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Tom O'Brien
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10/21/2012 4:55:54 PM
Tom gets heavy
This new song is a bit more energetic than most of my stuff. I know I need a real drummer and a tighter band, for that matter, but it was fun to get a little angsty on the chorus. Too bad I can't scream. My voice just will not do it. Where's Kurt Cobain when you need him? It's about an old relationship. It's funny how certain relationships, no matter how brief they might have been, keep being fodder for new music.
Some Years Before I Met You
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Stoneman
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10/21/2012 7:17:20 PM
I love the lyrical ideas you have going in this song. Your lyrics are always ideas that haven't been around the block over and over again. Great concept Tom. True to life experiences and perspectives always seem to translate into some very thrilling songs. I like the whole arrangement of this song especially the bridge. Great vocals and musicianship.
Respect,
Stoneman
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Richard Scotti
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10/22/2012 5:28:59 PM
---- Updated 10/22/2012 5:33:02 PM
I love the music on this one. I think sometimes you put more thought into your lyrics than you do with your music but not in this case. The chorus is outstanding and more structured than usual. Overall, your production skills have improved greatly. The groove is more in the pocket and it feels right.
The lyrics are a little more literal than what you usually do and that has it's pros and cons. Most of the lines are good but there are some cliches that really stand out like the one about watering love so that it will grow, just to name one. But I only mention this because I know you set a very high lyrical bar for yourself and for others, so one should practice what he preaches. Most of the lyrics are honest and poetic and I'm only pointing out a couple of problems because I know how much you appreciate being honest with others as well as receiving honesty from them.
In general, the overall score for this song is very high in my opinion. You are consistently getting better and better and your voice has always been authentically real and emotionally evocative. Your songs are deep and the subject matter is always filled with longing and a desire for love and truth.
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Chandra Moon
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10/23/2012 6:53:37 AM
Great track - love the middle phase! I think the vocals could be a tad up in the mix (or the bass down a bit not sure which) but overall really good song!
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Tom O'Brien
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10/23/2012 8:35:48 PM
Thanks Stoneman, Richard, and Chandra, I can always count on you for real opinions.
You're right, Richard, lyrics took a back seat on this song, which is unusual for me. I'm glad you have the courage to call me on my sub-par lyrics! But I've been playing with melody a lot lately and playing some old standards, so I'm definitely paying attention to the music more right now. Now if I can just get it all into one package. I started this song with a heavily distorted guitar - I'm talking, like, death-metal. It was a bit much, but it made me realize that I don't put that much angst in my songs. I never went through the angst stage - I've always been pretty mellow.
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Richard Scotti
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10/24/2012 8:36:24 AM
---- Updated 10/28/2012 10:02:43 AM
The lyrics are NOT sub-par. Don't throw out the baby with the bath water! Most of the lyrics are fine except for just a couple of lines. The words in general are the right match for the music. Country songs need country lyrics, Rock songs need rock lyrics, etc. etc. Of course the lyrics should always be good no matter what style they are in but different musical genres have different criteria for the what the words should be in terms of their level of complexity. You tend to want to write very complex, ambiguous, multi-leveled, intellectual words ala Bob Dylan. That's great! But those kinds of words do not fit every musical genre. I admire that you did try to adjust your words to fit the music in this instance and perhaps you are judging them too harshly because they aren't what you're used to writing but I thought they were a refreshing change of pace from some of your earlier lyrics. A couple of cliches here and there does not make all the words "sub-par". Those lines can always be tweaked. Most of the other words are totally appropriate for the music, with good imagery, feeling and poetry as well as directness and universality. Not every lyric one writes has to be cryptic and enigmatic. Sometimes it's beautiful just to say what you mean and mean what you say. Sometimes the music can carry the ball
when it comes to intellectual gravity. It's the marriage of music and words that makes a song work. There's a place for simplicity in words and there's a place for complexity. The trick is to match up the right words with the right music. And don't worry about "angst". One doesn't have to scream to convey emotional pain. Your voice contains plenty of angst (imo)
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Tom O'Brien
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10/26/2012 8:16:22 PM
Wow, Rich! It says an awful lot about your personal level of commitment to music that you would take the time to re-write someone else's lyrics. Sometimes it is easier to be an outsider when looking at lyrics. When you're all wrapped up in them it's like a great sexual experience where you kind of lose yourself.
This song is full of little vocal calisthenics where I tried to match one syllable per one note. Sometimes that makes things awkward. The Beatles were so good at not doing that - "hand" in "I Want to Hold Your Hand" has 7 syllables in that one place.
I'm still experimenting when it comes to writing songs. I've been experimenting for an awfully long time and am still learning new things about music and about myself. That may be why I don't have a set "sound." Good for those people who find their sound at an early age, but I think as we go through life, we should always allow our sound to speak to us and not try to control it. We are constantly changing and so is our music.
You know lyrics are important to me. I've written a handful of songs where I just love every word, but there is no "perfect" in lyric writing, there's just closer to the truth. You can feel when lyrics are contrived and when they're genuine. Sometimes I fall into column A and sometimes into column B.
I know you understand when I tell you that, although I appreciate your efforts, I've got to sing it my way, imperfect as it may be. Every song is like a snapshot of the musician you are at any given time. If I were recording for commercial reasons, I'd be more likely to use song doctors, but that's not where I'm at. I'm just searching for my own musical truth. And your suggestions are helping me see where that truth is and where it falls short.
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Richard Scotti
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10/27/2012 12:49:18 AM
---- Updated 10/27/2012 12:57:09 AM
I'm glad you have a positive attitude about this, Tom because I was really worried that you would be pissed at me or feel that I'm presumptuous in my efforts to help you, but I do have a personal level of commitment to music and I only take the time to suggest changes in a song free of charge when I believe in the songwriter and when he or she is truly a diamond in the rough as in your case. I often get paid requests for help which I reject because I simply don't relate to the songwriter or his/her music. To me, music is a sacred thing and when I truly feel a song, I feel the need to do what I think the song is asking me to do even if the songwriter doesn't request it. Of course, that doesn't happen outside this forum and I only took the liberty of trying it here because you and I and others have built of up a level of trust, but I will refrain from doing that in the future if I'm not asked. I got carried away by the song and I apologize. I didn't realize that you were not writing for commercial reasons. The people who ask for my help usually want to go to the next level and get a song published but I totally understand that you are still searching for your sound and that you did not ask for my help. I'm not a song doctor. I just like helping artists because so many have mentored me over the years so it's my way of giving back. Even with the words I wrote, you could still sing them the way you want.
You said you like to experiment so maybe you should give the new words a try. As I mentioned, I was not trying to change your vision or toy with the art of your work. The changes were purely technical and based on song writing basics like changing the tires on a car that keep the car the same but make it possible to go places.
But in any case, case closed. I hope someday you find your true sound and that you enjoy the journey of getting there. Over the years I went through wrenching changes in my own work, but it was painful and I was in denial for a number years as to my strengths and weaknesses and understanding what they were. I didn't accept good advice when it was given and I wasted valuable time in the process until I finally saw the light. I gave up my ego and my insecurities and devoted myself to my craft while recognizing that some of the advice I got was good and some wasn't. It was only when I solidified my skills and my personality into one confident package that I was able to know when to take advice and when to reject it. I too am not into music for "commercial" reasons. I've rejected many an offer because it wasn't true to my vision. Of course, I have to make a living, but when it comes to music, I must be true to myself at all times and I totally understand that you have to stay true to yourself too. I had many opportunities to "sell out" for commercial success but never did and I never will. I love the art part.
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Chandra Moon
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10/27/2012 2:38:47 AM
---- Updated 10/27/2012 2:43:33 AM
So interesting to read this thread. A lot to learn and appreciate. One of the things I noticed is to try and not use repeated words in a song (I don't mean like a chorus). I could so relate to both the tweaked words and the original and if it was me there are one or two things I would probably change even if you don't want to take on all the new words. I used to go to a brilliant songwriting group where we would suggest things to each other and sometimes we'd take them on board and sometimes not. I don't think it detracts in any way from a song to edit the lyrics later. I also know that some songs come from somewhere, almost channelled through and even if the song doesn't make sense you feel you have to leave the words alone. My song At The Healing Tree is a case in point.
Songwriting is forever a fascinating craft and I just love it. I just wish I'd get some new songs come along but it's been ages since I wrote a new one.
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Richard Scotti
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10/27/2012 12:52:26 PM
Very insightful comment, Chandra, as always. Even without the new words that I added, the song could still benefit from some of the words that were taken out like repetitions of the words "to me", "nothing in the world," "broken" dreams and "broken" heart etc. I'm a stickler for avoiding stuff like that but I want to make it clear that there is no right or wrong way. It's all subjective and I only offer my opinions in an attempt to help. I find doing that more interesting than folks just saying they have a gig somewhere. Tom has his own way of doing things and I respect that. I don't always agree with some parts of his reviews of my songs but I respect his right to say those things. That's the beauty of individualism in art.
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Tom O'Brien
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10/28/2012 2:25:33 PM
I just think it's so cool that something I wrote has engaged at least two people in the world, and I hope more, to give it a second look. Sometimes I write things and they just drift off with the wind, and even I don't remember them.
As far as being commercial goes, Richard, I suppose that's a loaded word. Sure, I would like more than anything to be making a living from music alone, but what works in the music world doesn't always work for me. I have a hard time staying on one radio station these days. It seems like there is so much mediocre music out there, and worse. I sometimes feel slighted as a songwriter when I hear something that obviously had a lot of good production behind it, but is not passionate, imaginative or original. I think people are easily cowed into letting other people tell them what to listen to. I'm glad we have places like IAC where one can be true to their muse and not feel the need to always be pleasing someone else.
I think the music to this song works on several levels, and I'll have to give the lyrics some more thought. I'll try and do an alternative track with your words, Rich, just to see how they sing. Who knows, maybe this song will work better - it's just a matter of finding the right phrasing with less syllables to work with.
Chandra and Richard (and so many others), I consider IAC a place of friends, and as far as I'm concerned, friends can say anything to each other and there won't be hard feelings. I have a pretty strong ego which can withstand quite a bit of criticism. I know most people here want to see others succeed, and this forum wouldn't be worth much if there wasn't some good criticism along with the praise.
As I get older, (I'm 49! Jeez!) I see that music is just another aspect of the mind that I've been working on all my life. A three minute song is a pretty limited field in which to say much at all. But it is just so much fun! Recently I thought of a great songwriting challenge: write your life's story in a three minute song. How do you sum up a lifetime's worth of experience in so short a time? We do it with relationships that sometimes lasted years. What would the chorus to your life sound like? The song would necessarily be cryptic and general, but what music could you possibly write that would act as a soundtrack to your life? I don't think I could ever do this, but it's an interesting idea.
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Richard Scotti
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10/29/2012 9:45:37 AM
---- Updated 10/29/2012 9:53:03 AM
Great post, Tom! (great thread too, thanks to all who participated. And yes, your song started it all. Yes, "commercial" is an ambiguous word. Of course you'd like to make a living through music but I understand that you want to do it on your own terms.
That being said, there's no harm in trying to get one song published or covered as a way of getting that proverbial "foot in the door". It isn't all or nothing. It's a song by song journey.
You've come a long way over time, Tom. I'm honored that you would consider trying my suggestions. I hope they work out. If not, there's always the original to go back to.
(Ain't modern recording grand) Keeping an open mind is they key to creativity.
As far as production: A good production will not turn a bad song into a good one.
But a bad production can turn a good song into a seemingly bad one. It's a subliminal thing. The mind and the ear are more pleased by instruments in tune, a beat in the pocket, passionate vocals, etc than it is without those elements. But a good song can still shine with just vocals and guitar or vocals and piano but certain productions values still apply. Performance contains it's own elements of production. A poor performance is a poor production. But in the end, it's all about the song. The right words with the right music is the tool box. How you use the tools will determine if the song makes the right impact. A song is like an interview. You go to the interview dressed appropriately. It immediately makes the interviewer comfortable and receptive to what you have to say. Dress up your songs and people will take notice!
I think your idea about writing an autobiography in a song is a brilliant idea! At the moment it does seem like an impossible task but I will certainly give it a try if it comes together. I have been struggling to finish my new CD which has taken some strange twists and turns and is long overdue, so that's my first priority. A totally autobiographical song will require much time and effort but it's a great idea and I promise to give it all the thought it deserves. Thanks for the inspiration! These are the kinds of threads I really crave. Why are we here if not to learn and inspire?
PS When I used certain examples of negative elements in production and songwriting I was speaking generally and not referring to your songs. Your production and arrangement skills have improved
dramatically and of course, your voice is aways on the money.
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Bob Elliott
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10/29/2012 7:38:37 PM
I want to know why you rarely hold any notes out in your singing anymore. The words keep coming and coming, and you have such a cool toned voice I often want you to just hold out some notes.
I don't know if that is of any use to you, it's just the thing that came to me as I listened.
But anyway, It's a good middle 8 right on time and a catchy song. Parker heard it and said I like that guy, who is that guy? I said it's Tom O'Brien.
Like the weird dissonant guitar work underneath.
Just kept feeling like a chorus bursting out with some held notes was coming, like the relative major to the minor, although your verse is already major.
Like one word held out three counts with force. Kept feeling on the verge of that sort of thing.
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Tom O'Brien
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10/29/2012 9:08:38 PM
Hey Bob, I think that because lately I've been writing melodies on the violin a lot and since I'm not very good yet, I tend to sound best with a lot of eighth notes instead of holding out long, beautiful, luxurious notes, which takes good bowing technique, which I don't have. I've been listening to a lot of classical music too, and when there's no words, the notes have to be really interesting. So I think I'm writing some pretty cool melodies right now, but maybe they don't show off my vocal tone very well. They sure sound good on my Charlie Brown violin, though. I appreciate your telling me what sounds good with my voice, because honestly, I'm just not very good at knowing what sounds good and what doesn't. I can do a lot of different things with my voice, but I'm just not sure what sounds good to other people. Weird, huh? I'll try not to be so wordy. I always feel like I've got so much to say. Maybe I can say it more effectively with fewer, but well-chosen, words.
Yeah, Richard, the Pipeline needs more threads where people actually talk about the mechanics of music. It's what we all work with all the time. I think we can be great resources for each other. By the way, I have made some efforts to pitch some of my songs to people in film and TV, but no luck yet. I think my production is much better, but still has a ways to go for those avenues. I hear a lot of so-so music in films, but it is always great production. Sometimes you can fool people into thinking a song is good just because you got the sound of what everybody else is doing.
I'm going to be moving to the San Francisco Bay Area in January, and I intend to connect with some good musical friends (including Bob Elliott, who's just a few hundred miles from there). I think next year is going to be a big one for me. I'm not sure how yet, but I'm a natural optimist. I was listening to some of my old, poorly recorded songs today and thinking I might like to give some of them new life with better arrangements and recording. Sometimes the arrangement was really cool, but it wasn't well mixed or eq'd or I didn't use the right guitar tone or whatever. I've got a ton of material and I think it would be a shame if good songs got passed by because of technical issues.
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Chandra Moon
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10/30/2012 7:26:32 AM
I look forward to hearing them Tom as ever!
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