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Holo Lukaloa
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12/17/2008 3:48:21 AM
Bush and Cheney should go to prison for war crimes. I'm serious. This is necessary to fix what was done.
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Chris Hance
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12/17/2008 5:10:28 AM
And Tory Blair too
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Andy Broad
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12/17/2008 9:21:49 AM
I hate to say but I have to disagree, much though I disagree with war and objected to the invasions of iraq etc, making war is not of itself a war crime.
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Holo Lukaloa
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12/17/2008 10:41:11 AM
You didn't watch the video Andy. This isn't about going to war with Iraq, this is about the acts of torture authorized by Bush and Cheney.
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Andy Broad
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12/17/2008 11:28:32 AM
Actually you're right I didn't watch the video, there is none on my web browser just a blank space. With youtube vids I atleast see where avid should have been and can access it direct from youtube...
Torture is bad, that's for certain though.
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Holo Lukaloa
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12/17/2008 11:33:18 AM
Here it is.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22425001/vp/28269477#28269477
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12/17/2008 12:01:49 PM
water boarding is a form of torture and in law it is regarded as such and people have been prosicuted in the past for commiting it.
Therefore the people who commit it and those who authorise it are subjet to a war crimes tribunal.
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12/17/2008 4:23:03 PM
HL, I think you should go to prison because of how ignorant and stupid you are.
You guys are so whacked!! You defend and stand up for people trying to kill us and stand up for anything that is anti American, anti Christianity! You are so warped and backwards! You do nothing but sling mud on anything American, every chance you get! I'm so sick of this garbage and have endured it for 8 years of nothing but hate mongering all in the name of compassion..... what bovine scatology!!! All you do here is post crap and make character assinations against Bush every chance you get.
Wheres the out rage over the hundreds of thousands that Saddam killed, huh? Where's the out rage over the atrocities in China, huh? You and your posts are a fraud! The truth is you hate Bush and your so called fake evidence is poppy cock!!! Good grief!! GROW UP, PLEASE! GO post your tripe some where else!!!
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LyinDan
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12/17/2008 7:18:13 PM
UniQue Werkx, are you one o them whut is none as a "anon"?
I am gettin purty tired of them anons. You peeple just want to say stupid stuff and get othur peeple all fired up about nuthin. You kin tell them durn anons by the way they just seem to be characatures, you know, all one thing or anuther.
They cum on an say all kindsa dumb things just to get reaktions.
I think you are all the same purson. You need to just quite it.
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12/17/2008 7:52:02 PM
unique said
"You guys are so whacked!! You defend and stand up for people trying to kill us and stand up for anything that is anti American, anti Christianity!"
Where did that come from. There is nothing said in defence of people trying to kill us on this thread nor has anything been said agains't America or Christianity.
Whoever does it, torture is wrong and waterboarding is a form of torture which is recognised as such worldwide. Holo raised the point and gave an opinion and i simply quoted the legality of it.
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never never band
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12/17/2008 7:54:25 PM
Unique Werks, I'm going to ask my poor deluded christian friends to pray for you....as I don't do that sort thing myself.
I think that you are redeemable, that even you could learn that torturing people is evil , against all that it means to be human (not to mention christian) and doesn't work anyway.
The fact that you think Torture is a American Value fits nicely with your weird world of imaginary friends and elastic values.
I'm getting you a spandex bible cover for christmas as well,,, just because it will amuse me even though the humor will doubt escape you.
XOXOXOX
----}-@
P.
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Holo Lukaloa
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12/17/2008 8:51:51 PM
The US supported and Great Britain carried out execution for the crime of waterboarding done by the Japanese after WW2.
The government better pursue this in 2009.
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12/17/2008 11:10:08 PM
---- Updated 12/17/2008 11:10:52 PM
"I'm getting you a spandex bible cover for christmas as well,,, just because it will amuse me even though the humor will doubt escape you.
XOXOXOX
}-@"
Actually you're twisted sense of humor escapes alot of people but I'm glad it's on good terms with yourself, thank the Lord it's not infectious..
I met someone who tortured prisoners btw. He didn't like his job, had nothing personal against any of the prisoners and knew alot of them were innocent but as he said, it was a necessary evil that shortens wars and save the live of Americans as well as their enemy combatants.
I don't like it, I don't endorse it but if we apply the prevelant logic in this thread we might as well count FDR, Truman & Eisenhower among war criminals if we are to convict Bush & Cheney of the same charge.
War is a dirty business and I'm thankful i've never had to be involved in one, I wish everyone was so lucky. But for those who must fight them when they happen, intelligence is going to be gathered by whatever means are available. It happened to John McCain and plenty of other people. No one wants it to happen but nothing will ever stop it from happening.
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The Man With No Band
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12/17/2008 11:22:00 PM
"it was a necessary evil that shortens wars and save the live of Americans as well as their enemy combatants."
B.S. !
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Chris Hance
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12/18/2008 1:36:39 AM
---- Updated 12/18/2008 1:47:22 AM
Thanks Sam,
To all reading, the absolute truth is that GB + USA have lost the war in iraq, thats why we're skint, all that fighting and bombing and hanging of saddam was just a front. A wounded beast thrashing in death throes,
As the unemployment queues and economic reality bites in the next couple of years many more of us will become aware of the great betrayal that has taken place.
We lost the war and even tried to torture victory out of our adversaries.
Glasgow airport has also been used as extraordinary renedition of torture victims has taken place outside countries committed to the Geneva convention of human rights.
The war lie was sold to the british public by decriminalising(to anextent)weed, and having Oasis playing for Tory Blair @ number ten downing street, and also deregulating credit.
I remember playing an anti-war gig back in 2003 just days befoe the invasion of iraq,
I was surprised and saddened by how few of the members of the local music community supported the ant-war stance.
I'm sure I remember that 73% of peeps were pro war at the time,
Anyway since then Tory Blair has become a Roman Catholic,
As if his past will get him into heaven, like !Aye Right! Just like a suicide bomber!
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Andy Broad
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12/18/2008 4:18:11 AM
@Sterling "and knew alot of them were innocent"
Torture of someone you know has intelligence info is abhorent, but torture of some you know is innocent is jaut plain evil, I guess the guy was 'only following orders'.
As to whether Bush et al will be procecuted for war crimes, to be guilty of a war crime you must be on the 'losing side' so it'll never happen. Doesn't means itwrong to highlight the wrong doing of the 'winning side' though.
War and all it's consequqnces is truly abhorent, there are times when it seems unavoidable(iraq was not one of those!) but it's the long sequnce of events that lead up to these wars that need attantion, massive changes in foriegn policy, the way we interact with each other are the only solution.
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12/18/2008 7:23:22 AM
Andy.. The use of torture not only shortened WWII, it may be the primary reason we won it. (Just how sure can anyone be that the person who invented "Enigma" just one day decided to hop on his bike and tell the Allies how it worked???)
So again..., if everyone here is really that serious about their contempt fpr the use of torture then don't forget FDR, Churchill, Eisenhower and every other great leader you hold in such high esteem because they're all just as guilty as Bush.
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The Man With No Band
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12/18/2008 7:55:12 AM
---- Updated 12/18/2008 7:56:02 AM
" The use of torture not only shortened WWII, it may be the primary reason we won it. (Just how sure can anyone be that the person who invented "Enigma" just one day decided to hop on his bike and tell the Allies how it worked???)"
You are so full of it that it stinks clear over here .... ..
Two things "Shortened" WW2 ....
1. Hitler making the mistake of thinking he could whip Russia's ass in the middle of a Russian winter ...
2. The Americans dropping 2 A bombs on Japan that were so powerful, they are still killing people today ...
The "Enigma" was nothing but German code ... that British intelligence, (with the use of Code breakers) figured out ... and while they were sitting around playing ...
... Russsia was simply just kicking Hitlers Generals Asses ...
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12/18/2008 8:24:21 AM
---- Updated 12/18/2008 8:36:45 AM
"The "Enigma" was nothing but German code ... that British intelligence, (with the use of Code breakers) figured out ... and while they were sitting around playing ..."
You don't know what planet you're living on Panick...
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2006/dastych021406.htm
"Enigma should be attributed to the people from three nations: Polish, French and British and to a German traitor, who helped to start the process and paid for it with his life."
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never never band
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12/18/2008 8:39:27 AM
you dont even know who your talking too signor Sterling spientologist.
I haven't addressed you on this thread.
If your gonna try these arguments you might at least pay attention o who you're arguing with.
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The Man With No Band
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12/18/2008 8:40:24 AM
Here ya go moron ...
"The adoption of an encrypting machine called Enigma for the German army's high level communications created a problem for Polish intelligence in decoding intercepted messages. Consequently, in 1932, Poland established a modern cryptology department at the University of Poznan. After a few months the three young Polish mathematicians shown below derived very smart methods and succeeded in breaking the Enigma cipher."
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12/18/2008 8:54:35 AM
My sincerest apology then Panick but I do tend to get complete idiots confused at times, they really are one and the same, identical canned responses, ect ect.
But back to the point well made.. If we are to criticize Bush then why is everyone else being spared???
It's complete hypocrisy. You clowns are grandstanding on an issue that may be correct morally but you conveniently ignore the same conduct by past leaders who are just as if not more guilty.
So in essence you cancel out your own arguments because you're not addressing the entire issue at all. Instead you're ganging up on an unpopular president on an issue you all know full well many. many others are guilty of, So the fact is torture is not a big issue with yourselves at all, it just depends on which person using it that you don't happen to like..
Case closed.
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The Man With No Band
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12/18/2008 9:02:48 AM
You just aren't very smart ..... read the above post dip ....
War Crimes ARE CRIMES ... and those committing them are breaking the LAW ...
No matter who it is ... no one is letting anyone off the hook ... some you mentioned were before the War Crimes Laws were made ... the Others are DEAD ... you can't prosecute dead men ....
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Holo Lukaloa
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12/18/2008 9:07:38 AM
I'd like to see proof about previous admininstrations using torture. If it happened it wasn't in any of our lifetimes.
Larree and Sterling, you are just dead wrong. It is well known now that torture doesn't even work to provide intelligence. It is totally unreliable. I have seen numerous officials who were involved in interrogation for US recently state this case and one of them came out with the detail that indeed tens and thousands of militants we've had to deal with in Iraq only came there because of the recent treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo.
The recent use of torture by America has actually hurt our wartime cause, deeply. Aside from totally degrading our moral status around the world.
“Torture does not work.”
-Porter Goss, former director of the CIA
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The Man With No Band
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12/18/2008 9:20:23 AM
Larree .... you took the quote out of context ... the necessary evil Mr. Bright was talking about was torture ...
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Andy Broad
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12/18/2008 9:22:53 AM
laree:
"The Japanese made us drop the second bomb because they still were too fucking stupid and stubborn to surrender after seeing the results of the first one. Come on. Wake up. "
That's actually not true. The japense were about to surrender, they were just holding for terms rather than unconditional surrender, they would have captiluted very soon as they didn't want to surrender to russians or chinese!
Hiroshima might an act of war but nagasaki was to demonstrate to Russians that "we" could do it again...
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The Man With No Band
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12/18/2008 9:26:28 AM
No Problem ! ... you owe me a bowl ... :)
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12/18/2008 9:39:24 AM
The usa had to force Japan to surrender because the Russians were preparing to invade and had already occupied a few small Japanese islands which they still hold today. The dropping of the nuclear bombs did prevent Japan falling into the hands of communisim and it prevented the massive loss of us troops if they had also invaded and possibly prevented a conflict between Russia and the Allies.
It also let the world see how devastating these weapons are.
Therefore it could argued that it was justified to use then on this occasion but at what a terible cost to the children and innocent people of Japan.
Getting back to the point of torture then i do believe that the same rules should apply to all who use it and where evidence is found of it's use by anyone in the world then they should be brought to account for it.
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The Man With No Band
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12/18/2008 9:41:23 AM
"War and all it's consequences is truly abhorrent, there are times when it seems unavoidable(Iraq was not one of those!) but it's the long sequence of events that lead up to these wars that need attention, massive changes in foreign policy, the way we interact with each other are the only solution."
A-men Andy ... maybe someday ....
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12/18/2008 10:13:56 AM
I also agree with what Andy said but we already have a system in place that should avoid these escalations into war.
It's called the United Nations and no war should be entered into without a United Nations mandate.
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12/18/2008 12:00:16 PM
what a cool friedly place.
who is un.
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