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Psyche's Muse
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3/1/2009 1:28:43 PM
To all of those NOT in favor of Capital Punishment I'd like to know:
Where do you stand on the "Abortion Issue"?
I am AGAINST abortion and was even an extremist in this view at one time. Yet, I have become more of a realist in my later years. I found that what it was I despised the most was the "dishonesty" used in the process. Women were being told that their baby was nothing more than "tissue" and that an abortion was akin to an appendectomy. Many of these women would later suffer severe psychological problems directly relating to their abortions. The truth of the matter is that a fetus is NOTHING LIKE the tissue of the mother's body. Her body would reject, attack and destroy that fetus if it weren't for the wondrous properties inherent in the umbilical chord. The fetus is in fact a FOREIGN OBJECT within the mother. This fetus is a SEPARATE HUMAN ENTITY within her. So, as much as I feel that abortion is despicable, I would have no problem with its legality so long as it was honestly dealt with in counseling. A woman should know that she is "MURDERING" her own child with an abortion. If, knowing this, she is willing to continue with the abortion so be it. The "sin" lies with her alone. I can "wash my hands" of the whole affair at that point. And I use the word "sin" because I believe that this act will forever "mark her soul" and affect her inner spirit. It may not do so in all cases, but the loss of family cannot be taken lightly in its potential far reaching repercussions. This fact if adequately dealt with beforehand would curtail the numbers of abortions performed without legislating it out of existence. This would also bring abortion in line with the many rulings where murders have been charged in the causing of death of an unborn child.
-M-
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Chris Hance
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3/1/2009 1:33:33 PM
I'm pro education
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3/1/2009 2:56:47 PM
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The Man With No Band
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3/1/2009 5:01:08 PM
---- Updated 3/1/2009 5:02:38 PM
Hello Mortamor .... I'll address this in two parts ...
First ... The death penalty ... I'm not really against the death penalty ... I'm against the system that implements it ... for it is WAY too flawed ... Prosecutors don't give a rat's ass whether those on trial are guilty or not ... they just want a conviction to further their own political agenda ... too many people are sitting in prison today that are only there because they were unable to prove they were innocent ...
I believe anyone who actually plans a murder (1st degree) or a rape, should receive the death penalty, the problem is our system is just too full of faults to make that practical ... So I cannot support the death penalty ... and no, it's not worth executing 1000 guilty parties if there is ONE not guilty party, who gets executed "by mistake" ...
Second ... Abortion ... It is NONE of my business ... I find it funny that the biggest part of those that argue against it, are the people that claim they don't want government interference in their lives ... but government is fine if it does what "THEY The Mighty Chosen ones" want ...
You cannot take every situation and lump it all in one package ... If a woman is raped and she had NO say so in the pregnancy, she should have the RIGHT to choose ... If a woman doesn't feel like she can keep the child for other reasons ... she should have the RIGHT to choose ... Our foster system should be a RED FLAG to all those who oppose abortion ... It is FULL of children who are abused on a daily basis ...
Bottom line ... all those people screaming about abortion should each adopt and take care of all the unwanted babies out there now ... if that happens, and until that happens and we know children are taken care of ... the woman should have the RIGHT to choose and everyone else should go get a life and worry about their own problems ...
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Psyche's Muse
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3/1/2009 5:01:09 PM
Good post, Sterling! I had no idea that over 80% of abortions were being coerced from mothers who otherwise would not have agreed to it. The Lies and the lying has got to STOP! And that means ACROSS THE BOARD and IN ALL THINGS... TELL THE TRUTH! Light comes into the world ONLY in this fashion. And when this is done the "blind" shall see and the "deaf" shall hear.
I find it worth mentioning that in the Bible there is a "slaughtering of babies" which signifys the appearance of both Moses and Messiah... hmmm?
-M-
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The Man With No Band
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3/1/2009 5:16:34 PM
I might add that those the most adamant about stopping abortion ... are usually the ones complaining about higher taxes and welfare ... child education and children's medical programs ....
They DEMAND that abortion stop ... but then COMPLAIN about the cost associated with unwanted children ...
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Psyche's Muse
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3/1/2009 6:02:15 PM
It is always good to hear from "The Man"...
We're eye to eye on "Right to Choose". And on the current Death Penalty being part of a "flawed system" I'll agree, but murderers and rapists are another matter altogether. The Death Penalty I propose is for those Thieving-Lying-Bastards who are responsible for the economic mess which we are now in. We needn't kill all the corrupt scumbags THIS time, but we should at the very least put into place something which shows the extraordinary magnitude of their position... something that gets their attention and places the FEAR OF GOD into any found to be in those sacred positions, so that they and any who may come after them would never want to take such risks ever again. In dealing with the current situation... Make them confess. Make them expose EVERYTHING. Name the names! Threaten them with death! There IS a "paper-trail". They used computers. Names are attached. Following the money shouldn't be very hard at all. There should be "no doubt" about their guilt in this scenario. Forgiveness would be the carrot, so long as they cooperate. If they refuse... killing would be the stick. Once the House is cleaned and purged a new crop will grow in conformity with the New Law of the Land where protection of currency and The Public Trust is held in high esteem and corruption is always dealt a deadly blow.
As for the rapists and child molesters(DNA evidence taken into account or repeat offenders) CASTRATED THEM! Maybe they could be rehabilitated after that. Murderers on the other hand may have had a perfectly good reason for their actions and therefore should be considered on a case by case basis as it formerly was done in this country(USA).
-M-
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The Man With No Band
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3/1/2009 6:39:49 PM
Great lines -M- ... but I think these people value power more than life ... I could definitely see a NO 2nd chance law being put into place for corruption ... Take what REALLY matters away from them ... get caught with your hands in the till and you are banned from government FOREVER ...
... and I do agree that murder sentences should be on a case by case basis ... and some common sense applied ...
Say your daughter was raped and you shot the bastard that did it ... I'd stop short of saying you deserved a medal, but your sentence shouldn't be lumped in with a guy who went out and raped and murdered someone elses daughter ...
Our whole system of justice needs an over-haul ... sentencing guide lines should be just that ... guidelines ... not all should be written in stone ...
but it should be made clear to those that are servants of the public, that is what their job is ... and any deviation from that should result in automatic banishment .. no excuses and no 2nd chances ... I think that would clear it up faster than the death penalty ...
Peace
Sam
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Vincenzo Pandolfi
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3/1/2009 9:39:24 PM
I think that Sam hit the nail on the head here: "... too many people are sitting in prison today that are only there because they were unable to prove they were innocent ..."
They should not have to prove themselves innocent, they are "INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY", but this seems to work only in theory, because in many cases the media portrays them as guilty and the prosecutors do exactly what Sam said. I have seen them in action. Unfortunately there are too many people out there who would rather risk sending an innocent person to jail than letting someone who might be guilty go free. In my humble opinion, too many juries do not meet the "Beyond reasonable doubt" criteria. After jurors have been on the jury for a while they just want to go home, and probably vote with the majority, to get it over with.
It is like many other systems, they are only as good as the people involved, so on this basis I am against applying the death penalty, because the risk of convicting an innocent person is just too high!
Vincenzo
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never never band
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3/2/2009 12:25:20 AM
---- Updated 3/2/2009 12:35:50 AM
Setting aside for a moment the intellectual dishonesty of starting a topic on "capital Punishment" and then going off on Abortion, as if it were a single subject.
ehem....
Really the issue of capital punishment is whether the State should have the power to Kill citizens as punishment .
You can say rapists and murderers and/or as you seem to think "economic sociopaths" deserve to die, but that's an incredibly juvenile oversimplification.
These people are sociopaths, they are severely mentally Ill and as such should be removed from society, but Killing them, Using the power of the state to murder is incredibly harmful to the rest of us, it undermines our basic goodness and sense of civics and justice and panders to our baser instincts, and it's a slippery slope, of the most dangerous sort. As is evidenced by the fact that you already want to move economic crimes into the capital punishment category.
When we kill as a means of punishment it starts a sort of moral attrition, it wears away at us, makes us that much smaller and crueler and cynical.
Capital Punishment has consistently been shown to have almost No effect as a deterrent because the people who commit such crimes are MENTALLY ILL and in have a self destructive side to begin with.
It costs more than incarceration, it puts medical and law professionals in the position of having to commit murder as part of their job, it assumes that the justice system and the discovery process are infallible...
Really I'm amazed that we continue to have this discussion.
It's disheartening.
As for mixing Capital Punishment and Abortion as if they were synonyms, it really shows a lack of discretion and distinction, and that very lack my be why you have such morbid contemplations...
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The Man With No Band
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3/2/2009 2:39:31 AM
Frater P ... I am against "almost" all capital punishment ... but not because it is or is not a deterrent ... all punishments need not serve as a deterrent, some need to serve as plain and simple punishment ...
Guys like Timothy McVeigh and Serial Killers and rapist are beyond "fixing" ... I couldn't care less about a human being being "mentally" ill, when he commits crimes like this ... my sympathies lay with the victims and their families ...
Are you implying that putting someone to "death" is barbaric in some manner ? ... How about locking someone up in a shit hole for the rest of their lives ? ... Is that not just as barbaric by your reasoning ? ...
How about you come home and find a man raping your wife as she lay there bleeding to death ... you think you'd say ... well, he was mentally ill, let's send him to a head doc and in a few years he'll probably be just fine ... MAYBE he won't hurt any other women ...
I don't buy it ... the fact that certain crimes, should be punishable by death, does not mean that is barbaric thinking ... on the contrary, I find it shows intelligence and can help in the healing process of the victims and give some peace to the masses that says "No one gets away with certain crimes" ... to hell with the poor little "sick" perpetrators ....
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Kevin White
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3/2/2009 2:45:36 AM
---- Updated 3/2/2009 2:47:16 AM
This is classic misdirection. It isn't about killing.
A murderer and mother are alive and a fetus is not yet born. The rights of the living and the rights of the unborn are very different.
There are simply different legal issues associated with both.
Just my two ... and that's as far as I'm taking it on a bbs. There have been literal libraries written about the difference, and a bbs discussion won't add at all to what's already been decided by smarter folks than me.
Kev-
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never never band
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3/2/2009 5:24:40 AM
Sam,
when the state puts someone to death, that means someone has to administer the injection.
It also means that we agree that the State has the moral compass to decide who should live and who should die.
It also means that we consider our justice system to be so infallible that we don't kill an innocent person.
It also mean that we consider revenge to be a viable form of state justice and a viable part of the conduct of civil society.
Life in prison is a perfectly good solution, it removes the sociopath from society . That is the goal...right?
And no, I'm not "implying" that putting someone to death is barbaric, I'm stating it openly and plainly!
It's barbaric.
Life locked up in a "shit hole" is barbaric in it's own way obviously, actually the state of our prison system is obscene , it's a national disgrace.But that's not an argument in favor of State Induced Murder.
I get that you have no remorse or compassion for the sociopath, but what about the person who has to kill him or her? How many times can we squeeze that needle before it starts to wear us away?
Tim McVeigh is a great example actually of why capital punishment is so creepy. Timothy McVeigh was a sociopath, he didn't see what he did as a crime, in his twisted logic it was the right thing to do. Killing someone like this adds nothing to our collective stance against his twisted agenda, it does nothing to educate, neither does it heal, it's merely Revenge and it makes everyone who calls for the killing culpable in the deed. It may seem right in a heated moment, but then everyone who calls for the criminals death has the rest of their lives to ponder, to wonder, to worry... and often to regret.
It's not what capital punishment does to the Criminal that's my greatest concern......it's what it does to the rest of us.
P
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Andy Broad
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3/2/2009 11:36:45 AM
Well put Never Never, I wholeheartedly agree.
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The Man With No Band
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3/2/2009 4:19:14 PM
---- Updated 3/2/2009 4:22:45 PM
Well Frater P. ... I'm not saying I'm right, but I doubt my views will ever change ... I think you and I agree on 99% of this issue ...
But I will always feel that anyone who purposely injures, maims or kills women or children ... and can be 100% proven ... should be exterminated ... you look at them as sociopaths ... I look at them as vermin ... and I truly believe they are less than human ...
If you come upon a rabid skunk ... for the betterment of society (and itself) you don't put it in a cage ... you shoot it ...
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Frisky Basket
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3/4/2009 8:42:32 PM
well you might look at the mothers who kill their own unborn children as vermin too by that logic. Its calculated and premeditated only considering their own benefits. I used to have a strong opinion on this subject too but it was succesfully killed along with my own unborn child when my girlfriend(at the time) got pregnant and chose to "terminate". I couldent talk her out of it.. and some of my socalled friends was furious with me for even trying.. since its HER choice and HER life .. somehow everyone seemed to forget it was my child too and my feelings getting all jamed up since my mind was already in flux thinking that i was to be a father..
And today 12 years after.. I can clearly see that my life is so much easier without the burden of responsibility.. and Im glad I dont have ties with that woman.. but at what cost and price? I dont think it can be measured.. just this topic is very hard to fathom when we push it into extreme examples like rape etc. we tend to think about it as something far away we fortunately dont have to deal with and thus we take it to absolute terms to get it over with and to have a clear opinion, but there are many colours in the picture.
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The Man With No Band
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3/4/2009 9:49:40 PM
There is NO comparison to be made between a Woman with a tough choice and a sociopath ... 90% of all of them that are locked up say they would commit the same crimes again if they had the chance ...
They are society's vermin ... you can't put a woman who chooses to end her pregnancy in that category because she is not a burden on society ...
Not even close to the same thing ...
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Frisky Basket
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3/4/2009 10:22:37 PM
well the sociopaths is usually a product of the society they burden. And just for the record my exgirlfriend did end as a great economic burden on society since she ended up in a mental institution about a year later not being able to handle her own choices.. or was it her own choices.. she didnt instinctively want to kill her own child when she found out she was pregnant she found that out after talking with her friends..brainwashed members of our dysfunctional society.
I tell you women are great victims to magazines filling them with crap ideas that dont belong in any decent civilisation. Its not so much whats in the line its what between them.. like (consume, get yours, if it feel good to you it is well justified)
As I see it the biggest problem is people leaving it up to doctors and scientist (or to society)to tell us what is morally right or wrong.. we are brainwashed away from sensing and feeling the world for ourselves.
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never never band
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3/5/2009 2:35:36 AM
what the hell does your crazy girlfriend have to do with Capital Punishment?
I swear, at first I thought it was just a disingenuous topic, then I though it was intellectual dishonesty..
now I think you're just stupid.
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3/5/2009 4:15:42 AM
---- Updated 3/5/2009 4:19:16 AM
Frisky Basket..., it might be worthwhile to know your former girlfriend's entire medical history to understand why she did what she did and why she is where she is today. There are some forms of Capitol Punishment that leaves the victim breathing and allows them to harm everyone they come into contact with. It's easy to dismiss them as sick or evil until you can really grasp what irreparable damage was done to them, usually at an age when they were completely defenseless. So her tragedy became yours and it seems there no rational explanation to it. But there probabaly is..., and it's probably hidden in some medical file when she was first diagnosed with a fake illness and damaged by the treatments for that.
The Mental Institutions are filled with victims of such medical brutality but they still generate money..., a lot of it. I'm sorry to hear of your loss.
www.cchr.org
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Tony Vani and Debbie Hoskin
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3/5/2009 4:37:10 AM
I think you don't have the right to judge who will forever have a "marked soul."
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3/5/2009 12:32:56 PM
---- Updated 3/5/2009 3:15:02 PM
"I think you don't have the right to judge who will forever have a "marked soul."
-
I wouldn't make such a judgment myself.., that power belongs to a higher authority.
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Frisky Basket
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3/5/2009 1:55:40 PM
what the hell does your crazy girlfriend have to do with Capital Punishment?
absolutely nothing, I suppose I came off a bit strong with all that . Just adding my 2 cent on the topic. Im probably too involved (for obvious reasons) to manifest an objectlive line of thought regarding this topic.And I apologize to Man wnB, you and anyone in here to whom I took off in a too ignorrant/agressive manner.
My only 1 point I wanted to make was that these decisions they are not as clearcut once you get your own toes in the door. Its rarely as black and white as holywood depicts it, I believe you all know that just perhaps without the practical realization of it.
sterling30: The Mental Institutions are filled with victims of such medical brutality but they still generate money..., a lot of it.
I know, Ive seen it up close and the statistics arent pretty .. in this part of the world about 65% of all people has been through a mental institution at some point of their lifes, but its generaly an all hush hush topic that noone wants to admidt to, adding to the problem for the next person to end in that part of the system.
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