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fly on the wall
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11/1/2015 1:22:58 AM
you know what I miss about indieland?
the dream. Back when many of us first came online so many people believed there was going to be a great outcome from them putting their music online. Now there's almost none of that, and judging by the reaction to some of our peers, you aren't even allowed to voice great belief in your music these days, it's viewed as out of place.
I love to see a new artist when they show up and really think they have something to give.
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Jilly
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11/1/2015 3:40:40 AM
---- Updated 11/1/2015 11:32:08 PM
Dear Fly,
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Bryon Tosoff
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11/1/2015 8:12:02 AM
---- Updated 11/1/2015 8:15:55 AM
ok,we should all feel that way, being enthusiastic, and have a great belief on yourselves and our craft of music, and sure, yell it out to the heavens, not my style, but maybe yours others way of doing things we are all going to get feedback that is negative, that is human nature, Look, are you me others going to have our feelings hurt just because someone says, be careful what you say, dont be too big on your self, you are living in a pipe dream if you think you think your music is special., if that is going to make you crumple like a piece of paper being squished in someones hands and tossed in the garbage, then you deserve to fall by the way side, Why shouldnt you believe in yourself, yes, of course, be big on yourself, but dont bitch and complain about it here , just pick your self up, and keep doing what you are bloody well doing and make your music your voice that rings out how good you are
We cant all be stars, but in our own eyes yes we can, look , everyone these days is clambering for the ladder to success. climbing up it only to fall off, some make it, and here we are with a 100000 plus artists here at IMP, do we all want to be recognized as something special, do we all seek stardom , money adulation and being revered as godlike, now which is it, do we do it for the love of it, for the art, or is it something else driving us to write songs, is it for the purity of doing something we enjoy, is it genuine and is it real. or is it coming out like chopped baloney and contrived as hell. Should we shout out how great we are, honestly , some here are. I guess we should be excited when we have a new song, or book or poem or project. What is it with musicians that we think everyone must hear us screaming for attention. does a doctor do that, hey i am the greatest, then the patient dies after he operates on them. lol
On another point, when we are younger, and maybe some of us are in spirit and are just filled to the brim with enthusiasm and piss and vinegar and nothing scares us ,we just do, because we dont know any better. And of course sometimes that wonderful feeling gets dashed , some give up, many move on, and the ones that keep getting up and moving on and maintain that self belief get to where they want to be.
I ramble,. I am not thinking this out I am just letting it flow
do believe in yourself. and your art. love what you do, do what you love
cheers and good subject
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Jilly
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11/1/2015 8:27:47 AM
---- Updated 11/1/2015 11:33:08 PM
Dear Bryon
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fly on the wall
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11/1/2015 8:44:41 AM
I'm not tired of hearing about artist dreams. I find it odd and selfish that any of you are. I think those dreams spur people on to make better music.
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Jilly
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11/1/2015 8:49:42 AM
---- Updated 11/1/2015 11:33:34 PM
Dear Fly
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fly on the wall
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11/1/2015 8:55:58 AM
I don't know how you would conclude that. Good music doesn't have to come from that angle.
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Jilly
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11/1/2015 9:05:46 AM
---- Updated 11/1/2015 11:34:00 PM
Aw
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Noah Spaceship
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11/1/2015 9:37:04 AM
You kind of need to pick an angle and go with it, fly.
Nothing has changed other than your perspective on things.
That changes frequently too, judging by your comments.
I think what you actually miss has nothing to do with indie land, it has to do with pangs of ignorance from the past.
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Bryon Tosoff
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11/1/2015 9:50:36 AM
---- Updated 11/1/2015 9:52:15 AM
MUSIC
Point one. I love to listen to music ( you better damn know that I do)
Point two, some music is better then others
point three, some artists are better then others
point four. some artists who are better then others and make great music, dont always make it to the top of the ladder and or will ever make it. sometimes the ordinary joe makes it with the ordinary music, why because it appeals to the masses, maybe because they are more appealing and connect to the average joe blow , maybe they did yell louder, maybe they had more time to do it, maybe their mommy and daddy had lots of money to help them, maybe they knew how to promote and market themselves better, maybe they were not assholes and turned people off. I dont know, who knows, none of us, it is just one of those things
FLY ON THE WALL SAID
"I'm not tired of hearing about artist dreams. I find it odd and selfish that any of you are. I think those dreams spur people on to make better music."
Come on fly man , you know we are any bloody thing but selfish, we I you wish for the best for anyone who slings on a guitar, steps up to the mike and gives it, it is hard work, and it is like anything else, you have to work your art, and it wont just happen here where every bloody body falls over because you make lovely hip music , I have said this before, and you know it is the truth, you cant make it here, online because that is not where it is at, get off the wall, get about flying around like you have been doing , looking for talent, and see that the dawn of the new age has come, its not online, it is offline where you will build your following, build your grassroots, spread the good news of the new sound you are making and grind it out. We are deceived if we think the days of the 1990's 2000s will do it, and trumpet and pontificate our greatness, those days are shot all to hell. YES, that is one part of it, but it is way more then that of uploading a song, and waiting for people to come to you and listen, hell that is like me going out and standing in the middle of nowhere singing my ass off. maybe that is a good idea actually maybe my ass sings better then I can,
but again, we are here to encourage and motivate and inspire artists , at least I try, but is it really helping them , maybe, and sure let them say they are great, but to me, that is a hollow way to be, I think others should say, WOW you guys or you girl are really awesome great, and jump onboard and be their advocate, and I have done that way more times then you really know. it is hard work. exhausting sometimes helping others get to that land of dreams
SELFISH, ME Fly not a chance , you should know me better then that after all these years around here and you know me and what i do, I am a small part of the piece of the puzzle. helping others get to where they want to be,
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Bryon Tosoff
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11/1/2015 10:37:32 AM
While I was rambling Fred jumped in and said it all, in like 2 sentences, that is his genius. getting to the core. he said it all. now we deal with new reality
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Stoneman
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11/1/2015 11:43:50 AM
Oh my, there it is. The "C" word as in commercial. This has always been labeled the indie satan. I say? What a crock of bull that is. The music industry is all about being able to deliver what the industry is looking for. Most times the industry is looking for the kind of music that has been proven to be a top seller. Other times they are looking for something different and fresh that they are willing to gamble on. Artists want to do the music that they feel in their hearts. But if that music is not selling they may have to switch up and do the music that is selling first and then later when they have established themselves, do the music that they believe in the most. This is nothing new. It has been happening since the early years of the music business. We always called it the ultimate sacrifice/pay dues and everybody (including the bands that made it) hated it. But if you want to make it in the music business, this is a sacrifice you may have to temporarily make. It has nothing to do with art. It is about sound business practices. The biggest mistake most indie artists make is that they forget that this is a business and in business you often have to make decisions that go against your inner heart but work towards improving your business standing and bottom line. Once you get a big hit, you can write your own ticket. Call your own shots. Do the music that you always wanted to do. That is because you now have this thing called leverage. The music industry powers that be finally take you seriously.
The dream should never end. As artists you must stop being the sheep led to the slaughter and start being the wolves that capture the prey. Meaning success. There are many levels of it but some of us get stuck on stupid about having big hits and stardom. But a regional hit will also get you noticed, appreciated and paid. It will open the doors to bigger opportunities. Bottom line is that your music must be able to compete with what is being played on the radio, in the movies, by the DJ's/VJ's and according to the consumer dynamic you are aiming for. That means it must be at least a bit commercial at first. Get yourself in the drivers seat first, then you can start calling your own shots in regards to your creativity. But you must learn how to give the people what they want according to current industry trends. All that starry eye crap that they have been feeding you all your lives can wait. First you must learn how to deliver what the industry needs, how the industry works and who can help you reach the level of music industry accomplishments you strive for. Clive Davis may come look at you and say "good group" but I want you to do these songs right here. Do the damn songs and get your name out there. Next time you come out, you can tell Clive what you are going to do or you can go elsewhere that is more open to your creative goals. But first you must empower yourself with clout as a proven entity.
Many other artists will call you a sell out. But ignore that crap because unless you learn how to sell out of something in this industry, you will not make it in this industry. Unless you learn how to sell out of CD's, merchandise, downloads and concert venues, you are just wasting your time. The dream is to become self sufficient and capable of financially maintaining yourself, your band and your family. I have never had a big hit but I am now self sufficient. Not because I am a big star but because I have learned how to sell my stuff to enough people to keep me self sufficient. If I ever get a big hit (which of course is one of my dreams) it will be the bonus I always hoped would come. Otherwise, I am happy at being at the level that I am at.
The other thing that bugs me about a lot of indies is that they are so caught up in being an indie that they lose sight of the rest of the world and all the other genres that they could be exploring. Take the Roots for instance. they have never had a worldwide hit but they have learned to be self sustaining by being able to do almost any kind of music you put in front of them. This landed them the tonight show gig. While doing that gig they have put out their own CD that has the kind of music they truly like to do. But first they learned how to deliver what the industry was looking for. They are living their dream now and can basically write their own music industry tickets. Smart, cunning, versatile and open to any opportunity that comes along. This is what you must be if you really want to capture the dream.
By the way, this is not a unique issue for the music industry. It is what happens in almost every industry. I know so many people that graduated from college with degrees in stuff that they never ever worked in. They went where the opportunity was and they delivered whatever it was the employer wanted while concentrating on finding a way to do what they always dreamed they could do.
I did a tour in Las Vegas way back in the late 70's and during that 3 month tour I played almost every casino on the strip. I made more money in music during that trip than I have ever made. We basically had a 16 song set of all the industry standards. No originals. By the end of the trip I had sang "Tie A Yellow Ribbon" over a hundred times. I hated the song before I sang it the first time. But it was what the people wanted at those venues. Almost every time we sang it some fat cat would give us a hundred dollar tip. That was not selling out. Back in those days we called it paying dues. Musicians knew back then that in order to do the music they wanted to do, that they would have to first play the music they hated. Many musicians paid their dues all their lives and never got a away from it. But they made a living in the music industry. Other musicians eventually got the break that opened the doors for them to do their own music. But today's indie wimps think that they should have instant success. They are so stuck on being an indie that they will never get out there in the world and capture the prize. A minute few may make it but most will burn out and die from disappointment because nobody ever told them to man/woman up and pay some damn dues. Get out there and play the commercial crap until the opportunity arises to do something else. You want to fulfill your dreams? Pay some fucking dues. Geesh! This subject always gets me so angry because musicians have lost sight of how the industry has always worked. The internet didn't change anything in that regard. It has been this way for at least 70 or 8o years and I don't think it will ever change. Read the industry trades and find out what the majors are looking for. Give it to them! Pay your dues and eventually you will may run the show. But ignore all that sellout crap. Those people are the ones that will wind up old and bitter because they never made it. Fuck Them! They are just haters who wish they had done what you have done. I paid my dues for 35 years before I got to the level I am at. Quite often I still pay my dues when my label calls me and says they need a blah, blah, blah kind of song. I get up off my ass and write/produce that shit. Got to give the people what they want........
Okay I am done with my rant now.
Much Respect,
Stoneman
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Bryon Tosoff
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11/1/2015 11:49:30 AM
What Stoneman says, he should know, been there done that, and I have said it here as well. yet some continue to walk with a blindfold and cant see the truth. it is all about the business, and learning the business. Sure you can like yourself, be big on yourself. but I find the ones that do it, have a sense of reality. Having the confidence and not need to have people say wow, or say look how great I am. no one cares. Like Stoneman said, pay your dues, learn the trade, and if you are really into doing this for a living then its a long long haul, for most. Haven't we had this subject up here before, too many times, it is getting old. it needs to be thrown out with the trash.
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Jillidom
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11/1/2015 12:05:58 PM
My Dream is to find a listener who understands me
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fly on the wall
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11/1/2015 12:14:55 PM
I don't think anything I said in the OP was even that controversial. Very surprised it struck up such an impassioned discussion but that's a good thing.
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Bryon Tosoff
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11/1/2015 12:33:37 PM
HA, Jilly. you make me mental
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Bryon Tosoff
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11/1/2015 12:35:39 PM
that song gave me so much understanding and insight, I wish I heard it before,,,,
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Noah Spaceship
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11/1/2015 1:48:25 PM
Stoneman, Bryon, yes.
I like the old saying, 'there are no geniuses in the biz'.
What that means/implies is that the business is inundated with raw talent, like, saturated and dripping with phenomenally talented players and the ONLY way to differentiate is via blood sweat and tears.
The most talented cannot compete against the person who gets up earlier and stays on the job longer.
I have always been a natural at any instrument I play, and I play fluently many instruments and learned theory from hours a day, year after year of brutal practice and tirelessly hustling.
I have turned down 3 legitimate record deal offers over the year. Not to avoid selling out, but to maintain artistic freedom, and for that I can sport a badge of honor.
But at the end of the day, I work more hours than full time employees on music.
I don't have to blow my own horn, my body of work stands on its own whether you like it or not and I am still chasing the dream.
...actually, I live the dream, but I am indie not by choice so much as just the cards I was dealt.
Like Stoneman, it pisses me off when lazy primadonas with bloated egos call others out for selling out.
So yeah, this subject will never die, but, the punk rock attitude of selling out is flawed like a motherfucker.
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Bryon Tosoff
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11/1/2015 2:02:44 PM
And I for one Fred, respect you and admire your abilities to do such original works, and have listened to probably everything you have composed, and with your collaborator you two make something incredibly amazing, it is unique to the core. nothing contrived. Love the art and magic of making music. It is pure and almost a spiritual thing. but some desecrate it .
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Stoneman
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11/1/2015 2:10:55 PM
Fred, I have great respect for you as a person and also for your music. You keep it real and that is such an important thing in this business. But another thing that makes you great is the fact that you are willing to listen and consider what other folks have to offer in regards to advise and expertise. That will take you to other musical dimensions and higher heights.
Bryon,
Thank you so much for being willing to share all that you know about the business of making music. You are such an important part of what makes IMP the best indie site around.
Much Respect,
Stoneman
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Captain Confusion
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11/1/2015 2:11:02 PM
Is this the Sammy Maudlin show?
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Bryon Tosoff
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11/1/2015 2:15:09 PM
no this is the channel you are looking for, you are a confused little man aren't you
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Captain Confusion
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11/1/2015 2:19:59 PM
I'm not little, I'm 6 foot 6.
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Bryon Tosoff
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11/1/2015 2:20:38 PM
I am 9' 9. you are little to me
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Raandy
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11/1/2015 2:28:41 PM
liar.
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Noah Spaceship
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11/1/2015 2:42:33 PM
Funny analogy.
We can hope we are as entertaining as the Sammy maudlin sketches.
:)
Btw, I'm 5'4" in shoes. 5'5" in boots when they're not up someone's ass.
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Raandy
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11/1/2015 2:46:44 PM
I actually get taller when somebody's boot is up my ass.
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Bryon Tosoff
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11/1/2015 3:10:21 PM
ok, i am just under 6 foot. I did tell an untruth
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Shoe City Sound
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11/1/2015 5:25:41 PM
Stoneman and Bryon - I have total respect for what you say about the music business and how to make a living in it. I so admire both of you for the success you've achieved as well. I have to admit, I'm resentful in a way that the arts have to conform to a business plan. Just curious, can either of you - or anyone else - think of any really successful, popular artists that have taken any kind of alternate route to the top?
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the perfect banana
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11/1/2015 5:58:38 PM
I have deep respect for grape and cherry.
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the perfect grape
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11/1/2015 5:59:30 PM
Not as much as we respect you, banana.
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Bryon Tosoff
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11/1/2015 8:50:39 PM
Sure a lot of respect going on around here from the others : ) . anyways Dolores that is a good question you presented and something i should investigate. I only know of those who I have promoted but would not call them popular or well known, but they make a living as performers and studio engineers-producers and one is well entrenched in the movie jingle TV shows biz and writes a lot of scores and soundtracks ,
I think those in the music industry are pretty multi-faceted and do a bunch of different things, Performing in bands solo , do studio work .producing other artists. I sure someone could come up with some names of those who have done things in a non conformist way,not off hand , I dont know although i should I guess. but thanks for the shout out and acknowledgment
bryon
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Stoneman
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11/1/2015 9:59:41 PM
The "Big Four" major labels (Sony BMG, Universal Music Group, EMI, Warner Music Group) have pretty much got the method and route to super stardom sewn up by monopolizing the distribution channels. Even the independents eventually have to come to those folks or their affiliates. However, there are a few exceptions to the traditional routes to success. The one that sticks out the most for me would be Justin Beiber (of all people) who was discovered on Youtube after posting a series of home made videos. Most people would call that a fluke but he did bypass the conformist process and is still pretty much a rebel. Another non-traditional route would be the artists that won high profile contests like Idol and Xfactor. There is a whole slew of them that you can look up. Kelly Clarkson is probably the most successful of that lot. However, even though those folks may have started out in a non conformist way they are totally all balls in it now. In contrast, Prince conformed to get there but has been totally non conformist ever since. The guy seems to have no love for the suits or their way of controlling the business in a business manner. Ironically, his non-conformist business practices have garnered him great respect for his "business" acumen. Some say he is a music "business" genious.
I am sure there are a lot more but I don't know who they are. In life there are always exceptions to every rule. Numerically speaking, this is only logical.
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birdy's eye view
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11/2/2015 1:38:23 AM
I thought the latest batch of new artists are very refreshing and original. I hope some of those become Pipeliners. Everyone has something to offer, people should never worry that they are repeating something that has gone before because there are so many ways of looking at these things. I like fresh, innocent eyes and I like old wise eyes, each can learn from the other surely.
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Shoe City Sound
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11/2/2015 7:18:06 AM
I have great respect for all fruit.
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Bryon Tosoff
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11/2/2015 7:19:20 AM
cant forget the veggies. and cereal too.
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Stoneman
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11/2/2015 7:33:18 AM
That is very true Birdy! I also hope to see more participation from new artists on the Pipeline. That would be so cool. I just flew in to Cabo San Lucas, Mexico. Getting ready to start a week full of "Fiesta" with my wife! and other fun activities. Might not see me around here as much until next week. I can here a giant shot of Don Julio calling me. It's going to be an epic week!
Mucho Respeto,
Stoneman
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LyinDan
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11/2/2015 3:40:56 PM
Jillie's (edited) comments are perfect. Thank you Jillie.
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