5/26/2009 4:39:04 PM
Replaced a Song

5/19/2009 5:17:42 PM
Chord Progressions

5/16/2009 1:55:52 AM
Song Structure

5/13/2009 5:03:36 PM
Censorship offends me.

5/13/2009 12:18:02 AM
IAC Mastering

5/16/2009 1:55:52 AM

Song Structure
I would like to get each and everyone’s opinion on song structure. What are your views on the ABAB structure or the ABAABB song structure?

Part of me feels music and art should be organic and free! That putting structure and constraints on them is limiting and oppressive. However; the other part of me can’t reject that a song with great structure and flow is undeniably intriguing and gratifying.

One style of music I can listen to and care less about structure is storytelling songs. But with the more genres specific it sounds the more my subconscious desires the structure.

So again what are your opinions on the subject and what do you prefer in your own music?

Past Post?

5/16/2009 2:35:14 AM ---- Updated 5/16/2009 2:37:43 AM

I'm just a no rules kind of guy ... I don't hold structure as bad, but I only use it when it falls into place in my non-structured world ...

5/16/2009 2:40:30 AM

"Part of me feels music and art should be organic and free! That putting structure and constraints on them is limiting and oppressive. However; the other part of me can’t reject that a song with great structure and flow is undeniably intriguing and gratifying."

I agree with both parts of this paragraph. Some songs need structure, or a formula... some songs work without it. I've been DJing on a country music station lately, and I must say, I find all the songs boring as hell structure wise... I know what's going to happen before I even hear it... because they are all formulated and structured the same way... not to mention modern country music blows ass.

That's why I like progressive music, because it flows to and from different parts, and you never know where it's going to go which invites much intrigue in my mind. Like a musical journey if you will... but it's always nice to have those few reoccurring parts to establish a common theme... maybe a chorus, or a melody.

5/16/2009 3:50:58 AM ---- Updated 5/16/2009 3:53:13 AM

Even hours long symphonies have structure.

Having taught small children, I know that structure helps us comprehend. You are right that simple, cliche structures can be distracting - I find 12 bar blues monotonous because of that. Everyone likes to be surprised once in awhile. So you can have structure and still have innovation.

Good lyrics, chord choices and rhythms can supersede structure issues. If you're relying on structure to carry a song, it better be a damned interesting structure.

Think of architecture. There are a million ways to build a house, but ultimately it's got to have a ceiling, a floor, doors,windows, and walls of some kind.

I think if you are an avant-garde composer then these days you could probably get away with lack of structure.

But structure helps you understand what a song is trying to say. If I sing a verse one way and then the next verse another, then people aren't going to make the intuitive leaps I want them to.

There have been tons of ABAB songs that have said profound and beautiful things.

Structure is a challenge because it makes you work harder. You have to take abstract, formless ideas and emotions and fit them into some kind of suit that fits them. That's the thrill of great songwriting.

Without song structure, it might as well just be poetry to a psychedelic jam.

5/16/2009 4:22:24 AM

What a brilliant summary, Tom - covers all the bases!

5/16/2009 9:19:53 AM

I am a huge fan of having a verse, chorus and a MIDDLE 8. I also think it's over the top if I can get an intro and outro in the deal. That is top notch to have all those.

If you follow my work at all, you know that's not what happens frequently, but I think it's a beautiful thing to do when it goes that way.

Nevertheless, songs can come on strong sometimes lacking other parts and sometimes you just feel like they don't want any more. Sometimes they don't.

I guess I shoot for three parts and I might put them together oddly, but I like three parts if it doesn't sound forced.

Really big on a middle eight that is its own animal just as good as the rest of the song, but truly different.

Those things are wonderful.

But I've been known to just trip out making noise while changing the speed over backward tape sounds...

Pretty sure Tom was right beside me pulling on the string of one of those kid toys that would keep asking "Do you hear the frog?'

Do you, do you, do you hear the, do you hear the frog...?

But you gotta imagine the echoes...

5/16/2009 10:00:08 AM

"I am a huge fan of having a verse, chorus and a MIDDLE 8. I also think it's over the top if I can get an intro and outro in the deal. That is top notch to have all those."

My last tune has all those Bob :)

"Bye Bye Lullaby"

Intro, Verse, Verse, Chorus, Verse,Chorus, Middle 8, Verse, extended Chorus, Outro

All wrapped in a nice little bow :)

5/16/2009 11:47:34 AM

I never consciously set out with any kind of structure in mind though I often end up with one. For me it's whatever feels right.

5/16/2009 6:00:14 PM

I agree with Fxyxxyxyxyyxyy and Laree :)

I never set out with a structure in mind, for example AABABA. I don't write to a preconceived structure, the song takes me where ever it wants to go. The subconscious is full of information gleamed over years of songwriting with trial and error. Even though their is not "conscious" thought, the subconscious is taking the wheel many times...

5/16/2009 10:19:19 PM

I think while the human brain can recognize and appreciate recognizable, repeating "patterns". It is just as capable of appreciating the "abstraction", the variations, or even the absence of such when we can identify it as an intended result or even random chaos,

For instance, I myself am often complimented by people who note that my music, and particularly my singing; is not constrained by the tiresome, typical, cliched repeating "patterns" found in so much other music.

Yanno, ...like "song structures",

...or "keys",

...or "rythym".

5/17/2009 12:15:35 AM

I write songs about things that inspire me. like spinach.I eat some spinach and right away out pops a song. I look at spinach and it I find that it is so beautiful I write a melody that just flows, then the lyrics start.
Spinach, Spinach how I love you,how I love you, my dear Spinach

pretty cool, never ceases to amaze me how these songs happen....

5/18/2009 9:12:51 PM

I like traditional song structures because they lend accessibility to songs. It's not always a bad thing to know what's coming, or at least to think you do. Sometimes I can listen to a 3 or 4 minute song with a predictable structure just one time and basically remember the entire thing. I can also know immediately whether I like it or not.

On the other end of the spectrum, if the song is meandering, with seemingly no musical idea relating to any other (Google "moment form" for this idea taken to the extreme), I have a hard time getting oriented and following the song, and it can take me forever to even remember enough of the song to form an opinion on it.

But if the music is really good, it can transcend form and get to you anyway. A really good song can pull you in on first listen to the point that you don't even realize what form it is, if any, until you go back and analyze it later.

And if the music is really boring or just average, like the guy above that works at a mainstream country station was talking about, and the structure is so painfully obvious that you can actually write song over again as you are listening, even to the point of predicting the lyrics based on the rhyme pattern. . . I'm not sure I had a point there; I just think it's funny when that happens. The structure of the song probably isn't the problem in that scenario. It just comes off that way if it seems like there isn't much else to the song.

Having a common familiarity with traditional song structure gives you an opportunity to go off on musical tangents without losing people. An extra bridge, or an extension or contraction of a verse, two part verses, maybe two or three prechoruses, etc. in an otherwise standard structural context really stand out.

5/19/2009 5:32:03 PM

Great Discussion!

As stated before a great song is only helped with a great structure. So how about we talk about the specific structure and it's parts. I am intrested in what parts and structure everyone is interested in. Maybe we can even go so far as all deciding on a certain structure and each making a song to that structure and sharing with each other. Group project starting here with structure than moving on to Progressions and than maybe a combined group collaboration!

What does everyone think about: Intro, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Chorus, Outro?

5/19/2009 6:15:33 PM

Sometimes songs just happen, inspiration . I trust my soul, spirit and natural musical ability to lead me to where they go, most songs i write are instrumentals as indicated in the other blog
I think my past training has a lot of do with it for me But saying that it is also coupled with a kinda spontaneity, a sort of natural process.

but others are just good due to their years of playing, studying other peoples work. getting ideas and just plain hard work. and maybe they are just fantastically talented and gifted......but I do think it takes effort energy and having a plan of attack
sometimes songs just happen, fall into place others take more time

there is my thoughts for the day
bye
bryon

5/19/2009 6:32:57 PM ---- Updated 5/19/2009 7:27:05 PM

I often use that song structure although sometimes I put in a third verse after the bridge in case more lyrical info is needed for the story as in a third act. I also like Intro, Verse/chorus/ bridge, Verse/chorus/bridge, chorus outo or verse/chorus outro.
The length of these sections is a factor in my decision making. I try to keep all my songs under 4:30 min with the average time being 3:20 to 4:15 min. I'm not big on long intros or other long sections. I try to keep things as lean as possible. If a section goes on too long and starts to bore me, I know it will bore other people. I try to evaluate my music as objectively as possible and put myself in the of place the listener who has never heard the song before. I like outros only if they build to a big climax and then fade out. In other instances I like creating interesting endings.

5/19/2009 7:24:40 PM ---- Updated 5/19/2009 7:25:49 PM

5/19/2009 7:35:18 PM

I'll be onto this group project as soon as I'm done updating my old songs. I like compositional exercises - they can lead to surprising things.

5/19/2009 8:37:16 PM

Ray said "I like compositional exercises - they can lead to surprising things."
=====================================================

Very True Ray, I use this principle sometimes when teaching advanced students and even younger children,mazing what it does for them and the instructor . in fact in doing so I have written three songs when illustrating the very thing you brought up. an idea, an exercise .kinda scary .

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