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Jesse Adams
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8/5/2009 8:57:35 PM
I'm thinking the judges voting will really change things in the song competition...
... that is, assuming they will be taking all sides of making quality music into consideration. Quality of recording, performance, presence, how closely the entered song actually relates to the genre it's supposed to represent, etc.
I'm hoping the judges are on my side. I want to win... but I don't expect to.
Good luck everybody!
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LyinDan
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8/5/2009 9:02:41 PM
I believe you're correct :)
Boy! I hope I win!
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Jesse Adams
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8/5/2009 9:38:36 PM
haha, I hope you win too!
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Drewsus
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8/5/2009 10:56:11 PM
Well I hope you are wrong Jesse, cause if those are things the judges are rating highly, that probably won't be good news for us.
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Jesse Adams
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8/6/2009 1:05:33 AM
It's hard to say really. Since this is IAC, those types of things might not matter very much. IMHO, they should. Guess we'll see!
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Bryon Tosoff
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8/6/2009 1:18:19 AM
---- Updated 8/6/2009 2:27:53 AM
what ever happens happens Jesse and Drewsus and all,.just let it Ride...what matters is the music, not the contest
it is cool to have it of course and all the kudos in the world to iacmusic for doing it. I think it is a really good thing to do ..But dont get too overwrought or concerned about the end results, sure it is good to see who likes you or your music or see how you fare so to speak,and compared to others in whatever category, but for me it is all about the music and the joy you/I get from it.in doing it, making it, listening to it
'
.....contests are perhaps important for some, but for me it is all about the music, the beauty within it and the ability to appreciate the many styles and varying kinds of people who make it all happen...as you all know, I listen and love listening to music, all kinds and let the artists know I appreciate their talents and abilities
anyways, that is just me..and I am sure there are others who feel the same way.
again, just let it Ride and happen
so, best to all and to all of you ,,good luck : )
bryon
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Tom O'Brien
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8/6/2009 2:29:46 AM
Bryon, you are so right. It is all about the music. Being able to vote has gotten me to check out music I never would have heard before, and people have obviously been checking out my tunes, too, by the look of the numbers. So I think the contest is a great idea in that way.
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Richard Scotti
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8/6/2009 4:10:33 AM
Words of wisdom from Bryon as usual....It really doesn't matter who wins. The contest has already been a smashing success on every level. I've been discovering great songs from artists who I never knew existed!! It's great to get outside the bubble of the recent topics page where the same dozen people blog everyday and to see the hundreds of new names and faces and songs on IAC. Very few women post on this page but there are plenty of them out there writing and singing really good songs. It was refreshing to discover!
The contest has also improved stats in general. Mine seem to be higher than ever and since the contest started I've gotten 23 new station adds! I owe all of this to the contest and to the listeners who are voting and responding in such large numbers.
We've often asked on this forum: "Where is everybody?" Now I know! And I hope more of these artists will share their comments in public.
Do I hope I win? Sure. Do I think I will? Not really, but the voting is so fluid and fluctuating that anything is possible and that's what makes it so exciting. Everyone has a chance. But no one should get their knickers in a twist as to who wins or doesn't win. When unique plays, station adds and site traffic are all way up, it's a win-win situation.
The whole concept and design of the contest is brilliant and my hat is off to all at IAC who thunk it up! The angst is gone and the fun is back at IAC.
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Conversation Suicide
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8/6/2009 3:44:38 PM
Ditto to all y'all's comments.
Bottomline is: Another cool way to get indie music OUT there!
-pHLeGM
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Steve Ison
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8/6/2009 5:05:02 PM
Jesse..People take whatever factors into consideration depending on who they are and what they like.
I really hope the 'balanced' dispassionate criteria you're advocating dosn't come into play..Thats not how people instinctively respond to music-so it wouldn't be honest..
If its ultimately decided on judges decisions i hope they just vote for what they love and what they're personally passionate about,even ifd they don't like my songs..Thats how i'd do it if i were a judge..
Must confess,i'm a wee bit confused about how it all works anyway
People are voting-they get thru and then the final winners are decided by the judges out of those that get thru?
Is that correct?
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Bam Singh
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8/6/2009 6:01:01 PM
At the conclusion of Round One voting, songs in each category will be ranked according to the aggregate number of votes received, with 50% of the ranking based upon members' votes and 50% based upon judging. In each category, the top half of the field by rank, plus ties, will be retained and entered into Round Two of the competition; songs in the lower half of the field in each Category will be eliminated. Entry to the competition will continue throughout.
A similar procedure will be followed for Round Two voting and eliminations, followed by Round Three and the Final Round.
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John Pippus
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8/6/2009 6:38:29 PM
I've started adding comments on the contest pages for what songs I'm voting for and why. I think that's a good way to get some feedback going. And anyway it's a way to get my mug out there (vote for me!) without beating people over the head with it.
John
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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8/6/2009 10:54:20 PM
I have to agree with Richard and Bryon !
and add-----the "sort by Votes" button is an extra bonus---!!
plus the widget thingy is absolutely scrumpious imo----
big kudos for these !!!
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Jesse Adams
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8/7/2009 2:04:39 AM
It's not just you Bryon. It's lots of folks. Especially here.
You're preaching to the choir gentlemen.
One thing I've observed about many artists here at IAC is that everyone thinks they know more than everyone else. Why would I say that? Well for one I can't post a simple blog about a couple of simple thoughts without someone going, "Oh no my boy, this is how it REALLY is."
Now before some of you take your time to write some drawn out rebuttal to my previous comment, just chill. I don't care OR need to know why you said what you said, or what you really meant when you said it. Stop being so over analytical.
To Steve Ison, dispassionate criteria? What the fuck are you talking about? This is something I don't understand about the "indie" attitude... the preconceived notion that it's supposed to (or going to) sound like crap, and anything that sounds good must surely only be hollow commercial nonsense. How in the world it would be unnatural or dishonest to react to the sound QUALITY of a recording or performance is beyond me. It's one of the first things I notice when listening to new music. If you're really listening, I see no way around it. I must be one of those crazy people that expects the people pushing there music in the world to actually sound like they know what they're doing. It's like saying, "Hey guys, we should have this awesome movie contest, but we're not going to judge the photography or the acting... just the __script!"
There's more to it than that.
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Bryon Tosoff
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8/7/2009 2:43:10 AM
Great post Jesse. probably the best one you ever have done, from the heart, like I have said in the past. Your music says a lot,about you, about the musicianship, quality of productions, originality, and all that, and I backed that up with acknowledging your fine tunes I Always enjoy what you do Jesse. all good here and i am all for you and what you do, you have my votes, always......here and at my little stations wherever they may be
bryon
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Jeff Allen Myers
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8/7/2009 4:43:41 AM
"I don't care OR need to know why you said what you said, or what you really meant when you said it."
"To Steve Ison, dispassionate criteria? What the fuck are you talking about?"
Jessie, That made me smile :)
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Bryon Tosoff
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8/7/2009 6:15:10 AM
no comment
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Jeff Allen Myers
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8/7/2009 7:32:35 AM
You commented with your no comment Byron.... :)
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Conversation Suicide
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8/7/2009 2:46:23 PM
urrrr.. yeah... and you just commented to Bryon's No comment, with yer, uh... comment.....
oh damn.
i need a job. RAWK!
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Bryon Tosoff
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8/7/2009 4:57:03 PM
no comment
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Jeff Allen Myers
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8/7/2009 6:23:52 PM
---- Updated 8/7/2009 6:24:38 PM
If you don't see the humor in Jessie's post perhaps you should read it a few times.... It is quite a contradiction...it made me smile... what can I say.
Bryon, I think I deserve more then a no comment from you Sir, that is open to much interpretation. :)
Plegmn, you and Bryon are great for PR and Marketing...If My agent did not suck, he would be in touch with the two of you :)
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Bryon Tosoff
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8/7/2009 7:22:14 PM
ok Jeff, sorry. I feel that I should not make anymore comments here on this blog due to the comment left by Jesse who requested that we need not respond to his response or critique him etc, so no comment, but will follow up here if you wish me to do so about the whole issue that Jesse brought up. But I think that is unnecessary since he handled it nicely and I understand his concerns
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Jeff Allen Myers
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8/7/2009 7:43:26 PM
I am just trying to stay light hearted, it is my new lot in life :)
No worries ..... :)
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Bryon Tosoff
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8/7/2009 7:53:20 PM
no more analyzing required like Jesse said. I have to prepare for a memorial service music thing for a client, so off to prep songs up for Monday
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Sly Witt
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8/7/2009 8:35:50 PM
Even though I love the Beatles, I still like the Stones. Some of my favorite Neil Young tunes are the least produced. Some of Steve Ison's 'loosely produced' low-fi tunes are some of my favorites on IAC. The best produced stuff isn't always the best stuff.
That's not to say that I don't appreciate slick production. That's not to say that I don't try to do the best I can at production.
The trick is to have the production match the song and the writer's intent.
I'm not so sure what of Steve's comment rattled another of my favorite artists here so, but I think they're arguing apples and oranges. They're both good fruit, ya know? Sometimes I feel like an apple, sometimes an orange, and sometimes a friggin bratwurst.
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Jesse Adams
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8/7/2009 9:49:54 PM
I've rambled on about this subject before so I'll try and keep this short.
Production is not everything... it's only one factor in making music. However, it's absolutely ridiculous IMHO to act like music production doesn't matter. I'm aware that everyone can't get their hands on the proper tools needed for decent recordings. I'm also aware that you don't need much to sound good if you know what you're doing. I use two pieces of equipment to produce/record with. Two. A DAW, and a CD burner.
Steve Ison said, "I really hope the 'balanced' dispassionate criteria you're advocating doesn't come into play..Thats not how people instinctively respond to music-so it wouldn't be honest..."
I took that as him saying people don't instinctively react to production quality and/or the performance quality of the piece, which is the craziest damn thing I've ever heard.
"Ya know boys, this song sounds terrible. The dude can't sing and it sounds like he's played guitar for about 2 weeks... man it's great! I love indie music! You just can't get that kind of passion through to the listener with all that fancy production in the way."
For the record I'm not putting myself on a pedestal because I have decent production in my corner. I realize how fortunate I am.
I broke the rules, there's my drawn out rebuttal.
Your turn.
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Jesse Adams
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8/7/2009 9:54:21 PM
I forgot to mention, Bryon, you're a great guy and one of my biggest supporters here. I really appreciate and am very grateful for your station adds and reviews. You know that.
You too Phlegm, and anybody else that takes the time to listen to my dispassionate criteria.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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8/7/2009 9:59:37 PM
---- Updated 8/7/2009 10:10:25 PM
Jessie,
Its hard to know what someone means on the internet, often times it is open to interpretation...and becuase we are all wired to react quickly sometimes the intent is lost.
My interpretation is Steve meant the Judges should vote for what they like, and not get to clinical. By all means, people like what sounds good so production will always be integral in my opinion. I think what he means by "dispassionate criteria" is not get locked into criteria alone, and keep the passionate, human side involved. They should like the song as well. For example, they should not fall into this scenario: "I don't like this, but it is sure recorded well and they are good musicians so I should vote for it"
I would add, for this to work the judging panel should be diverse and like many styles of music. Subjectivity can kill art, and it rarely works. Its ok to like what you like, but it is not fair to those that may fall outside your musical world.
I could be all wrong with my interpretation by the way, I wish we could all be in one room with guitars and Beers :) We would really get to know each other, and I suspect we would all like one another.
Regards,
Jeff
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Jesse Adams
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8/7/2009 11:26:37 PM
Why would I ever expect people to support music they didn't like?
If you are to be considered a judge in a contest, it'd supposed to mean you are judging the contestants based on a certain set of guidelines, or as Steve likes to call it, dispassionate criteria. It's what makes you a JUDGE. LISTENERS can vote very subjectively and vote for terrible stuff they like all day long. Otherwise, what's the point of even having judges if they aren't going to judge? I would like to think they will judge based on tunes they dig, but in that vote I would expect that performance and production would be considered. Crazy, I know.
BTW Jeff you know I love you but there is no damn "i" in my name bro.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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8/7/2009 11:41:16 PM
Sorry Jesse I know that...My Bad...., Its that girl Jessie that has been running around the Halls getting frustrated with Holo. :)
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Auset
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8/10/2009 4:57:06 PM
jesse... you rock! indie is such a confused idea. self-made doesn't have to mean sonic suck.
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Jesse Adams
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8/10/2009 5:08:40 PM
Haha, Auset. :) I totally agree. Good to see you btw, you seem to stay pretty busy these days... good for you!
Jeff, no worries my man... you've been spelling my name with an "i" since I got here so I finally had to give you a hard time about it. I wasn't trying to be a dick. :P
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Conversation Suicide
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8/10/2009 11:14:34 PM
---- Updated 8/11/2009 12:12:21 AM
No doubt. Production is DAMN important.
That's one of the reasons YOUR music goes down so SMOOTH, Jesse.
-luv,
The Reluctant King of Lo-Fi/ ear-strain tuneage....
*********************** CONTEST ALERT !!!!!!! ******************************
YO IT's 12:12am on August 11th, 2009 in IAC LAND -
The projected bewitching hour for starting ROUND 2 voting....
I'm ready to phreakin' VOTE - how 'bout y'all????
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Bryon Tosoff
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8/11/2009 12:18:05 AM
---- Updated 8/11/2009 12:21:47 AM
yo , Phlegm right on,. already that day and time....ok lets go, is it ready to go on the voting part....lets see
nothin yet ...give a few more hours...or day
check back tomorrow morning
gotta make mo money , little gigola with serious bread happening
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Steve Ison
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8/11/2009 1:40:12 AM
---- Updated 8/11/2009 2:01:10 AM
To Jesse...Why so aggressive? lol
You completely misunderstood me
All i said was that i hoped the judges voted for what they genuinelly loved-i mentioned nothing about the sound or saying they should vote for only scratchy lo-fi stuff or whatever-...That rant was just your own defensiveness or personal issue with me or something-and had nothing to do with what i actually said or meant.
Since what someone likes musically is obviously based to at least some degree on the 'sound' of something, i take that as a given it'd be a conscious or unconscious factor in voting for what they genuinely love.. ..
I presume many of the judges will be those that personally choose the Big 50 tracks here anyway,most of which are 'professionally' recorded/performed in the way you want taken into consideration.. ..
The sound quality you speak of is a totally subjective thing anyway ..Many modern cut-glass clear recordings for instance quantised,auto-tuned and digitalised to within an inch of their life sound incredibly sterile and lifeless imo-so don't represent sound "quality" to me at all,tho i know to many they do..
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Bob Elliott
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8/11/2009 2:02:15 AM
Well, I like that the contest has more people listening.
This contest, like most others I've seen, has this element where you need to rally all your people to come and vote, and you yourself kinda need to vote for yourself as often as you can.
There's no way I'll be doing any of that. Some will, some won't, but if you do, clearly you'll rise more than if you don't. But that isn't about quality of music.
It's about motivation, friendship, persistence...
But I don't want to do any of that.
Still, I guess a song could be so great that it could do well without the author rallying anyone...
I think that's the kind of song I wanna put out. The kind that will fight its own battles.
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Sly Witt
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8/11/2009 4:29:36 AM
I likewise didn't do any promotion but had a few tunes that I THINK did pretty good but then I had the horrible thought that maybe I was looking at the chart upside down, ya know? LOL..that would suck. I DID give myself and some others a vote most every day.
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Richard Scotti
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8/11/2009 5:15:04 AM
Phlegm - voting has been delayed until Aug 13th
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Bob Elliott
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8/11/2009 6:03:05 AM
I don't mean it's the only way to the top.
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8/11/2009 11:53:52 AM
WOW, this is sure the topic of discusion.
The contest is really a way to have a chance to hear music that really is not available to everyone. I feel it is a touch of sunshine in a gloomy world to have this oppertuinity. I myself have trouble listening to mainstream and I am sure everyone on here feels the same way. knowing that and hearing all this great music from all areas makes me sure that we are all winners.
Play what you feel, not what your told.
~~~_/)~~~ Beach Bum Pirate ~~~_/)~~~
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satch
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8/11/2009 12:01:44 PM
Steve said "..Many modern cut-glass clear recordings for instance quantised,auto-tuned and digitalised to within an inch of their life sound incredibly sterile and lifeless imo-so don't represent sound "quality" to me at all,tho i know to many they do.."
I guess that's because many of the recordings you refer to are major label products and so many major label artists are completely manufactured anyway... I don't think that there are many independant artists who fall into that category.
But, at the same time, the better one's production is, the more chance your work has of appealing to a broader cross-section of people... even lofi devotees can appreciate a good song that is well produced, clean and clear, but the opposite does not, imho, hold true - lofi work is not so easy for the general listening public to appreciate!
And yes, great contest, thanks for the music and the votes!!!
Peace!
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Bryon Tosoff
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8/11/2009 4:32:20 PM
Jesse's Topic is garnering a lot of interest here and is probably one of the most viewed subjects on music in a long time..
good to see this continue as many more people get involved and post their ideas feelings and thoughts.
bryon
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Phlegm
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8/11/2009 4:41:34 PM
Wow -- point taken Bryon -- he's gonna break 1000 views for this blog pretty soon.
Satch: You're right on the money. If you want to broaden your listenership, you've GOTTA find a way to release as many tunes as possible, with the best production available to you.
For MANY of the non-lo-fi fans out there, it's a difference between TURNING off the song, or walking away, or slapping the artist, within the first 5 seconds of aural assault.
I probably shouldn't be so flippant with putting up as many LIVE (lo-fi) tunes as I have on IAC. But that's just my hopeful side coming out.
"they've heard the well-produced and somewhat well-recorded me.... maybe their open enough now to hear the RAW me & what I'd LIKE to get done in the studio...if I had the money".
BOTTOMLINE: Many people WON'T give a well crafted tune the time of day, without that production factor being in place.
But that being said --Here's hopin' that 50-60% of the judges are willing to look past imperfect production!!!
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Jesse Adams
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8/11/2009 9:06:38 PM
To Bob and Satch, excellent points and posts. :)
I just want to say that I had to talk myself into responding to Steve because I know it's probably not worth the effort or time it will take to type this, but here goes...
First of all, I have no personal issues with you Steve, I don't even know you. What you originally posted was pretty clear, not much to misunderstand.
Now here's some examples of why I know I'm wasting my time as I write, via Steve...
"That rant was just your own defensiveness or personal issue with me or something-and had nothing to do with what i actually said or meant."
"The sound quality you speak of is a totally subjective thing anyway"
Thanks for the clarification Steve, now I have reasoning for my crazy, wild-eyed thoughts... I apparently didn't know, warranting an explanation.
It's obvious Steve thinks my thoughts on production are merely subjective rants that mean nothing (and maybe they are), therefor he would never take the time to actually sit down and listen to what I'm saying or give me any credit. He's already got it figured out.
It wasn't personal to begin with, but he's working on it, haha.
Production is like anything, it becomes gross if it's abused. Quantization and auto-tune and things of that nature mostly apply to Top 40 bullshit which we should all know is crap by now anyways. I view production as not only a necessary part of the music making process, but as a tool available to me to make my recordings sound as good as I can get them too... and it's fun. I enjoy mixing, and effects, and EQ's and all that. It's all part of it IMO, and can definitely contribute to a song, believe it or not. It can make a good song great, but it can also hurt a song if it's overused OR ignored. It's a skill and it's a big part of RECORDING whether anyone here likes that or not.
I've said this before and I'll say it again, you don't have to spend a bunch of money in a studio to get quality recordings either. This is an old fashioned notion that does not hold true anymore. Buy some inexpensive gear and take the time to learn a bit and do it yourself.
And that, ladies and gentlemen, concludes meaningless Rant #2.
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Bryon Tosoff
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8/11/2009 9:18:34 PM
Jesse lays it out. Man you sure are running your mouth er I mean your thoughts and posts and the enjoyment I get from it is considerable.because it is so well presented....now you have elevated my expectations of what you do here at these blogs Jesse, WELL DONE DUDE, but is this any different from the care and attention you put into your music, no, what you are saying here is very carefully laid out and cleverly presented..just like your bloody good rocking out music which I so enjoy
........this is the best blog ever IMO, it will never end...and on it goes...nice one bro
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the perfect banana
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8/11/2009 10:27:11 PM
Production standards do vary a lot with each producer and each artist passing judgment. I've seen songs described as perfect productions by one critic and poorly produced by another. I know a producer who loves their latest song one day and hates it the next based on the way the ears seem to change temperment. :D
There's several indies from more prominent indie labels who get a lot of national airplay whose production values are worse than most pipeliners' efforts. I know a number of artist/producers who are very proud and self-satisfied with their work whose songs just don't interest me because they just aren't developed as songwriters. I also know fine performers who have superb production whose songs leave me cold.
I think there's a certain threshold of bad production you must get past to have a worthwhile song, but I also think there's a lot of over-the-top snobbery by producers who listen not to enjoy music but in a competitive way looking for flaws. Many of them don't focus at all on lyrics or melody so they have no idea how unlistenable their masterful productions can be.
At the same time there are artists who take production so lightly you end up muttering insults under your breath because they're so foolish for putting that dung out there for people to listen to.
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Bryon Tosoff
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8/11/2009 10:37:04 PM
that Damn Banana is surprising me as much as Jesse...that is another insightful post , very clear and well presented....i didnt think Banana's could be so well versed in anything much besides putting them on cereal.
thank you Banana, i will have to take you out to lunch : )
bryon
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Jesse Adams
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8/11/2009 11:30:57 PM
I probably sound a bit dicky and I'm not really trying to... I'm just trying to be completely straight up and not hold back. I think I've realized I've held a lot back over the years and not really been completely honest in social situations about my feelings on certain subjects. I guess the pipeline is a good place to get some of that out. So, pardon my, uh, brashness at times.
I think some of the producers banana speaks of are the guys that are disconnected from music and only view it as a product. "Producers" in every sense of the word. Maybe it's no wonder I tend to enjoy artists and bands that produce themselves. They look at the music first and probably aren't worried about album sales, formulas or hooks very much.
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Jesse Adams
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8/11/2009 11:32:01 PM
---- Updated 8/11/2009 11:34:58 PM
Good post banana.
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Jesse Adams
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8/11/2009 11:32:17 PM
Thanks Bryon, but best blog ever? Boy I don't know man, that's a big statement. ;)
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Bryon Tosoff
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8/11/2009 11:34:43 PM
---- Updated 8/11/2009 11:37:50 PM
you can say that again..
..hey jesse, nice recovery....er edit
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Richard Scotti
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8/11/2009 11:44:58 PM
---- Updated 8/12/2009 12:07:08 AM
Some folks phone their music in and hope to get over, and some do their homework and get an "A". It's all about work ethic. Your music will sound as good as the respect you have for yourself and the respect you have for the listener. Anyone can make a decent recording with minimal equipment if they try hard enough. It depends how the equipment is used and of course it helps to be able to play an instrument pretty well and keep it in tune. But if you don't play well and you don't practice enough and you don't get better at recording, and mixing, then you can always make excuses like: "people should be able to hear a great song even if the recording sucks" or "people should hear with their hearts, not their critical ears". Those are two of many excuses that are often used. I prefer to make "no excuses music".
It also helps to have good song to start with. I want to make it clear that even the best sonic recording can't turn a bad song into a good one. But a good song can get lost with a lousy recording.
I would never present music to the public that I wasn't proud of as far as content and sonic quality. It doesn't take a million bucks to make a good recording. It just takes a modest amount of gear and a lot of passion and hard work. No recording has to be perfect but it has to pass certain minimal standards in order to be taken seriously. (imo)
If people are going to take the time to listen to my work then I have a responsibility to give them the best I am capable of and not try to convince them that shit is really gold.
(None of my comments are directed at anyone in particular)
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Jesse Adams
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8/11/2009 11:45:16 PM
One last little thing.
I'm not talking about using production to enhance performance. That should already be there... there is no substitute for real heart, or soul, or execution. You have to have those things to have good music to begin with. I'm mostly talking about using production to enhance the audio quality and sound of the actual tracks and instruments and whatnot. And for me, effects can become part of the creative process itself.
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Jesse Adams
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8/11/2009 11:46:42 PM
I figured the edit was better than a double post Bryon.
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Bryon Tosoff
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8/11/2009 11:50:32 PM
I done double posts many times Jesse,....except you recovered better then most of us who have been guilty of it,nice one
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Jeff Allen Myers
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8/11/2009 11:53:58 PM
---- Updated 8/11/2009 11:54:53 PM
The most important ingredient in this discussion is Talent, it has to be there first. Talent to write, play, and sing. There is also talent involved on the production end...It's not quite as easy as it is being made out here..
Just thought I would throw that out there..... ya know...to keep it real :) But mostly I just wanted to contribute further to "The Best Blog ever" :)~
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Night Krawler Blues
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8/12/2009 12:49:53 AM
hey, the more spinach you eat the better crap you get.and it goes out smooth just like..the more you practice your chops on your instrument(s) of choice the better you'll get at the crap you play, the more you study about production and learn it you will improve and produce. smooth stuff too, thats all I got to say, I am what I am....I think
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