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Holo Lukaloa
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2/2/2008 8:00:24 PM
On the US government keeping every transmission, phone or internet, that takes place in US, and not just to stop terrorism.
Every citizen should stay informed.
Sad but True
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srm
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2/2/2008 8:11:25 PM
It's the reason I answer every phone call, "F*ck Bush!".
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Pulse Eternal
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2/2/2008 8:45:02 PM
LOL Srm :-D
If I post the words, 'bomb' 'construction' 'hijack' 'bush' 'pentagon' 'whitehouse' 'suicide' 'terror' 'spy' 'al queda terrorist manual', I wonder if I'll have my post logged?!!!
Maybe I'd have to go further and describe my expertise in bomb construction and my connection with Bin Laden..... oh, wait a minute, I forgot, Bush has a stronger connection with Al Queda and Bin Laden.
SuperPuss
 
=^.^=
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/2/2008 9:08:05 PM
Lets just say, for the minute every conversation...EVERY conversation in the United States is being recorded, do you honestly think someone is going to listen to each conversation? Are our lives that fricken interesting? ..they are looking for trigger words...
Who cares!!!! Listen all they want, they can hear my wife wants me to pick up Milk on the way home...
If it stops a bomb being exploded near me, have at it!!!!
That beings me to the ACLU? They do great work...but they need to get their priorities straight, see the big picture, and not Fuck with common sense issues.
When true civil liberties are being threatened they have my full backing. I understand the "slippery slope" philosophy, and I understand we must protect our rights, privacy, and liberties. That said, grandstanding on principle has the chance to hurt us all.
I do not need a lecture on civil rights and the dangers of government. What gets me is the same people espousing civil liberty infractions want Guns taken away from honest citizens by passing laws that criminals will ignore.......whats left? The good, law abiding people can't defend themselves against those without principle.
go ahead and fight for principle, but remember the big picture...and common sense.
Jeff
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/2/2008 9:09:56 PM
and yes SP, you just posted a few "Trigger words" .......... I don't know you :)
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LyinDan
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2/2/2008 9:20:23 PM
Some common sense from Ben Franklin, who was famous for having it:
Money
Remember that time is money.
Achievement
Little strokes fell great oaks.
Success
Plough deep while sluggards sleep.
Success
God helps them that help themselves.
Money
He that goes a borrowing goes a sorrowing.
War
There never was a good war or a bad peace.
Teamwork
We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
Wisdom
Early to bed and early to rise, Makes a man healthy, wealthy, and wise.
Strategy
Vessels large may venture more, But little boats should keep near shore.
Money
A man may, if he knows not how to save as he gets, keep his nose to the grindstone.
Time
Dost thou love life? Then do not squander time, for that is the stuff life is made of.
Success
Idleness and pride tax with a heavier hand than kings and parliaments. If we can get rid of the former, we may easily bear the latter.
Democracy
Our Constitution is in actual operation; everything appears to promise that it will last; but in this world nothing is certain but death and taxes.
Success
A little neglect may breed mischief: for want of a nail the shoe was lost; for want of a shoe the horse was lost; and for want of a horse the rider was lost.
***And most importantly to this conversation-
Freedom
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.
Common sense
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Pulse Eternal
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2/2/2008 9:22:20 PM
LOL Jeff :-D
SuperPuss
=^.^=
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srm
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2/2/2008 9:27:45 PM
For Jeff: I DO remember Common Sense- Thomas Paine had it, George Bush does NOT.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/2/2008 9:32:51 PM
"They that can give up essential liberty"
ESSENTIAL... exactly my point! Knocking down my door, directly "Targeting" my conversations...invading my privacy.....that may be essential. ESSENTIAL LIBERTY is the crux of the issue.
This thread? The issue is NON ESSENTIAL... I submit anything that goes over airwaves, telephone line, fiber optic cable, satellite, or the Internet...does not have implied Privacy. Now, if they bug my home?? Spy on me in situations where I expect privacy, I am with you.... there is a Line that should not be crossed.... the line should be drawn...with a fair amount of common sense.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/2/2008 9:40:10 PM
George Bush s one Man...with limits! And I am not talking about his Intellect....., the United States has separation of Powers for a reason.... The President of the United States does not wield Power in a Vacuum.
Legislative, judicial, and executive.
The President has power, but the office holder must have many willing accomplices to enact good, bad, evil. or indifference.. Bush alone is not the Problem. A new President,...Republican, Democrat,Independent, or Libertarian can not solve our problems alone. It must be a concerted effort..... free of Greed, agenda, or god forbid... Malice.
Respectfully,
Jeff
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srm
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2/2/2008 9:49:02 PM
Please don't misunderstand me, J. Unfortunately King George has no respect for the 'separation of powers' or the Constitution. His calls for the wiretapping of individuals, without warrant or check, is not what I call a respect for the law or a respect for individual rights.
Incidentally, I feel that ALL politicians are highly suspect, it just happens that G is the 'flavour of the month'.
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the Rivergods
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2/3/2008 7:50:19 AM
Anybody remember McCarthy? Hoover? Great Americans in their time. I recently heard strange rumblings about waterboarding the ACLU. Small tremors, true, but afoot in the "halls of power". Nixon might have even gotten away with his manifestation of paranoia were it not for informed citizens. Cheney was staff then, too. Was there he developed his theory of the "diminution of presidential powers".
"Every citizen should stay informed"....and involved. Rome didn't burn in a day.
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Holo Lukaloa
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2/3/2008 8:29:55 AM
Jeff Allen,
If you want to volunteer giving up your privacy, that's fine. I didn't volunteer mine.
Larree you should watch the link provided. Bush actually plans to veto the thing he says keeps the country safe from terrorists, thus by his standards allowing the country to be unsafe, in a push to get immunity for the telecom companies who are doing illegal acts for his purposes. If you aren't doing something wrong, why push so hard for immunity anyway?
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/3/2008 11:29:45 AM
Sometimes I feel Like I am talking to a waterboard :)
I am well aware of U.S. History, McCarthy witch hunts, and am keen on where we must limit Government intrusion in our lives.
Holo, again, there is no implied privacy when you use the airwaves...or any other medium that can be hacked. People have been listening to cell phone conversations on baby monitors for years.
I suggest energy be spent battling Terrorism, crime, gang violence, social illiteracy,and ignorance.
The evil doer only has a few more months left folks, then we can create conspiracies, talk of abuse of power, question intelligence, and bitch about someone else. That is unless your Guy/Gal wins. Then everything will be peachy!
For those that live in a Country other then the United States, I am sure you will bash our Government regardless of what we do.
Its amazing no one ever talks about the Money the United States spends throughout the world trying to help. Or, when their is a serious Military problem, the United States isl suddenly a great friend and ally.
*Footnote, I am a card carrying member of the common sense party. I do not support Bush, the Republicans, Democrats, Libertarian, or any Politician beholden to his/her donors. I respect every ones views, when I respond to these Blogs...Please know its nothing personal, I just believe its good to have a dialog. Often times, people shout at the wind and don't want a response. Open conversation with different point of views is a great thing in my mind.
I also admit to not having all the answers, and at times... may be full of Shit :)
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Holo Lukaloa
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2/3/2008 11:42:01 AM
There's also a difference between a hacker seeing your internet correspondences which doesn't usually happen if you have a good firewall, and your government by the people and for the people requisitioning your private correspondences breaking the law while doing so.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/3/2008 11:59:06 AM
The odds that the Government will listen to your conversation is astronomically slim...that is unless you are contemplating and planning the destruction of innocent lives. You have a greater chance of dying in a catastrophic event caused by an islamic or Home grown domestic terrorist.
It is impossible to monitor every conversation if that was a goal...it is both impractical and makes no sense. Those listening would be committed for boredom! I am trying to make that point... The stakes are very high! I can anticipate the next response.Are the stakes worth our privacy, civil liberties, bla blah blah..
There are those that think it is a violation of Civil liberties and privacy to be searched before getting on a commercial airplane. There are things that make sense, but I agree there are lines that should never be crossed. Where should the lines be drawn? It is a question to debate.
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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2/3/2008 12:20:59 PM
'For those that live in a Country other then the United States, I am sure you will bash our Government regardless of what we do.'
I think for most westernised populations the United States has been the leader of the "Free" world-------since WW2
the wording you use is interesting --------you say others will bash your Government, then you personalize it by saying------- "what WE do'"
When people stop criticising Governments ----the battle has been lost!
this is the very crux of a free world----
We still love the people of the USA ---and they are not the same as "the Administration"
The US administration spends a lot of time Bashing Govts that it doesn't agree with-----what is the difference here??
why would you take it personally---- Jeff (with respect) ?
Rob
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/3/2008 12:42:50 PM
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America" The preamble to the United States Constitution...
In a democracy, the Government represents the people as "we" elect them. And yes, I have no problem saying "we" as I am a Proud Citizen of the United States. Do I agree with everything my Government does? Hell no! That said, I am not taking the easy road by saying the United States people are separate and put the blame squarely on our Administration. We elected them, and must take the good with the Bad. Every four years we can try to clean house.
The internet is great because never before can people from different countries interact....some positive experiences and relationships can and have developed. I have also experienced some real negative bashing on the internet as well...for the most part I try to judge people on a one on one basis. No walls, nationality... Imagine if that were true, no religion too! You may say I'm a dreamer,... :)
I need to get out of here before I hurt myself by falling off my soapbox! :)
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Holo Lukaloa
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2/3/2008 12:45:44 PM
But did we truly elect Bush either time? There are quite a few indications that we did not. Imagine, his own brother got to participate in the arbitration. And what happened in Ohio the next election was even more ridiculous.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/3/2008 1:39:07 PM
We did have Punch ballots in Florida remember the Hanging Chads??? :) Oh are we going to rehash that??? ...Please. Yes Bush "stole" the 2004 election as well...give me a fricken break. As for the Popular Vote, sorry you have a problem with the electoral college.
The Senators and Representatives that write Laws, confirm judges, and voted to go to war are elected by the popular Vote.
MSNBC is completly to the Left on most issues, Holo I suggest you watch a few other channels because you are getting a slant. Maybe you do, but the last few things you posted were from MSNBC. Fox news is the same way, on the Conservative right on most issues .....there are agendas and each question can be framed to support a different given point at any given time.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/3/2008 1:44:10 PM
Oh I forgot Ohio, I was born there. :)
Bush won...get over it...Please concentrate on the present and Future.
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Holo Lukaloa
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2/3/2008 1:53:04 PM
Can you site any factual errors in Olbermann's comments or do you just dismiss everything said there with a wave of the hand?
I also watch O'Reilly.
I really don't understand how anybody can defend an illegal invasion of privacy. Your stance here is bizarre. I suppose people like you are the reason guys like Bush are able to stay in power, because anything they do is ok, by definition.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/3/2008 1:57:41 PM
Larree, the Ballots were punched through... and the chad is the part that used to be in the hole. It got so ridiculous, they were trying to infer the voters "Intent" if one was pushed in a bit. Also, people were too stupid to follow directions...an arrow is not obvious enough I guess....
Gore could not carry his home state of Tenessee, that is where he lost....
Anyway...I apologize for being so contentious on this thread.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/3/2008 2:00:17 PM
Ok Holo, If you want to go there.....Keith Olberman is a Showman....he is a Sportscaster by trade.
Please do not insult my intelligence, that does not fly.
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Holo Lukaloa
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2/3/2008 2:10:46 PM
I see, because he knows sports, he can't know politics. That actually makes sense because George W. Bush used to own the Texas Rangers, so he should've stayed out of government. yow
I think it's you that's insulting intelligence here by discrediting legitimate information by saying that's on MSNBC, therefore it's not real.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/3/2008 2:36:40 PM
Holo,
I do not dismiss, I listen to what is being presented, consider the source, look at the counter argument and make up of my own "Bizarre" mind.
I presented reasons for my stance, that you dismissed...
Lets look at the issue at hand and analyze the real threat of personal intrusion..
There are roughly 300 Million people in the Unites States, maybe 100 million of them have conversations that can be recorded, transcribed etc...
Of these, they may have two conversations/messages per day..be it on the Phone (Cell or Land line) or e-mails. This is very conservative, its probably more like 5-6.
Sticking with two, that is 200 million conversations per day ... One Billion, 400 million per week; Five Billion, 600 Million per Month....
There are roughly 6.6 Billion people on the planet. How many people do the State Department, FBI, CIA, Homeland Security have to monitor these conversations???
Now, sophisticated computer programs may scan these billions of conversations looking for patterns, trends, trigger words, etc.....this process will not harm your privacy unless you have something to hide.
The stakes are high...Nuclear dirty bombs....conventional nuclear bombs, chemical weapons, anthrax...
I believe we need tools to prevent a human nightmare.....I am willing to allow my conversations to be monitored, just as I allow my underwear to be perused at the security check point at the airport.
It is good to question, to keep a firm eye on government...I am not knocking that. There is however things that make sense....I believe this is one of them.
Yes we have Laws, and the rule of Law is very important......The Patriot act was passed..and made law. Now some believe it is going too far, I don't..... we choose to disagree. I want my Son to be safe...I want his family to be safe one day. Some costs need paid...I state again.......those Lines are open to debate. Sometimes Principle is at odds with common sense.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/3/2008 2:45:53 PM
And Please...Forget fricken Bush!! I am not talking about him, another Republican, or Democrat!!! Damn, a one track Mind! Again with The Bush!!!
Olberman is a sportscaster/Showman who found a Niche in Political journalism. He is on a Station that is aimed at set demographic with entrenched beliefs. He constructs his arguments to reach this audience, to sometimes inflame and get a "rise" This in turn translates to ratings. And yes, same is true of his Fox Counterpart. They target each other even tho they are on different networks...Its good for ratings.
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Holo Lukaloa
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2/3/2008 5:07:03 PM
Let's see what we've learned so far from your analysis:
1. Because there are a lot of telecom transmissions over the US, this therefore makes it ok for the government to illegally spy on its citizens.
2. This is presumably a good thing because tapping mine and your phonecalls and Emails is protecting us from nuclear destruction, even though, as you said, they couldn't come close to monitoring all these conversations anyway. (Nice logic there, which you label common sense!)
3. Absolutely true items reported on various wire services should be deemed null and void because the commentator knows sports and is on a news channel where you dismiss every word spoken, even though nobody who follows the news would question any of the facts he mentions and you can't make a case against any of the details either.
4. We need to drop the topic of President Bush because he has less than a year left (even though he's caused America to lose favor with much of the world by aggressive wars under false pretenses to settle his daddy's grudges and now he's even caused the US to be regarded as a nation that tortures, even by our close ally Canada). We should not concern ourselves with this.
Ok, then. (rolleyes)
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/3/2008 5:23:57 PM
Holo, you have been indoctrinated.....you have not read a damn thing I wrote, or tried to understand my point of view. as for #2 please take your narrow mind and you will find I was a little deeper then that, sorry I could not be more clear on the concept.
What a waste of Time... Have a good day.
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Holo Lukaloa
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2/3/2008 5:38:22 PM
Right I've been indoctrinated but the only thing you have to challenge the actual facts is that the guy reporting them knows sports on a network you dismiss. You offered zero information to counter anything in his message other than that, and that you're willing to allow every word you speak or type to be monitored.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/3/2008 6:05:35 PM
Wow, thats all you got from my posts???.you missed my whole point and picked up on a few non essential arguments. .. No point arguing any longer, we are not going anywhere.... And I am sure its frustrating to you as well.
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Holo Lukaloa
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2/3/2008 7:31:05 PM
No hard feelings, Jeff, at least on my part. Political discussions tend to go like this one did. Next week depending on who steps into the fray, we might be each other's running mate. yah
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The Man With No Band
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2/3/2008 7:38:44 PM
Jeff .... I see a very BIG problem with your argument .... you talk about our laws and how we elect people etc. etc. ... You say you back this system even though it has it's flaws ... Well that is fine .... but the problem lies in you deciding that it is O.K. for those in power to break the very laws the system, that you say you back, and start giving reasons why it is O.K. for them to do so because of your fear of the whatever ....
Now as a citizen here I say, yes we have to take the good with the bad when it comes to laws... if we don't like them then we follow the process that you have pointed out to change those laws ....
So your arguments do not hold water to me .... You say you don't care if those in power break the laws to fight what you perceive as terrorism ... and you say you back our system of government ... Which is it ? ... you have me confused ...
When the law says I have no right to privacy ... I guess I have to take it ... but when the laws say I do have that right .. I expect that right ... and just because you throw out reasons why it's for my own good, does not float with me...
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/3/2008 8:05:35 PM
"You say you don't care if those in power break the laws to fight what you perceive as terrorism "
I never said that!!!!!!.......I am speaking my own mind here, framing an argument by putting words in my mouth that I never said does not float either. I never said it was ok to break the Law.....Never.
The Patriot Act has been signed into law, and I am speaking in those terms.
No Problem...
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/3/2008 8:46:09 PM
Sam, I respect you Bro... There are two sides to each and every argument, I am just trying to present mine. I am not relying on MSNBC, FOX, Rush, Kieth, O'Reilly, Dr.Laura, Dr.Phil,...or Dr.Seuss....
This piece actually zooms in on a little yellow door where behind it..all of our conversations are being listened to....I stand by my argument why that is just plain stupid.
As far as the Law being broken, Olberman does a great job of puffing up his feathers while calling the President of the United States an Idiot. What he does not mention is all the facts....just the ones that support his Rhetoric. He used to use the same energy talking about the Coaches of our Local Sports teams in Los Angeles. I have been watching Olberman for years. He is a smart man, and he is getting ratings...he is Great at what he does!
Anyway, I was just responding to the Topic of this thread, in my own words. Right or wrong..they are MY words.
Peace.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/3/2008 9:05:13 PM
Holo, No Harm either, Political discussions often gather steam and Hot air :) .... can we go at it same time next Sunday????? NOT! :)~
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The Man With No Band
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2/3/2008 9:30:59 PM
"Who cares!!!! Listen all they want, they can hear my wife wants me to pick up Milk on the way home...
If it stops a bomb being exploded near me, have at it!!!!"
I may have taken you wrong Jeff ... but when I read the words above it says to me that you do not care what the government does, legal or otherwise ... just so long as it makes you safe ....
Sorry for the misinterpretation ....
I am also a citizen and I feel quite safe , without my governments interference ....
I'm a lot more worried about corruption in my own government causing me harm than any foreign source .... that is why it is not good to let government do as they please and just cater to part of the peoples wishes .... I have as much right to not like this, just as much as you support it....
They have gone way beyond the Patriot act and you know it just as well as everyone else .... your above statement shows that you are indifferent to it because it doesn't bother you if they use their powers in ways that the laws were not intended, because it fits your mold ...
If you truly believe in being American IMO you have to believe in the peoples right to a fair and just government ... not just when it fits your ideals...
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The Man With No Band
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2/3/2008 9:36:09 PM
Jeff ... I do want to say that I consider you my friend .... and I hope our discussion does not make any hard feelings .... Sometimes It's hard to see over the typed page what is the other person's intentions .... I am not pitted against you or saying I agree with anyone else .... Just making conversation and enjoying reading ....
Didn't mean to misinterpret your words .... I think we both want the same thing in the end ... :)
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/3/2008 9:42:58 PM
I can't argue with that Sam, through out this thread I stated that lines should be drawn, and they should be open to debate. We live in a strange world....a scary world with real threats. When I look at my One year old Son, I am both proud and a little scared.... I just feel we need tools to fight and prevent a tragedy, but I don't believe we should sell our soul in the process.
Anyway, good Thread. ... See ya Later!!!
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LyinDan
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2/4/2008 7:37:51 AM
Um, if what the Bushies were doing is not illegal, then why are they seeking immunity from prosecution for the Telephone Companies that did their bidding?
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/4/2008 8:05:34 AM
Dan,
I am not a lawyer, but I do know immunity is given often, and it does not always mean the person /entity is guilty.
This issue is ripe for politcal grandstanding, the telecom companies could be in court for years defending themselves against charges with Merit..and some with no merit. If you listen to Olberman, nothing is happening in a back room with regards to Immunity, it is being sought through legal channels and committee, and it is refers to a Law in place that may have been abused... I do not dispute that this may have occured, but I do not know that the intent was Malicious.
This issue is more complicated then the cut and dry finger pointing being presented here. But remember this, if Telecom companies are stuck in court...sued for Billions of dollars...who do you think is ultimately going to pay the Bill? The consumers ...that means you and Me! !!!
As I said, I don't have all the answers...and my disclaimer is I could be full of it :)
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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2/4/2008 12:08:22 PM
Jeff---
You are articulate in your defence of authority---in some other countries the people rule the Government --not the other way around---you seem to be fearful of things that might happen, that the Government will protect you from---
Of course this was the modus operandi of the Bush administration from the word go---to put fear into their citizens and then protect them----but 9/11 happened on their watch----?
We are all affected by voilence of Man against Man---but in the rest of the world we don't get to vote for the president of the USA-------!!!
Bushco still holds the power, and many of us out here, believe he may still attack Iran b4 the next elections --what is your opinion on that?
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/4/2008 12:32:14 PM
My Logic on why the immunity is being sought is confirmed here, by a Democrat.
Feinstein backs legal immunity for telecom firms in wiretap cases
Bob Egelko, Chronicle Staff Writer
Friday, November 9, 2007
Sen. Dianne Feinstein said Thursday that she favors legal immunity for telecommunications companies that allegedly shared millions of customers' telephone and e-mail messages and records with the government, a position that could lead to the dismissal of numerous lawsuits pending in San Francisco.
In a statement at a hearing of the Senate Judiciary Committee, which is considering legislation to extend the Bush administration's electronic surveillance program, Feinstein said the companies should not be "held hostage to costly litigation in what is essentially a complaint about administration activities."
Silverwood "Of course this was the modus operandi of the Bush administration from the word go---to put fear into their citizens and then protect them----but 9/11 happened on their watch----?"
Yes it happened on their watch,I hope another tragedy is avoided...they need the tools to do so...It is what I am talking about! I can protect my family....Man to Man.....I cannot protect against a Nuclear explosion...I need a little help on that front Thank you...
As for IRAN? I believe them to be a threat...hell yes. And so should the rest of the civilized world. I hope an invasion is not imminent, ....... The United States will not go to war without the authority of the United States Congress, the same congress that voted to go to war with Iraq.. Iran should not be allowed to gain Nuclear weapons ...period. Have you heard Mahmoud Ahmadinejad??? Wow......
For the record, I hate the Iraq war, and want it to end...unfortunately the consequences are great, a pull out would be catastrophic without a cohesive exit strategy. I am not a fan of Bush, I want to make that perfectly clear.
Jeff
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Holo Lukaloa
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2/4/2008 12:41:23 PM
Whether or not Dianne Feinstein (a democrat you say, like one democrat voids the issue) is willing to vote to let the telecom companies off the hook probably to trade favor for some bill she wants help on passing does not change the fact that the administration was not authorized to do this, legally.
It's breaking the law. This kind of comprehensive collection of transmissions is not authorized in the Patriot Act either. Somebody needs to pay for this and it needs to be stopped, immediately. There are no rationales that even come close to justifying this.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/4/2008 12:46:34 PM
I also want to add, the United Nations was involved as well....The Unitd States did not go to War without authority.
Of course, Bushed Duped everyone with false claims of weapons of Mass destruction. ...That is open to debate, but I believed Iraq had them, and so did most of the World. Anyway, I don't want to argue that fact, I hate the Iraq War.....
Ok, I am done. I have gone on faaaar too long. I apologize for that, I am not an argumentative person , but I do like to discuss extremly important issues from time to time. Thanks for endulging me, and Holo keep on posting, I think we can all have a healthy dialog from time to time. In the end, the world is a very small place! I think its great that we have people from all over the world on IAC. We have music and Humanity in common :) ! I believe we are very lucky to be living in an age where we can express ideas. Whether we agree or not is not at issue, what is important is that we express our views, and foster respectful communication.. As the stakes are high, emotions can and will be involved..for better or worse :)
Regards,
Jeff
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/4/2008 12:58:06 PM
Holo, did I ever say it Voided the issue? I posted the article becuase it supported a previous post of mine. I believe the article demonstrates that the issue is more complex then a blanket statement. Please don't take my words and "infer" what my point is. I am trying to state them in my own words as clearly as I know how.
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The Man With No Band
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2/4/2008 1:05:09 PM
Jeff ... you are right ... these issues are important ... and it's great to read how people see these issues ... I have one more blab in me myself...
This is the first line of the President's Oath ....
"I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."
and some how our leaders have developed the attitude that these words only apply to them when they see fit ... It is not just Bush ... we have had 43 U.S. Presidents and if truth be known I would venture to guess 75% of them (or more) failed to uphold the very first line of that Oath ...
They all say ... well times are different now ... that is B.S. ... I swear that power corrupts their brains ... they say "We're doing this in the best interest of the stupid masses, because they don't know how to protect themselves" ... It was the Native Americans ... and the Marxist ... and the Commies ... and the Socialist ... and the Blah Blah Blah ... for heavens sake it was even the Rock-N-Rollers at one point
I will use Bush as an example because he IS the current President .... He smugly stands in front of Congress and basically tells them he is the President and he can do whatever the hell he wants .... that is not the system that was laid out by our Country's forefathers ... and not the system the American public should be forced to tolerate ...
He is not following the very oath that this Country has demanded of our leader ... How do I have faith in something like that ?
The usual response I get to a comment like that is "Hey, if ya don't like it here buddy, then why don't ya go try living in some other country" ...
What I'd like to see is a response that would make me want to have faith in my Country, the normal response does not, it only shows me that people are afraid to actually admit they are being suckered ...
Also it has been stated that Congress voted to go to war in Iraq .... Well they voted that way because the Office of the President of the United States flat out lied to Congress and the American people ... Congress voted to go to war because they thought they owed it to the American public to do so on the information that they had been told ... which was nothing more than a pack of lies ... the office of the President knew they never would have voted to go to war if they told the truth .... That is just sick .... They don't trust the system that you keep standing up for ... Something wrong with that picture ...
and Remember that same office that you stand behind, had John Lennon and many others illegally monitored in ways we may never know about ...
because they thought John Lennon was a threat .. Bwahahahahahahahahahahah ... !!!!!!!!
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