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Holo Lukaloa
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4/22/2009 7:42:50 AM
The tide has turned, the torturers are gonna get punished.
Good work, Obama.
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AnigmaS
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4/22/2009 5:51:25 PM
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Jeff Allen Myers
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4/22/2009 7:24:20 PM
---- Updated 4/22/2009 7:29:42 PM
The sad/scary truth is Terrorists will take "thousands" of lives over the next twenty years. The primary reason is they do not play by rules and do not have a "moral compass"
As we "evolve" we will continue to be handicapped, and the terrorists will take full advantage of the human rights we give them. I believe they are subhuman and should not be afforded such rights. They will behead and torture, while we accomodate them.
I do believe torture is inherently wrong, and we can't guarantee inncocent lives will not be affected. I am not defending torture by any means... just the fact that terrorists will exploit our good will and "humanity" to their advantage. Our Laws, Ethics, Morality will fail to prevent a catastrophe. The question is, are the innocent lives lost worth the sacrifice to keep our "humanity" in tact. To many the answer is a resounding yes,others do not mind giving up a few rights of privacy that provide a means to combat those that have no regard for innocent life.
I do not want to get into a debate whether water boarding works, or if it has prevented the loss of human life. I am speaking about the overall picture here. It includes more then interrogation, it entails search laws, profiling, due process, etc.Yes I agree these are all crucial to our society, and it separates our country from many others. They should be protected and defended, but make no mistake the terrorists will exploit them, and I have no doubt they will succeed.
These are scary times, and we have tough choices to make as a society. No matter how you feel, we should always have a dialog, and find ways that can protect human rights for the innocent while giving us effective tools to prevent a holocaust.
Respectfully,
Jeff
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The Man With No Band
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4/22/2009 8:28:16 PM
Of course Jeff ... here is an issue where we think nothing alike ... I'll never understand the fear of terrorism ... ever ... The fear itself does so much more greater harm than the actual terrorist that it's a no contest ... Giving up your freedoms to be free just does not make any sense at all ... Since the beginning of time there has been evil in this world ... and there will be until the end ... the fear is the evils greatest victory ...
It makes logical thinking obsolete ... it justifies torture, spying, killing all in the name of fear ... it's really ridiculous if you think about it ...
Every empire that has existed on earth has eventually crumbled and in almost every instance it has came from it's own internal self, and usually while it was looking for that "outside" evil ... I do not think we are special ...
More Americans lose there lives EVERY week in auto accidents than will EVER die at the hands of terrorist ...
More Americans die EVERY two months by murder from another American than will EVER die at the hands of terrorist ...
More Americans die each and EVERY year by incompetent medical practices than will EVER die at the hands of terrorist ...
More Americans commit suicide EVERY year than will EVER die at the hands of a terrorist ...
More Americans die each and EVERY year from SELF INFLICTED addictions than will EVER die at the hands of a terrorist ...
More Americans die each and EVERY year from conditions caused by poverty than will EVER die at the hands of a terrorist ...
Corporate hazardous dumping grounds have done WAY more damage to this country than terrorist EVER will ...
The fear that McCarthy put into America ruined more peoples lives in a decade than terrorism EVER will ...
The corporates are swallowing this country up and THEY are the silent terrorist that will KILL America ... not the handful of idiots walking around with a homemade rocket launcher on their shoulders ...
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Jeff Allen Myers
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4/22/2009 9:01:16 PM
---- Updated 4/22/2009 9:07:13 PM
Sam, you are looking at the past.. You cannot use terms like "will ever die at the hands of a terrorist" because you do not know the future. I believe the attacks of the future will be nuclear or chemical. Either with "dirty bombs" or something more sophisticated. This will entail massive loss of human life....
To counter one of your exmples,....Sure people die in automobile accidents... but we have sobriety check points, speed limits,, Highway patrols. Its not like nothing is being done to prevent the loss of life....
I tempered my response, there is a ton of grey area in there Sam, I believe we should have a dialog to find methods we can live with. I have never endorsed a wholesale loss of rights, I do however endorse a tempered, common sense approach that we can all live with... Our rights are tempered everyday...My employer has a right to read my e-mails, record phone conversations, drug test. They do none of these things because there is no suspicion and I am performing my job satisfactory. My employer is looking out for their interests, as a country we have a collective interest at security. I would not go as far as my private employer, but I do believe law enforecement and intelligence agencies need "common sense" tools, some people are not willing to concede this.... at all. I do not want to become a police state and have my privacy taken away, but I do believe there is middle ground. Its really not a point of contention, its just an opinion.
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Texas Willie
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4/22/2009 9:09:05 PM
Hey Jeff!
I AGREE WITH YOU!...and to a certain degree with Sammy.....I will NEVER agree with Holo.
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The Man With No Band
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4/22/2009 9:25:48 PM
Well ... I still disagree ... I will however not say you are Crazy or stupid for your opinion, but I think fear is a bigger problem than the problem itself ...
Just as big an issue here is the fact that although I do not agree with A LOT of the laws we have in this country ... We are a nation of laws as you have pointed out many times ...
If you or I break the law, we can expect to have to face the consequences ... and so should these people ... whether you agree with torture or illegal wiretapping is not the point ... the point is it IS illegal ... they broke the law ... they should face the consequences ...
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The Man With No Band
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4/22/2009 9:35:34 PM
I also think you dismiss the past way to easily ... Wanna make a wager on how many Americans will be murdered next year , or how many will die in auto accidents, or how many will die from terrorism ?
My predictions ... you can throw them back in face if you like if I'm wrong ...
Murders .. between 16 and 18 thousand ...
Auto Accidents ... between 40 and 45 thousand
Death by terrorist .... ZERO
Here is one more for you ... death by lightning strikes ... between 80 and 95
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Holo Lukaloa
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4/22/2009 11:55:40 PM
---- Updated 4/23/2009 1:06:57 AM
Jeff, you may not want to discuss it but numerous CIA interrogators have come out and said these acts did not bring useful info. It's obvious that if it did, they wouldn't've had to do it 6 times a day for months.
Furthermore it came out yesterday that one of the main reasons they even started to torture was to try to get prisoners to say what they wanted to hear, that Iraq was tied to Al Queda.
We prosecuted so many in the past for torturing. It is the lowest thing America has ever done in our lifetimes and Cheney needs to fry.
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Kevin White
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4/23/2009 12:33:11 AM
---- Updated 4/23/2009 12:37:00 AM
This is how I see it all playing out:
GWB urges Mary Cheney (lesbian daughter to Dick a.k.a. "Darth" to his friends) to kill Darth Cheney and "fulfill her destiny" by becoming GWB's new apprentice. Mary refuses and throws down her lightsaber. Enraged, GWB unleashes a torrent of Force lightning upon Mary. In agony, Mary begs her father for help. The sight of his daughter's suffering breaks the dark side's hold on Cheney, and he becomes who the fuck knows what, once again. He grabs GWB and throws him into the Death Star's reactor core, killing him. In the process, however, he is mortally wounded by the Bush lightning. Moments from death, Dick begs his daughter to take off his breath-mask so he can look at her with his own eyes; Mary complies and, for the first time, father and daughter truly see each other. In his last words, Darth Cheney tells Mary to tell Leia that there was good left in him after all, it's wrong to have sexual thoughts about her sister, and dies redeemed. Mary escapes on a shuttle with her father's body as the Death Star explodes, destroyed by the Rebel Alliance. That night, Mary cremates her father's body in its armor and, during the victory celebration on Endor's forest moon, she sees the redeemed spirit of Dick Cheney standing alongside the spirits of Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda. Oddly, they're all naked.
Then everyone goes to Applebee's for cocktails.
I'm thinking movie deal ... ???
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Jeff Allen Myers
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4/23/2009 7:18:54 AM
Sam,
I hope you are 100% right on the terrorists deaths, and the other stats are much lower.
Holo,
I do find it odd to waterboard someone hundreds of times, I think the whole point is to make the person think he is drowning. After about the tenth time I would think it would lose its effectiveness.
If what you say is true, and they were only trying to get political ammo to justify the war, that is sick. I do not have enough information at the moment, I did see on the news tonight the attorney general has ruled against prosecution. If that is true, this whole thing has been nothing but political grandstanding.
Jeff
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