here is a big one, I will take a moderate republican over a far left liberal anyday. Just as I will take a moderate liberal over a far right republican. Those are my core beliefs. Would you like to debate the core beliefs of both parties? That would be pointless...there are things I disagree with on the extremes of both sides. You seem to believe it is not possible to be a moderate, placing some sort of weakness on the term. To me a Moderate analyzes all sides and supports the course of action that makes the most logical sense...a moderate does not cow tow to party lines or group think. Obama and Mccain are not far off on many issues..... they can't be, extremes don't get you elected.
Look, I don't hate Obama, nor do I Love McCain....I am equally skeptical of both. Right now both are full of hot air political, "get elected" rhetoric. I am an Income and Property tax paying American citizen with a 20 month old Son. Believe me I am concerned about the future. I am not a hard headed political hack.....no one has all the answers. Our system of government is broken in my opinion. It's very easy to shout "Change" ..Political campaigns have been trumpeting the slogan for over a hundred years. If Obama is elected, I hope he lives up to the ideal many of you are holding...some are going a little over the top. Just a little...
Anyway, I don't want to argue, all I have is personal opinions...that is all anyone has.
|
|
qelizabeth
|
8/1/2008 12:28:31 PM
http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/john_mccain.htm
Above is McCain on the issues.
http://www.ontheissues.org/senate/Barack_Obama.htm
Above is Obama on the issues.
Big, big difference. On that point I half agree. The candidates to pander during election season, you're right, but look at the voting records! Wow. Very different.
I also think it's dangerous to speak in sweeping terms of Far right of moderate left, etc etc. It pigeon holes candidates (the media loves to do this!! f$*k the media!) and borders on gossip in my humble opinion.
It's an innaccurate science to say the least and it plays on that intuitive bias you mentioned before which is helpful but not always the best way to elect someone in absolute terms.
I hope that makes sense. I'm not arguing. Just so you know. I hope I didn't offend. : )
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
8/1/2008 1:00:44 PM
Jeff,
you are stating there are 2 sides and I'm one-sided, I was just wondering if there are any issues you feel McCain has the stronger position on? I'd like to hear that and have a chance to chime in.
Personally I don't think there are any issues where his angle is more enlightened than Obama's but I would be really interested to know if you feel there are any where he has the stronger position.
Let's talk about the issues.
|
|
The Man With No Band
|
8/1/2008 1:18:48 PM
Jeff .... I think most people are a bit cynical of politics ... and they have very good reason to be ... and most, like you, would agree the system is broken ... but that is where I have trouble with most moderates ... they want change but are very much afraid of it ...
Moderates fall in line with the thinking that inexperience is a down fall ... I totally disagree ... If you want experience then you are just going to wind up with the same old broken system that you profess to want to see changed ...
It takes radical beliefs to make anything change ... that's how this country was founded ... if everyone were moderates we'd still be sipping English tea ...
As a matter of fact EVERY good thing I can think of came from Radical beliefs and change ... Rock-N-Roll is one example ...
I look at politics just like life ... if you sit around waiting for things to happen, you are not going to see it ...
Henry Ford was called insane when he put his ideas on the table ... yet he was a total genius of a man, that brought great things to the world ... all because of his radical thinking ...
We went to the moon and now beyond ... all because of radical thinking ...
Columbus sailed off to fall off the edge of the earth ... because of radical thinking ...
The Negroes beat slavery ... because of radical thinking ...
We now have computers and many other things ... because of radical thinking ...
I don't see Obama as "the answer" to it all ... but what I do see is an opportunity to start shifting the tide towards change ... You are definitely not going to get that with McCain ... To me his "Experience" is just what this country doesn't need ... just like it doesn't need Hilliary's "Experience" ...
You say ... To me a Moderate analyzes all sides and supports the course of action that makes the most logical sense...
I say that (logical sense) can only come from what you know by experience ... and that is exactly what keeps things from changing (IMO) ...
Logical sense said Airplanes can't fly ... the world is flat ... an 8-cylinder engine won't work ... Rock-N-Roll will be dead with-in a week ...
I think that anyone (not directed at you) that says they think the system is broken and would like to see things get better, would truly be copping out on their own beliefs if they voted for McCain ... of course anyone who thinks everything is just hunky-dory should vote for him ...
Change has to start somewhere .... and there is never any better time to start it than the here and now ...
I am just appalled when I read about how MOST Americans want off-shore drilling ... how ignorant have we become ... A lot of those supporting this measure are moderates ... and IMO they sure as hell are not using logical thinking ... Logical thinking would say ... hey, let's work together and find an alternative fuel ...
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
8/1/2008 2:23:31 PM
---- Updated 8/1/2008 2:31:32 PM
Holo,
The problem with debating the issues is the Politicians seldom stick to them, and they are severely short sighted campaign phrases. What issues do you want to discuss, the cookie cutter ones placed on each candidates website? As for voting records, those can be very misleading as well...again we are talking about politicians here. The give and take is amazing...a vote here for your issue and you scratch my constituents back, or they vote one way to get it on the record when they know it will not pass...it is quite pathetic. Elizabeth, I will check out that site on the issues, thanks.
Sam,
You are equating a logical thinker with one who does not take action, and that is flat out incorrect. I have taken action my whole life. I set goals, look at the alternative paths to reach them, and choose the most logical, acheivable course of action. I am also not one to equate effectivness with experience, or for that matter equate ineffectivness with a lack of experience. Experience is a relative term, experience in of itself gets you nowhere... I don't hold a lack of experience against Obama any more then I hold a wealth of experience against McCain. None of them has been President of the United states.
I also believe learning from past mistakes is crucial, experience is important...whether it be in Politics, Business, Music, or how you relate to people.
I don't believe anyone should limit themselves to being one sided, often times there are brilliant people on opposite sides of an issue. I refuse to side with one over the other because they are on my team.
I respect your views Sam....
.
|
|
qelizabeth
|
8/1/2008 2:54:58 PM
Jeff I totally agree that choosing a candidate based on voting records and issues is an imperfect science.
I do look at these things.
But beyond that, I ask, who would I prefer to have as my father?
It sound ludicrous, but it works for me.
I want a dad who would get me safely out of a burning house, or emergency situation.
(This relates to National Security)
I want a dad who I can talk to openly.
(This relates to how well the candidate represents the People.)
I want a dad who cares about my generation, and creates a financial security for his children and children's children, etc.
(This relates to The Economy and The Environment.)
I want a dad who is open minded and adaptable.
(A president who uses our resources like the internet and technology.)
Sharp as a whip.
(A president who thinks creatively -- a whipper snapper!)
A dad who has integrity, who's honest, who tries his best.
(Presidential traits hopefully.)
Who loves me for better or worse.
(A president who puts our country first.)
|
|
The Man With No Band
|
8/1/2008 2:58:00 PM
I also respect your views Jeff ...
I set goals, look at the alternative paths to reach them, and choose the most logical, achievable course of action. ... but ...
Steps be damned said Sam ! ... :)
I used to be a goal setter too ... :) ... and experience has taught me a lot too ...
I've set a lot of goals in my life ... and achieved many of them ... only to have everything stripped from me in a moments time ... and it can happen to anyone at any time ... now I have one goal in life ... to be happy, each and every single day no matter what my circumstances are ...
... and I'm not saying it's for everybody but I have achieved more in the little time since I made that decision than I have in my entire lifetime ... and it was so enlightening and such a burden was lifted from my shoulders that I feel that "steps" just hold one back ...
Sam says LEAP !!!!!!!! ... :) .... Very little has ever been lost by avoiding steps ... and the greatest gifts to humanity came from those that said SCREW steps ! .... :)
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
8/1/2008 3:16:34 PM
Good for you Sam, I admire that way of thinking, life is too short!
Unfortunately I have too many responsibilities and people counting on me at the moment. Would love to have a beer with you and say screw it all for a day or two though :)
|
|
The CODE
|
8/1/2008 3:22:39 PM
*****Interjection******
You all seem to be burning a lot of calories on this thread! (LOL!)
Maybe change is closer than we think???
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
8/1/2008 3:25:28 PM
I need to burn calories, I went to Fuddruckers at Lunch. That is a Hamburger joint for those that don't know.... Tasty Burgers! :)~
|
|
Kevin White
|
8/1/2008 3:28:53 PM
---- Updated 8/1/2008 3:31:52 PM
Reading the two on the issues is interesting.
There are certain points I agree with on both sides of the fence.
But that's not what I wanted to add ...
I was talking w/ a Republican lawyer friend the other day, and he's voting for Obama.
"Why's that?", I asked.
His reply was, "Because although John McCain is a Republican, he's a child of the system. Yes, he's a war hero and all that, but he's also child of privilege ... his father being a 4 star Navy Admiral, and chief of all U.S. military operations in Vietnam ...
... and although by all accounts, he's a really nice guy, no one has ever accused him of being the brightest bulb in the pack."
"After four years of sub-par intelligence in the White House, I'm really tired of stupidity on that job."
"Obama, otoh, is just plain smart ... and it's time we had a really intelligent leader leading our country again ... so if anyone's going to get something done to fix the wrongs, it's going to be Obama. McCain just doesn't have the right stuff."
That was a true conversation w/ a Republican lawyer from Massachusetts.
Just sharing a Pete on the Street viewpoint.
Kev-
|
|
The Man With No Band
|
8/1/2008 3:32:35 PM
Would love to have a beer with you and say screw it all for a day or two though :)
Some day I'm gonna make sure that happens my friend ! .... I am looking forward to it as I KNOW I will enjoy that moment ! .... (and we outta start off with a Fuddrucker special !)
|
|
SILVERWOODSTUDIO
|
8/1/2008 3:53:43 PM
America is not the whole world --------------------------------
---but who you put in power will affect the whole world economy!!
---right now, we in other countries are suffering from your choices in the last 2 elections
---we are paying for your mistakes !!
----Bush said he would bring consensus to both sides
---- where the (F**K) is it?????
------it's called "HATE"!!!!
|
|
The CODE
|
8/1/2008 4:04:48 PM
That's what I Hate!
(Standing in a queue!)
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
8/1/2008 4:13:41 PM
"That was a true conversation w/ a Republican lawyer from Massachusetts"
Its all well and good what the Lawyer said, but a Republican from Massachusetts? Now that is a rarity indeed. :)~
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
8/1/2008 4:20:56 PM
---- Updated 8/1/2008 4:24:18 PM
As for the experience issue, and my overall view of politicians I submit the following.
"For many a man sold his soul down the road for ideas of old men, who sit idly by in glowing rooms"
Conscience of a Soldier (Act II) - Jeff Allen Myers
Peace
|
|
The Man With No Band
|
8/1/2008 4:23:50 PM
Notice how Alan Keyes avoided answering the question that was put before him ... Same old politician ... He was asked who Jesus would vote for on the Republican side ... and he dippsy doodled his way around the question and never answered it ....
but of course Obama is the Anti-Christ ... bwahahhahahahahah !!!!!!!!
|
|
qelizabeth
|
8/1/2008 6:11:08 PM
ELECTION PREDICTION:
News of Martians will trump election media coverage!!!!
Woo HOO!!!!
|
|
| |
©2015-16 IndieMusicPeople.com All Rights
Reserved
| |