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Hop On Pop
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9/3/2008 5:52:55 AM
How many of you here actually entertain the idea of making a living with your music?
For me, it's just a matter of getting my stuff heard.
If I make any money at all, it's just a bonus. I just want to be able to sustain myself with the music just enough to make another record. If, by some freak of nature, I am able to go above and beyond that, it's all gravy. Hell, I don't even dream about becoming anything resembling a "rock star" anymore.
How about you?
Why are you here?
Are you still trying to "make it" in the business, or are you like me and are just trying to get heard?
Do you tour?
(If so, are you coming to Chicago? Drop me a line!)
I think the internet has allowed more folks like me to have a louder voice, and that is cool. Because I think that we take our music just as seriously as those who are there to do it as a living. We just don't deal with the B.S. that a lot of the career musicians have to deal with.
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Steve White
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9/3/2008 6:16:20 AM
Hi Todd
My big thing right now is looking for recording artists to sell my songs to, or even write some new ones for them.
I've done the gig thing cross country a few times and naa, not the life for me. :)
While I wait. I post my songs up all over the place because I also want my music heard by as many as possible.
And the last thing is............I love playing music!
Steve
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Hop On Pop
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9/3/2008 6:21:33 AM
I think love of music is what keeps all of us going.
And yeah, I wouldn't mind getting my songs recorded by some "major"-type artists, either. But I don't think that I could do the Songwriter thing, either: writing songs on-demand for specific artists.
I actually had a brief conversation with Jim Peterik not too long ago, and hearing him talk about what he did, sounded pretty frustrating. He was writing songs for the next Meatloaf album, at the time and had had several tunes rejected as "not being quite right". Seems like it would take the joy out of the creation process.
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the kozy king
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9/3/2008 6:34:37 AM
Although I have no plans to make money with my music, performing my songs live is super important to me because it's something I've never done. It's always been cover bands. I've always tried to write
songs, but just resumed writing (and playing) a few years ago.
SAme as you Tod. It's for the love of music.
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9/3/2008 6:39:20 AM
For me it is all about money because how can we determine if we are any good at all unless we judge it by sales. I don't sell much music but if I were good enough then I would. Therefore I value my music in direct relation to how much money it makes because how else can I judge. That's not to say that the plays and station adds and awards are not appreciatted because they are but that is mostly down to other artists and not the public. When and if I ever write and record music that is good enough for the public to purchase in reasonable quantity then that is the day when I will be content and know that I am good.
The problem is that the standard that I have to reach in order to achieve sales is so high that it is probably outwith my capability.
I do believe however than we can all make a bit more money if we allow our songs to be downloaded free while a sponser pays us for the hits on our page.
I do believe that this is the future for us indies and that instead of struggling to create sales we struggle to give our music away for free. In that way our music may get out there more and if it is good enough then the hits on our pages increase which will increase our value to our sponsers who advertise on our pages.
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Hop On Pop
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9/3/2008 6:52:41 AM
I do believe however than we can all make a bit more money if we allow our songs to be downloaded free while a sponser pays us for the hits on our page.
I do believe that this is the future for us indies and that instead of struggling to create sales we struggle to give our music away for free. In that way our music may get out there more and if it is good enough then the hits on our pages increase which will increase our value to our sponsers who advertise on our pages.
I had a similar idea that I was pitching to the guy who owns my label (who is also a friend), because he is struggling to stay afloat and tired of loosing money like he has for the past 10 years.
Not talking about validation, Ray. We're all too smart to believe you or anything like you're mocking there. But, just the idea of being able to somehow "make it".
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9/3/2008 7:40:00 AM
Ye Laree, touring is an answer.
I'd pay to see you perform if you ever came to Scotland.
I've watched your video's and you are one if not the best performer on the site.
No kidding
ray
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the perfect banana
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9/3/2008 8:02:53 AM
Part of the reason indies have so much trouble selling their music is because of all the free downloads out there. Napster and mp3.com helped kill the business of indie music before it could prosper.
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9/3/2008 8:25:55 AM
na bannana
napster had no affect at all. This business re-invents itself everyday with thousounds of new listeners. Nothing that happened before has much relevance.
Free downloads is the answer and time will prove me right.
p.s i do love you bannana and i'm sorry i told you to peel off yesterday but it's just that i find you quite attractive.
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never never band
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9/3/2008 8:28:06 AM
I teach and I Gig..
that's the only music money coming in.
I-Tunes and CD baby still sell Sticky Pistil CDs, but it's not much.
Back when I toured it was pretty tough, as a relatively unknown band with on minimal tour support.
I think I've said before that my best year touring was $21,000.
heh..
and that was working Constantly.
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The Man With No Band
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9/3/2008 8:37:21 AM
I am making a living with my music ... it's just my living standards are lower than most ... 'bout twenty-five dollars a week is all a man really needs .... :)
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Black Velvet Lace
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9/3/2008 9:16:17 AM
Oh I dunno Larree.. I'll bet most men could sustain on 25 bucks a week if they didn't have a wife/kids/mortgage/etc... if my hub were single he'd be happy with a TV, a bed, a chair and access to a kitchen (I know this.. I saw his bachelor pad with my own eyes :D ).
As for making money making music, during grad school I did live off gigging live. After school was over gigging became a much loved weekly avocation. After 20 years I got sick and had to give it up. I don't now miss the hours, but do miss the *playing*.
~Lace~
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The Man With No Band
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9/3/2008 9:18:02 AM
I'm actually serious Larree ... this week I get extra cash and am staying in a $400,000.00 house (owners gone) ... I'm Dog sitting and playing my acoustic to him ... It's quite a gig and I'm loving it ! .... I haven't had a job for seven years now ... and I've probably only averaged 'bout twenty-five dollars a week ...
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Andy Broad
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9/3/2008 9:26:33 AM
I've been making my living from music for about 18 years now. I earn a little more than Sam's $25.00 a week, but not much :-)
I mainly gig, busk, sell a few CDs (almost all whilst busking, a few at gigs, very rarely on line).
I've tried a few variations of making money from my misic online but very few have worked. I've yet to sell a download, nonone has clicked on any of my donate buttons (not the music ones anyway, the hobbiest Amiga programming button has got used a couple of times).
I've tried adding google adds to my main website and that's generating $0.75 a month (success!) and I'm getting a trickle of listens at last.fm, don't know how much royalties that gonna get me but I wont be buying a house with it :-).
So for me gigging is still the way.
I don't compromise my music at all, otherwise I could maybe make a little more money doing "pop" stuff but I might as well build satelites for a living (what I used to before becoming an muso).
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satch
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9/3/2008 9:32:45 AM
Susan and I are still at it, earning what we can gigging and selling CD's (also mostly at gigs). I also earn from recording and producing other artists, and also royalties from library music... we get by thanks to the combination of all of that with some internet web site work... but we do live as cheaply as possible, growing our own food, minimising our energy consumption, etc etc.
We have no great dreams of fame and fortune, but we do hope that our music touches a few people in a way that makes them think a little more about this life, hopefully encouraging people to see beyond the physical...
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Kevin White
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9/3/2008 10:05:22 AM
As a kid, I gigged for years ... back when I could earn 25 a wk and survive nicely. We earned enough to get by.
Eventually, I turned to a gig as a musical manufacturers rep to pay the bills, keeping my avocation as a vocation. I represented the top name in the gear biz at the time: EV, Denon, Hafler, Pro Co, Cerwin Vega, Symmetrix, Sherwood, Kramer Guitars, etc ...
It was fun, but the travel was punishing.
I left that to open my own local business ... which has led to me not having to worry about paying the bills ...
One of the aspects I didn't like about music as a career was that I had to rely on it to pay bills ... and so my decisions were colored by my needs and motivations.
Now ... well ...
I can do whatever the hell I want ... and I still sell my music ... w/o worrying about it needing to support me.
And Ray - I believe you're right about the distribution model. What I'd like to see is indie networks begin to promote their in house rosters -- and pay artists when their content is performed ... out of advertising/banner revenue ... just like radio used to do.
If artist's music is the draw, why do the proprietors who count on visitational "hits" ... otherwise known as "listeners" ... and take hit counts to sell to advertisers ... akin to what Arbitron used to do in radio ...
... the music is already uploaded and stored ... which is paid for by the uploading artist.
Why do they get free music, and ad revenue, and only give back to the artist when they "sell".
But ... here's the rub:
Nobody sells when it's always a click away for free ... available any time.
"Plays" is what artists will eventually have to generate revenue from.
Best,
Kev-
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Slimdog Productions
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9/3/2008 10:51:20 AM
---- Updated 9/3/2008 10:53:57 AM
We're hoping to live our dream through Cashbox Records Inc., There are plans to do a college circuit tour, some festivals and some radio promos through them. One of the groups that signed with Cashbox and that is here on IAC, The Lemmings, are from S. Africa. They are, as we speak, doing a tour here in the US and Cashbox's booking agency, is working to get them a spot on Jay Leno while here in the US. Pretty serious stuff. They are also doing shows in Austin, California and Vegas while on their 6 month visas...Our album is almost completed. We have one track to finish and then on for mastering. Hopefully, October will be in full swing for us. Internet has watered down the music product where it is harder than ever to compete, but if you use venues like IAC, podcasting (hint hint) and giving away some free downloads, you can build a fanbase where indie labels and majors may take notice. It takes some work and luck....If things go well, I hope to leave my job at the airlines eventually.
P.S. Block Scholars want to send a prayer to Mike Peace, who had a serious stroke a few days ago. Our prayers are with you. Get well brother....
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Steve Ison
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9/3/2008 4:08:12 PM
---- Updated 9/3/2008 4:15:06 PM
Well playing live 200 nights a year sounds like the best (and most obvious way) to sell CDs and make money.Tho like Larree and Kevin said incessant,grinding lofi gigging year in-year out dosn't sound much fun to me past the age of 22 or something...
I still believe i'll make a living from doing music one day-tho other than working hard to keep developing myself as a songwriter i do absoloutly nothing practical to realise that dream..
Maybe it'll never happen,but i'm fine with that.
It feels like i'll lose something if i inwardly give up on it- so i'm quite content to stay deluded till i die..keepin' it unreal! Yo!!
I've sold about 10 copies of my CD,but i prefer to think of it more as a quality limited edition heh...
Actually,applying Rays theory to myself here-i can definitely understand why people havn't brought it after unwittingly hearing one my tracks 'sandra's face' straight after some well recorded songs on one of my station this morning..It sounded like sh*t- i certainly wouldn't've brought it.
I'm more envious of famous artists ability to hire orchestras and brass bands or be indulged in whatever sonic whim they fancy to paint their songs exactly how they want, more than the fame,acclaim or money if i'm honest..
Its cool i've got so much free-time and space to make music tho...I'm still getting away with it.
I feel really blessed by that compared to so many people here who have little time to be creative at all and are stressed n pressured up to the eyeballs by work n life.
I wouldn't swap the freedom i have there for all the money in the world..
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Hop On Pop
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9/3/2008 4:39:20 PM
I've sold about 10 copies of my CD,but i prefer to think of it more as a quality limited edition heh...
Check my "Now Playing" thread and you'll know where at least one of those copies is! I've sold about 100. And that's with a label behind me! You're doing pretty good, Steve!
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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9/3/2008 4:55:25 PM
---some fine words here!!
Slim Dog ---all our best vibes beaming across to ewe for the CD!
Music has been part of my income stream for many years ---gigs --teaching---selling for tv adds---gala days--- festivals----and don't forget funerals!!!
Have played at a few funerals now-----always very meaningful---often have to learn a specific song (or more) of the families choice!!
usually young people who have died ---but the family doesn't want --the usual organ music!
------and we record up and coming artists cheaply. also!
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Slimdog Productions
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9/3/2008 5:06:32 PM
Thanks buddy. We can use all the vibes we can get!!! We hope to be like you Steve, where all we do is music and nothing else. I just feel that we can do SO much more creative-wise if the majority of our time was not spent working so we can make music instead of making music work for us...but I wouldn't consider it work when it comes to making music!!!
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Bob Elliott
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9/3/2008 5:14:51 PM
I do it because I'm the real deal.
Whether I get money or no...
But I'm a dedicated dad, and nothing's changing that either...so I'll probably be obscure.
So what? My mind's in it all the time for years and years...
To be honest, for the core that actually makes the music, the creative core, the outside world is just that: the outside world, and sort of not relevant to what I need to do...
People that think like I do probably die obscure...
Again: so what?
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The Man With No Band
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9/3/2008 5:27:14 PM
Wow ... you're pretty cheery today Bob ....
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Steve Ison
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9/3/2008 5:34:27 PM
---- Updated 9/3/2008 5:43:16 PM
Slim..I'm very lucky i live in the UK as that has a much better welfare system than the U.S..I get 2/3rds of my rent paid in housing benefit-allowing me to do a 16 hour a week part-time job (doing music as well)..I don't have kids or no-one to look after either other than myself..
You need time and space to develop creatively-i can't see any other way..
The U.S sounds tough,tough,TOUGH man-i'm so glad i wasn't born there.
Dunno how Sam manages on $25 a week-now thats seriously lofi living...
Good luck with your recording deal..:)
100 copies is all i printed up of TSANRD Todd! (i've still got about 20 left..Most have been given away to friends or for promotion..
100 copies actually SOLD sounds like gold disc status to me lol
I'm so glad you're still enjoying my album,Really appreciate you still playing it :)
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Duane Flock
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9/3/2008 6:11:44 PM
I play in two cover bands now, and that pays basically for my strings, repairs, gas to gigs, ect. ect.
I have a full-time job for the bills for a living cause Who knows when I'll sell a CD. I buy 200 blank copies at a time and wind-up giving them all away because I figure I'd rather have the strategic coverage for future possible ventures. I play gigs on my own to promote my original material, and everybody says "your voice is great" or "I like this tune or that". I know they're just being nice, because nothing ever comes of it.
So,..... I'm basically here to clog up everyone else chances plus I'm not a quitter....
I've had no new tunes lately cause there's a couple of colabs in the works coming soon also. ( I'm Dragging "Em Down with me Bwhahahahahaha!!!!.....)
D.
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Slimdog Productions
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9/3/2008 7:29:50 PM
Thanks Steve, you're such a class act!!! My plans are at this time that when the booking for the tours start, thank God with my job, I can drop trips (I'm a flight attendant), where I can get a good number of days off. I won't be performing on stage (sometimes to hype the crowd), but I would like to be there to sell merchandise as well (CDs, t-shirts). You are So lucky to have your life that way in the UK. Luckily, I also have an understanding wife and my 4 kids are in their teens, so they don't need to watched over...too much.
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Kevin White
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9/3/2008 7:37:37 PM
The U.S. support system is based on a simple premise:
"Do you like Cat food?"
I think that this is predicated on the belief that since old people who have gone w/o dental support their whole life ... well, they have presumably already lost their teeth WAY before arriving at old age.
So ... cat food ... void of tough chewing ...
IS the diet of many elder Americans.
Sometimes we like to call it "Ensure" ... because it's a MUCH more palatable simile ... but really it's the same pureed stuff.
Breakfast of Musicians!
Kev-
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Nigels
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9/3/2008 7:51:58 PM
This is a great thread, I would like to thank everyone for their honest open sharing. I dont know if you caught Beth's thread about playing in the subway but one evening she made $190 and got heaps of positive feedback so as things stands it seems she is doing really well.
I agree and disagree with Rays comment, money is important and if people like your music enough to buy it then thats pretty solid evidence that you are doing something thats working.
But I dont see this applying to music purley as an artform as oppopsed to entertainment, sometimes its takes a while for people to understand and appreciate great art.
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Richard Scotti
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9/3/2008 10:30:59 PM
---- Updated 9/3/2008 10:38:26 PM
I make a modest living producing other people's songs. But sometimes it's even worse than a 9-5 job. Clients can be very demanding and at times very much in denial about their material. Some clients are a joy to work with. Others are a nightmare. I often turn jobs down because of this reason. My inability to make money with my own material depresses me greatly at times even though I've only started to think seriously that I could do it if I had the right legal representation to help me with the business end of ptiching songs as I am not very good at that. I love making music for it's own reward and I will do it for the rest of life if I am able but I would like to make substantially more money than I do now. I fear that the country is headed for an economic depression and I'd like to be prepared for it.
There are some people who can do it all. They can write, record, play and be their own managers. Well, I can write, record and play, but I can't manage my career.
I just can't do it. I'm a very shy person who does not enjoy promoting myself although I have learned a little about that at IAC. My whole strategy was to join IAC which I did a few months ago and try to assess my work trhough the evaluations of others. I then worked harder than ever to step up my game and write a few more songs that were as good as or better than the ones I already had. I've got about 25 songs on my page and several new ones in progress.
When I reach 30 songs I feel I can eliminate some of the weaker ones and out together a killer CD of only the best songs. Then I'll feel ready to hire people to help me sell my music.
It seems almost impossible to have worked as hard as I have, spent as much money as I've spent and spent as much time as I have and not achieve a substantial monetary reward. I would love to have enough money to do other creative projects like short films and rock musicals, off broadway music based plays, etc. But for now all I can do is struggle to produce my own work with the money I get from producing other people's work. Sometimes I get paid in studio time and that certainly has it's pros and cons. It's a constant balancing act.
I want with all my heart to write a hit record for an established artist. I don't know if that will ever happen but I'll never give up trying. Money isn't everything but without it, a world of possibilites and opportunities continues to shrink. You need money to make money. Art is it's own reward but without money it's very hard to make good art.
Sometimes I get so discouraged by the music scene and how hard it is to get recognized that I just want to give up completely. Bu then I write a new song that moves me and moves otthers at IAC and I start to get filled with hope again but lately I've been concerned that I may reach a point where I just can't put in the time, energy and money into a hobby that has little chance of becoming a profession. I really dread that day in a serious way. I simply don't know how I will live with the fact that I've devoted my whole adult life and sacrificed so much for something that may not succeed in a tangible way. My music gives me great joy but the joy is tempered by feelings of failure that so far I haven't made more money from it, money for much needed vacations, money to help others, money to pay off loans, money for expensive dental work,money to improve living condtions which have a tremendous effect on creativity and well being.
As they say in Hollywood, it's a thrill just to get nominated but it's a biiger thrill to actually win. I'm tired of being nomnated for the prize. For once I just want to grab that brass ring while I still can.
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Conversation Suicide
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9/3/2008 10:38:03 PM
---- Updated 9/3/2008 11:02:04 PM
Hmm.... so much already said. But a subject near & dear to my heart. Realistically, I'm much like Steve Ison, choosing to live in the delusional un-reality that I might some day NOT need a day/night job i.e. , might someday "make it" whatever that really means!
While we DO have the forthcoming CD of our "BEST OF" being released on ROMULUS X Records, thanks to IACMusic providing an introduction to Kenny Colgate who truly promotes Indie Artists he likes, it'll be on OUR shoulders (except for promo by the label) to SELL these beasts...
I started keeping track of money going in and out for ARTFEST MUSIC, and with sales of D.I.Y. cds on the D.I.Y. label Artfest music, funds from shows, etc. we're currently in the BLACK by like $40 cLEARLY not a career musician per se, yet.
BUT, that is my dream and goal. And ALL three of our last CDs sales only resulted in about 200 sold. MANY more were given away as promos in ARIZONA & in a smaller way, thoughout the world by mail, travels, etc. So hopefully the interest is gradually building....
So am I completely delusional? I don't think so, but time will tell! Either way, I'll be tryin' to get my music out there, until I die, because I think it's ONE of the many things I'm supposed to do on this crazy planet.
Whether I eventually make enough money to NOT have to work a "day" job, while pursuing my music career, is NOT really that critical, because I'm always being reminded to do it for the LOVE of it. And a Singer/Musician/Entertainer/Promoter/MC is who I believe I'm supposed to be. Plus, pursuing these artistic endeavors keeps me a little more sane.
Either way, I still get to LOVE my family & spend time with them, while pursuin' all this. To tell you the truth, having lots of kids is definitely a life decision that has made the starvin' artist route less possible. For this reason alone, I may always have to have another career/money makin' endeavor required. All this for my foolish dream to live as if I were a musician who's works may be somewhat known one day.... Okay. Now THAT is DEFINITELY a little delusional, but it's what I do.
- my two cents worth, 'cause it's all I can afford > Phlegm of Conversation Suicide
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9/4/2008 12:35:11 AM
One thing for sure, money or no money what we have here in this community is priceless.
To Steve Ison
Hey man don't put yourself down cus you are one of the best songwriters on the site and your sounding great it's just that the standard is so high on this site.
To Nigels
Good point again about the time it can take to appreciatte art. I guess the story of van goughs life proves that. The posts on here have mellowed my thought aand shown me that we are dealing with here is something much more important that money.
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Nigels
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9/4/2008 4:09:21 AM
Ray
The work that you are doing here is priceless. I would like to take this opportunity to say you have a beautiful sound. As I have said before on a previous thread the interview work is incredibly valuable. Also your stations were you support the new and emerging artists has given much joy to many. IAC is a great place and you are a great muscian.
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Tony Vani and Debbie Hoskin
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9/4/2008 4:40:45 AM
I have made money at music. I use to gig quite a bit and a few of my songs did quite well in the Canadian market a decade or so ago. I recieved some nice royalty checks.
I don't really expect to make money in this business. I never have. I went to school to have a career that would support me which has enabled me to enjoy playing music as a hobby and as a second income. I got lucky a few times with music but you can't count on it. I had a family to raise and I needed something I could count on. Deb
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kurtkurtley
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9/4/2008 4:59:31 AM
I make all the money I need doing Steve Ison covers ; )
(Well, ALMOST all the money I need...."I get the news I need on the weather report")
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kurtkurtley
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9/4/2008 4:59:31 AM
I make all the money I need doing Steve Ison covers ; )
(Well, ALMOST all the money I need...."I get the news I need on the weather report")
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My-T-Hi
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9/4/2008 6:50:26 AM
A good friend once said that CDs are just like realy good fliers for gigs.. so give them away for free..
I guess this isn't a great business model.... but I think there is a good point there.
When I was in high school, my band made a couple of 7" singles. It didn't make any money but 25 years later it was put on a compilation CD.. I'm I glad I did that? Yes.....
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