the quagmire of music-science by Noah Spaceship on The Pipeline at IndieMusicPeople

the quagmire of music-science
I have watched this video several times. I am quite savvy with Ralph Murphy @ASCAP, and he is a very smart dude. He crunches data and compiles top charting song's similarities in lyrics, melody structure, key signatures, tempos, etc.

I love it.

I love how desperately eager to achieve a hit song so many composers are that they literally hemorrhage hundreds of cookie cutter shit song dog fuck chasing the charts piles of regurgitated bile to either never get a hit song or maybe have one or two per thousand subpar not so masterful masterpieces.

Poor fuckers. No soul. No heart. No desire to create something unique. Only lab cloning of crap we as listeners are sick as fuck of.

I feel so sorry for these composers, but I feel even more sorry for the listeners who are subjected to the same old tired bullshit over and over and over. Don't get me wrong, I love pop music, but I wait for those edgy new unique standout gems that live with you forever songs, not some renob attempting to be Elvis or Jim Morrison, or whatever iconic blowhard who pegged the charts one or ten times during the nostalgia years sound-alike.

There is no guts in that, and therefore no glory.

I see so many extremely gifted musician around me, and waaay beyond my technical ability drowning in mediocrity and I want to throw them a life preserver, because watching them all flail in a panic, humping the leg of someone else's dream only leaves mountains of over thought sterilized shmuck grease tainting my hi fi speakers and teaching my psyche bad habits of what is expected and what is acceptable.

It is counter evolution.

I am telling you all right now, if you get hung up on what people think of you and whether you contort well enough to fit some prefab mold, you are doing it wrong and if you ever do write some kind of a hit that sells or charts, you earned the reputation of a phony fair and fucking square.

I know I rub a lot of people wrong and this post is dedicated to those beautiful people, eat my shit, haha.

With Love,
Noah Fucking Spaceship et al

PS - FU :)

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Noah Spaceship

4/9/2016 4:40:23 AM

//edit - I forgot to include the embedded video, heh

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Larree

4/9/2016 8:00:53 AM

Professional hacks with no fucking soul. Fuck 'em.

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Richard Scotti

4/9/2016 9:40:14 AM

Noah ~ You are wise person! Thank you for the artistic relevance that you bring here.
FU2!

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Lars Mars

4/9/2016 4:43:50 PM

an enlightening 39:17 Fred,

unfortunately he lost me between two minutes and two minutes and thirty seconds after playing the 'you card' but neglecting to tell me how wonderful I am.

glenn

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LyinDan

4/9/2016 6:42:49 PM ---- Updated 4/9/2016 6:45:32 PM

Larree, commercially speaking, you're a cretin. Not that you're a cretin in the real world of knowing now to relate to the real world, but in terms of musical commercial sense. You have none. Sorry. Zero.

I am ASCAP. It's not terribly common nowadays,but yeah, in terms of affiliation, I'm an ASCAP guy. Like this guy. this guy is privy to tons of data concerning what songs people actually buy. Pay money for. In this, he is the DUDE. Because he sees it all.

It all boils down to just what musicians want from making music.]

Some want to masturbate. There's nothing wrong with this. Despite far right Christians. It's OK to masturbate. Perfectly OK. When you masturbate, it's ALL ABOUT YOU. Some like to watch you masturbate. And there's nothing wrong with that. If someone gets pleasure from your masturbation, that's perfectly fine. In fact, it's great that you are a giving person. Kool! Now, when I say you're masturbating when make music, I mean you are pleasing yourself. You have an idea about music, it makes you come (sorry to be explicit, but this is what it amounts to). You like it when you come.Doesn't everyone? You assume that either: everyone comes to the same stimulus you do or : they should, and if they don't, they are fucking stupid, or worse, morons, and therefore should not be paid attention to.But that's not actually so.

Music, basically, is an emotion generator. Just like reading a book. Well most books. Some books just transfer facts (which can generate emotions, but not all of them.). What do you seek from writing a song? If you're genuine (and I'll get to non-genuine later), you want to persuade, you want to

(sorry, had to take my dog out to pee)

make someone feel as you do. If that's not it, you just want to pee all over them and call it good.

Now, the meaning of commercial. Something that's commercial is something that people want to buy. If they want to buy it, that is a test of their commitment to wanting it. If no one buys something, that means no one has a commitment to it, or wants to keep it around. Unless of course, they can get it and keep it around without paying for it, which is a testless commitment. You can steal stuff if you are committed. That still means you want it, but it is a testless commitment, the means of measuring your commitment (paying for it) are not immediately available, although if great numbers of people can be shown to be stealing your music, clearly they still have a commitment and desire for it. But nevermind about that. Unless you are pure of heart, and just want to be heard, nevermind rewarded.
Commerciality is measure of desire.

It doesn't matter whether people want shit or gold, in terms of your musical influence. Your influence, that is, your ability to persuade or make people feel, is determined by your ability to get people to pay attention to you, and the measure of their commitment is monetary, or it is attention. Attention and desire, commercially, is measured by payment. Which is measured by commercial charts or the various measures of commitment by Paying-for-it (OR, by downloading it, equal commitments by my measure).

None of this has anything to do with "quality of music". Various critics will define quality of music by various measures. Mostly, frankly, by technical measures. Those really mean NOTHING by people measures. People like what they like. They dont overthink it. There are certain measures that tend to make people like music, but they're overridden all the time.

Now, this guy is trying to tell you why MOST people are attracted to music. He has the facts. He does make a break to pop and country, and I think there's a certain psychological break there, in fact, cause mainly, most pop listeners are relatively free thinkers, and most country folk are stuck in a rut, but even then country peeps are attracted by certain kinds of innovation and popular appeal (Lucinda Williams, Rosanne Cash). But he's got measureable stats, and they say, if you want to persuade, appeal to, exchange emotions with the general populace, there are certain ways of appealing that are more popular than others.

Jerkin a wad has a limited appeal. Not saying there's no niche market though, go for it.

************************************************888

The next three fucking pages went down the cornhole, abraided and bleeding by the lack of login memory, and fuck, I can neither remember it nor rewrite it. FUCK. It may take me an hour to write all this, but there's no excuse for forgetting it before I do! Fuck!

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Noah Spaceship

4/9/2016 7:26:24 PM

I'm glad you guys found some interest in the topic. This topic intrigues me very much. I love analyzing and observing people and their interpretation of art in general, and since I love making music so much, well, of course Ralph appeals to me.
He is rather objective despite (in my opinion) being so bound to established protocol.

I agree with your perspective, Dan, wholeheartedly. Sorry you lost your post, that has happened to me too many times, haha.

A small point I made, but didn't really emphasize was that I think those epic groundbreaker hit songs are the product of risk taking and fucking off the 'rules' as Ralph lays out.

I am not immune to wanting to write a hit song. I am completely guilty of chasing the same dream. I feel like my approach is different than the majority of ASCAP or BMI artists who crank the shit out like a roofer would shingling a house or something. I like to be different. I like taking scary risks. I don't want the safety net of structured embarking. My approach is more like heading out into the wilderness with a bowie knife to see what I can make of it. The only fear I can really associate with is falling into that trap of needing to produce a certain type of song to be liked or sold.
Scott mentioned something about indies boosting others out of the obscure dregs to get a leg up, and maybe there is some validity to that in relation to how corporate music has a fuckload of money to back hype and pushing material over the hump. Sometimes being forced to listen to a song as a captive radio listener clicks after a few listens and a taste for the song is acquired as a result. There is merit to that phenom, and I am certain there are many of us unknown artists who could totally break through with an opportunity like that, but again, the fear I harbor stems from not necessarily wanting to be remembered for certain body of work and I find myself choosing to remain in obscurity to avoid the backlash of negative critical reception, but I am not in my 20's anymore, and I just don't give a fuck, I am what I am and I don't see myself redefining or remolding myself to any great degree, so fuck it, game on, fucking bring it, I'm ready, warts and all - no apologies.

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Larree

4/9/2016 9:09:52 PM

LyinDan, thanks for your input. I do appreciate and totally dig where you are coming from. I am BMI myself, and sometimes I make enough money for a donut and a cup of coffee. I don't go out of my way to write for other people, but other people sure do seem to dig what I do play, so, right on!

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Larree

4/10/2016 9:31:15 AM

When you follow a "formula" all you get is the same crap as everyone else. This reminds me of those people who get into "thinking" your way to riches programs. Too many of those people sit on their asses thinking and never do the actual work.

I like the Ray Bradbury method. "Write what you love and love what you write."

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Noah Spaceship

4/10/2016 1:22:04 PM

I know, Larree, but many people in positions of promotion won't take risks on radicals like us because we don't fit the mold.

haha, oh well, I have my fan base and get my credit from them, not musicoligists.

rock on, dude

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Larree

4/10/2016 1:29:25 PM

All I can say to the suits is, "Glad I'm not wearing a suit!"

FU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Chandra Moon

4/11/2016 3:43:01 AM

Hi Noah - just wanted to say I think the lyrics of Same Old Sun are brilliant. I know you didn't ask for an opinion here but not sure where else to say it! It's hard to hear them on the track but when I saw them written I was blown away. Lovely words.

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Steve Ison

4/11/2016 1:58:01 PM

Noah..Thats a seriously GREAT post my friend with which i concur 100%..

Its strange -watching that video with its dull, artless,reductionist corporate pragmatism and hearing most modern pop -which reflects that cynicism - is a profoundly depressing experience
Woh -refecting on it-everything about this society makes me feel incredibly alienated and an utter outsider..

Isn't great pop music supposed to have some beauty ? Suprise ? Magic ? Take you out of the dull work-a-day for 2 or 3 glorious minutes and make you feel freer ?

Whats wrong with loving the art ?

I feel like i'm living on another planet.. And modern country especially makes me feel i'm listening to people assimilated by the borg lol

I had a listen a few weeks ago at my friend Sarahs in London to the top 10 or so tracks of the year...Most were awful and actually seriously depressing in their vibe n predictability..
One was great tho..Unfortunately i can't remember who it was by..VERY violent video -slow sung verse -fast RnB chorus that actually resonated and had that delightful element of SUPRISE completely missing from an ok 'functional' pop hit like Rhiannas Diamonds that the guy in the video namechecks

I think one of the answers to why pop could be so much more intense n creative in the 'good old days' lol- was that so many of the major movers n shakers were genuine outsiders..The Beatles,Stones,Hendrix,Bowie,Neil Young,Dylan..They were kinda pushing the culture around them to change and get faster in their consciousness -To 'wake up' a bit.. - so the art they created reflected that

Not constantly chasing n pandering to the lowest common denominator of what "the people want "..Thats not being an artist -thats just being a marketeer

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Noah Spaceship

4/11/2016 10:01:47 PM

I keep finding myself cringing when I see a new comment on this thread, I just never know what to expect. :)

I am relieved to see the support for this topic and how many of you relate.

@Steve - my daughters and I peruse the top 40 charts often and usually find a band or two that we haven't heard of that are great, and we buy their CD. It seems the stuff we like and align with are roughly 1 in 20 or more, and the rest, like you said are based on what seems like intentional marketing tripe, for sure. There are times when we don't find shit in the top 100, so there is that, too.

Cheers! :)

@ Chandra, I'm so glad you like those lyrics, Same Old Sun was a risky production, and when you pointed out how you struggled to make out the vocals, it inspired me to re-listen and I get what you are saying. That song I mixed without my typical feedback crew here, and I tend to drop the vocals in the mix when I don't have someone telling me to bring them up, because I hear them in my head just fine. It is one of the perils of self producing your own tracks, and so easy to fall into that trap, so thanks for the feedback. :)

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Stoneman

4/12/2016 10:08:43 AM

A fascinating watch for sure. But, not sure I have much to add to this other than sharing a bit about my songwriting process. For me, writing a song is like bringing forth offspring. There is first inspiration which is creatively orgasmic. That can come from just about anything including an ant on a leaf to a protester laying face down with a cops knee on his neck. I am inspired by the feelings that external stimuli bring to my internal yearnings to communicate musically. I am not a great songwriter. But I am a pretty good listener. I listen to the music that resonates in my head and then I interpret that through instrumentation and voice. It is a labor of love of the art form that moves me towards a variety of sounds and mathematical anecdotes. There are beats that reverberate in my head and rhythms that call to my Africanized consciousness. All of this spirals inside of me and while I sit at the helm of my console I can see the images of musical notation, syncopation and idealistic relativity to lyrical emotion. The picture is clear and concise. The images are feelings and emotions transforming into instrumentation. I hear horns, strings, sub bass, guitar strums, keyboard riffs and percussion. All of this somehow mingles, marinates and becomes a song. Of course there is song form. I need it to make it make sense to more than myself. So I put it in the forms that the human mind has become accustomed to. But I have never created a song. To create would be to consider myself like a god. I laugh at those who consider themselves music creators. They are only fooling themselves. What they bring forth was already here before they assembled it. It’s sort of like Columbus arriving in America and claiming he has discovered it. How can you discover a place that already has people living there? In the same sense, songwriters do not create. All they have done is manipulate the DNA into peculiar musical structures that emote. I assemble what I hear and I interpret it into my own musical feelings. My process is to tap into the creative force that surrounds us all. The earth, the air, the dust roiling through my nostrils. All is musical energy. All is able to inspire and notate. Fear, Love, hate, anger, sadness, humility, joy, sex, death, birth and many other emotions derived from my own personal life journey are mixed in and organized. When I am done. I listen and I thank God for giving me the gift of another offspring. I never listen to the charts and I seldom even listen to the radio. Those things can become external distractions that taint my personal process. In a given year I couldn’t tell you one song that was number 1. I really don’t care about that. What I care about is my own personal connection to the musical elements and how I can use that connection to give birth to songs. But, I do enjoy listening to indie music because I feel it is pure and untainted by the corporate influences.

I have been an ascap man since the early 80's. I will die one. I care less about what others are doing musically. Their formulas and creative processes are their own. I respect that. Even if it is cookie cutter bulshit, their process is unique to them and even if it sounds like all the other songs out there, I give them respect and the benefit of the doubt. I believe the songwriter is a messenger on a mission to share the thoughts and feelings he/she has within. The songwriter is a listener, interpreter, assembler and philosophical wordsmith. By accepting my limitations I humanize my work. By humanizing my work a few humans seem to find worth in it. That is my mission. It is my hope that it will someday find worth from the masses. I would love to have a #1 hit someday. But even if I never do, my songs have become musical organisms. They are alive! They are new entities seeking to be heard.

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Larree

4/12/2016 1:01:58 PM

Stoneman, that is a beautiful description of the creative process. Rock on, bro!

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Noah Spaceship

4/12/2016 1:25:15 PM

I like how you describe your process, Stoneman, and I know you are religious, and I respect that. I respect that you choose not to, in the face of God as you see it, call your process a creation. I too am very spiritual and I actually do believe we are all creators and we are all tapped straight into the universal collective and from birth we have the ability to talk straight to God, and because of this, depending on our level of service throughout our lives do actually have the power to create and govern our realities, making us each God of our own perception. I am good with God. I think we may be playing a semantics game here, because I don't think you and I are much different at all, we were just taught different tact and wordplay. I did not grow up in any type of church, I was taught the golden rule and it translated to being able to relate to all belief systems like I relate to clothing styles or taste in music. We all have our own drum that we march to and that is a beautiful thing to me. I think being musical creators means we assemble soundwaves into audio performances that we can either play live or play through speakers. If we didn't create it, no one would hear it, it would still be bouncing around in the ether with God. I also compare my songs to beings of their own, but not like making children and raising them, that takes way more to raise a child, but to do either justice, we must be honest and good with God.

much respect :)

ps - great to see you on the pipeline, I hope you are feeling better.

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Larree

4/12/2016 1:34:06 PM ---- Updated 4/12/2016 1:44:57 PM

According to the bible (I'm not a preacher, but I did to go a free concert at a church Sunday) we are all created in God's image which means we are all creators just like God. And we are all given free will to choose our own direction. So we can use our creative power for constructive or destructive purposes. So, with all due respect towards your humbleness, Stoneman, I acknowledge you as a very creative guy!

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Bob Elliott

4/12/2016 9:51:39 PM

I watched about half. Doesn't seem like the formulas he's suggesting are much different from what they would've asked of you if you worked writing songs in the Brill building or at Motown.

Creativity was not squelched.

I am very fond of certain structures.

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Noah Spaceship

4/13/2016 1:51:41 AM ---- Updated 4/13/2016 2:19:33 AM

Ralph's formulas are not that much different, Bob.
I disagree with you and think that approach is archaic and that it actually does stifle creativity.

Some of us don't mind eating the same thing off the menu every time, some of us do. I like and generally prefer trying new things. Enjoy :)

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Bob Elliott

4/13/2016 4:54:46 PM

Most music doesn't strike me as particularly creative or original, but principles like 'a bridge at about two minutes' or 'get past the intro within 15 seconds' or 'repeat title' do not seem like the place to lay blame.

Keep the bpm up is not a bad thought really either. And besides, he seems to say that about a third of what makes it to the top breaks one or more of the conventions. That's a pretty high proportion, meaning maybe there is quite a bit of wiggle room if someone has something that really works.

I do not mean to say anyone has to watch these numbers, I just don't think this type of knowledge has much to do with a lack of creativity. Give someone creative like say Carol King the same mission, and what did she produce?

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Bob Elliott

4/13/2016 4:58:39 PM ---- Updated 4/13/2016 5:00:53 PM

He is giving a speech to people who are paying all their bills writing songs. I don't think it's too crazy for them to be aware of those numbers given their job.

But I don't think it stifles their creativity. Some are probably very creative and some not so, and nothing is gonna change that.

Put me in that job, and tell me to mind those prerequisites, and I will most certainly write you some songs with a mark of creativity.

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Bob Elliott

4/13/2016 5:02:45 PM

Also, a good middle 8 is almost worth dying for, and it's something most indie types would do well to include but they don't.

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Bob Elliott

4/13/2016 5:08:37 PM

Mostly, though, the things he mentions are the kinds of things most any songwriter would already have a sense for: this is too slow
Chorus doesn't hook
Intro is getting lost in itself

Writers of pop that are also lovers of pop will have internalized the most of this long ago.

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Bob Elliott

4/13/2016 5:18:45 PM ---- Updated 4/13/2016 5:20:17 PM

Steve Ison mentions Beatles, Stones, Young, Dylan as breakers of the mold bringing on a new creativity. I would agree they brought on the creativity, but pretty much they all seem to be practicing the art of these very forms and structures. They don't ignore them nearly as often as they excel at them. Especially The Beatles. These people were Jedi masters of strict song form.

I love those things. Interlocking rhyme schemes, middle eights, keeping length in check...etc. I love the limits. They're beautiful. It's like, if you're going to write haiku, then stick to the seventeen syllables. It's the art.

I listen to and have made much music that doesn't fit the format, but if I were to list the 100 most influential songs on my mind, I bet most would be pretty formal in structure.

Stevie Creative Wonder has rarely diverged from structure in his whole career.

Bacharach never, really.

But man do they make it soar.

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Bob Elliott

4/13/2016 5:22:05 PM

So, if you feel you are eating the same thing off the menu every time, probably the chef's not that great, not that you need a new meal not named lunch dinner or breakfast, you just need a good chef.

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Bob Elliott

4/13/2016 5:24:49 PM

And, by the way, Steve Ison himself is pretty much immersed in these forms, and quite creative within them.

Now Noah's music (I checked out a lot of it) goes off standard forms somewhat, maybe not as far as he may think, but also has a definite creative energy in it.

We all must follow our own.

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Bob Elliott

4/13/2016 5:31:09 PM ---- Updated 4/13/2016 5:31:46 PM

Mostly for me the topic goes under the heading that so many indie posts do: the business is holding down our creativity.

That's just something I think would be impossible. Creative people are like volcanoes. You could put a plug in for awhile, but if they're creative, something's gonna blow no matter what.

To me the lack of creativity is just that: a lack of creativity, and I'd lay the fault on whatever artist isn't bringing the stuff.

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Noah Spaceship

4/14/2016 5:04:05 AM

haha, oh man, whip it out dude. :)

you know your music and structure, no doubt. but you argued yourself into a few different circles there, bud.

First of all, this may or may not be one of those 'tired old indie threads about the man keeping them down' - or not.
I was bringing up the fact that I have sympathy/pity for the creators who feel they have to follow the formula, or self stifled record label shills exhausting themselves on the grind, which is fine, it is definitely a part of the business, and they do exist,.. in droves.

Secondly, no one is keeping me down, I don't a give a fuck, I do what I like with or without a middle 8, haha. Seriously, I don't give a shit if you like it. I happen to love my middle 8s when I have em and I love it when I don't.

Thirdly, I agree, creative people can be like volcanos and nothing stops them.

And finally, the point of this post is to inspire those who limit themselves. By sharing my thoughts I would like to motivate my homies who resonate with this topic and to not be inhibited by 'rules' and and to also be grateful for our opportunity to not be tied down 'by the man'.

thank you for participating, FU :)

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Bob Elliott

4/14/2016 11:48:04 AM ---- Updated 4/14/2016 6:01:56 PM

I don't understand all the 'FU' and "don't give a fuck what you think" stuff. Did you not want people to consider your thoughts and then respond with our own thoughts on the topic?

I thought it was a topic worth discussing so I'm discussing. If you're just giving speeches and have no use for diverging thoughts on what you say, you should maybe say that right out front in the first post: hear me out, but don't disagree.

I'm not aware of any circles I've argued myself into, I've just presented some of my own thinking on the topic.

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Steve April

4/14/2016 12:44:51 PM

Alienation-synthesis, alienation-synthesis...

Way back in college, after reading Kierkegaarde's blast on Hegel, who dared think the dialectic was "apart" from a human perspective, a person said "the dialectic is a way of looking at things," to which the instructor replied, "No, the dialectic is the thing."

Anyhoo, this is a thread that makes me hope IAC/IMP presents a unique, thot-provoking framework for discussions like this.

Of course, Bob Eliot's alternative thoughts are a great part of the dialectic, to Fred, and Larree, and Lyin' Dan's got his view, and the inimitable Steve Ison. All together now...

btw, "Blonde On Blonde" by Nada Surf, says it better in 3 minutes, and hummable also ha ha...rock on..."the giant golden radio..." comes from the sky...

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LyinDan

4/14/2016 9:35:04 PM

Hey, Bob, Noah wasn't being insulting.

"FU" stands for Future Unity, a relic from the ancient Indie Internet past. It's a vow that we'll all be together. Someday. :)

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LyinDan

4/14/2016 9:46:04 PM

Also, it's a floor wax AND a tasty dessert topping.

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Father Time

4/14/2016 10:58:02 PM

This is the kind of thread you see at IMP and pretty much nowhere else. The question is how to explain that to folks who aren't familiar with this scene.

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Noah Spaceship

4/14/2016 11:29:57 PM ---- Updated 4/14/2016 11:31:23 PM

Dan covered the FU part.

Of course I embrace discourse, and I respond with my two bits. Since I started the thread I feel kind of like the MC or host, if you will, and therefore oblige my self to keep this conversation engaging.

I read, thought it about, and replied to each of your thoughts (not necessarily in the order you presented them).

I specifically pointed out the droves of stifled artists who exist chasing the formulaic pop song hit, I think it is sad. That is my opinion.

In debate, argument and speech are actually quite synonymous, and I am presenting my argument, and yes it is a speech. I stated that. I hope to inspire people with my speech and argument.

I state I don't give a fuck about what 'you' think, which can be applied to you or anyone who who has an opinion positive or negative toward my art, because those opinions bear not on whether I like what I do or not. I do not write music to please a formulaic or opined critique, and that is the point of this post, to point out the quagmire of music science that so many artists find themselves ensnared within.

I also thanked you for participating in the discussion/argument/speech, and I mean that, I do appreciate you participating. I even gave you a 'haha, whip it out' at the beginning of my rant. I love an engaging argument.

So again, thank you for participating, Bob :)

and FU2!

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Noah Spaceship

4/14/2016 11:35:33 PM

Steve, agreed, I think Blonde on Blonde is a classic!

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Noah Spaceship

4/15/2016 12:04:13 AM ---- Updated 4/15/2016 12:10:55 AM

Here is a brief summary of how I tie this all together;

When indies break free from the chains of chasing the proverbial hit by following a 'hit maker' formula, I believe they incur risk, which leads to tension, which translates into edgy, and more often resulting in exciting, breakthrough innovation and at the end of the day, rewarding the listeners, who I have tried to bring here only to have them share with me why they don't frequent these places and their thoughts on indie sites in general and the problems with lofi mediocrity, which I totally agree with.

If we embrace our weaknesses and work with our strengths, our art will reflect that every time.

A strength we have as indies is not having to answer to the A&R machine that through contract dictate and homogenize/sterilize into strategically marketed scientifically and data backed, safe bets.

Our weakness is generally an inability to achieve the level of audio sonically that a production operating well into 5 figures can achieve traditionally.

Both of these issues I address in my argument.

Allow me a quick supplemental to this conversation to shore up my argument - In another thread I brought up the fact that great sounding sonic audio files are now far more attainable than 10-20 years ago and you (Bob) pushed against me on that, and I love it. I love that we can have differing views on these topics.

I think you are entitled to your opinion, but that won't stop me from pointing out why I disagree with you on several of your thoughts, and I tell you why. I am not trolling you, I took my time with well thought out counter thoughts, that is respect in my opinion.

//

- and much respect to all of you for commenting on this thread. I have really enjoyed this conversation.

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Noah Spaceship

4/15/2016 1:57:36 AM ---- Updated 4/15/2016 2:13:08 AM

I totally wanted to bite on Steve's ref to 'Kierkegaarde's blast on Hegel' - because I think it is completely relevant to this topic and patiently goads a subtle, but critical nuance that hides like a hundred 800 lb. gorillas.

With the inception of the internet age and millennials a driving force of socially trending allegories of romanticism, I feel we are waist deep in an emerging renascence.

I brought up a semantic dynamic with Stoneman about us as creators and the age old taboo of deeming oneself their own god of their own realities by referring to us as creators. This bears upon the foundation of individualism and the abstract nature of the dialectic being the thing. In other words, these kids can smell weakness and bullshit a mile away. They are motivated not so much by a familiar tune, but by a familiar tone, and that tone is self confidence in the face of opposition.

I have had many conversations as of late with a particular group of 20 somethings and I am in the middle of being recruited by this group of independent artists, designers, sculptors and animators who are inspired by my personal work and have requested not only to use my songs, but to expand on them and allow them to coin stories and themes from my songs. They have pointed out that they do not align with the old guard. They are not impressed by the current mainstream, let alone the diluted mass of cookie cutter songcrafting and shudder at the thought of having to use any of it in their projects. I consider this an affirmation of what I have thought about living the life of an indie and worked so hard to maintain that my best bet is to be myself and not get tripped up trying to fit the mold previously laid by countless others who have resigned to obscurity after years of chasing a pipe dream and littering these poor indie sites with forced mediocrity.

We are in a new paradigm and ironically, Kierkegaarde's blast on Hegel remains relevant.

We need a name for a post post post modern movement, haha

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Bob Elliott

4/15/2016 4:45:17 PM

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Noah Spaceship

4/16/2016 3:09:45 AM

haha, yes!!

FU :)

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