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Holo Lukaloa
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7/14/2008 9:15:41 AM
McCain is a fool. How could anyone vote for him?
Wondering out loud. :>)
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Holo Lukaloa
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7/14/2008 10:00:29 AM
You're a broken record. Get a new routine. You're actually part of the problem, Mr. Impotent voter.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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7/14/2008 10:05:40 AM
---- Updated 7/14/2008 10:07:22 AM
I am a fiscal conservative, and more liberal on social issues. So I tend to gravitate to Moderate candidates... (if they exist) When I say fiscal conservative I am talking about fiscal responsibility with Spending within budgets and means, not tax cuts for the rich
I Like Obamas communication qualities, and an apparent leadership quality. (we shall see) The current administration has blown the budget, so if Obama can spend within reason I would support his Presidency.
McCain is more moderate, however I am a little worried about his judgement. His latest comment about cigarettes killing Iranians was ill advised to say the least. It makes the U.S look like we want all Iranians dead..... very stupid.
Yes Holo, he makes me shake my head. Since I am in California, my vote for President usually never matters as the state usually votes democrat..I may vote for the props and representatives and simply leave my vote for President blank. :)
I did not vote for Bush's second term, but I could not vote for Kerry....or Gore.
Obama is running a smart campaign, he is wooing moderates by appearing to talk about personal responsibility, something democrats in general fail to do. I hope it is not all talk.
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The Black Orchids
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7/14/2008 10:13:04 AM
do we really need political threads on this site?
It's getting old fast, and not what I'm here for.
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Nerol
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7/14/2008 10:20:57 AM
I agree with Nobody. Obama lost my faith and trust with his recent FISA bill bullshit. He rolled over for a lame duck president and approved a bill giving retroactive immunity to companies that broke the law at the behest of the president.
I got caught up in Obamamania too and truly thought he was different, but he's no different than the rest of 'em.
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Holo Lukaloa
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7/14/2008 10:30:29 AM
He can still press criminal charges, Nerol. It's not as simple as you make it. The real culprit was Pelosi I think.
Speak for yourself Black Orchids, stop your whining. What you're "here for" is not a univeral value. You're a rock band, I don't get that you're so uptight about the range of subject matter.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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7/14/2008 10:33:57 AM
---- Updated 7/14/2008 10:36:19 AM
The companies followed a request from the Govenment, punishing them makes no sense to me. I assure you, if My company got a request from The Federal Government today I would follow it. The Government makes law, and can punish with penalties. I would not be thinking if their request was constitutional.
There are those that say Income tax is unconstitutional. Perhaps I should withold my companies income tax? Or my personal income tax for that matter? If a Law was broken, punish those that made the request, not those who followed becuase they thought they had no other choice. What did the telecommunication companies gain other then bad press?
Black Orchid, with all due respect ignore this post if it bothers you. There are many other posts to view, as well as hundreds of pages of music on this site for you to look at. These are personal blogs, the subjects range from music, recording, politics, and the meaning of Life and death :) I understand your point, but I don't see this being a big deal. Its a blip On IAC.
Peace
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Jeff Allen Myers
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7/14/2008 10:39:54 AM
Obama's Lead Has Faded, Poll Says
I guess there are still many voting for McCain
Posted: 2008-07-14 12:13:03
Filed Under: Elections News, Barack Obama, John McCain
(July 14) -- A new Newsweek poll shows that Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama leads Republican rival John McCain by just 3 percentage points, a statistical dead heat -- and a sharp drop from the 15-point lead Obama held in June. Why the sudden shift? Obama has run up against challenges since clinching his party's nomination in June, but McCain's big surge is tough to explain.
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Jerry Kabat
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7/14/2008 10:40:26 AM
The Byrds I Want To Grow Up To Be A Politician By R. McGuinn
J. Levy
G A7
I want to grow up to be a politician
D7 G
And take over this beautiful land
G A7
I want to grow up to be a politician
D7
And be the old USA'a number one man
G A7
I always be tough but I'll never be scary
D7 G
I want to shoot guns or butter my bread
G A7
I want to build towns or conservate the prairie
D7 G
And you can believe the future's ahead
C G G/F# En
I'll give the young the right to vote as soon as they mature
A7 D7
But spare the rod and spoil the child to help them feel secure
C G G/F# Em
And if I win election day I might give you a job
A7 D7
I'll sign the bill to help the poor to show I'm not a snob
G A7
I'll open my doors I'm chargin' no admission
D7 G
And you can be sure I'll be glad to give you my hand
G A7
I want to grow up to be a politician
D7 G
And take over this beautiful land
C G A7 D7
C G G#F Em
I'll make you glad you got me in with everything I do
A7 D7
And I'll defend until the end the old red white and blue
G A7
I want to grow up to be a politician
D7 G
And take over this beautiful land
D7 G
And take over this beautiful land
D7 G
And take over this beautiful land
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Jeff Allen Myers
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7/14/2008 10:49:46 AM
There ya go! :) The Political post is Musical :)
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The Black Orchids
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7/14/2008 11:10:18 AM
Jeff,
please don't tell me "if you don't like it don't read it" nonsense,
I'm a musician/song writer who paid for his account here,
and I've been on the net since 97. I know how it works.
I would like to think most of us are trying to get ahead
with our careers.
Why not take the politics, religion, and other off topic ideals and move them to a message board designed for that? I don't like supporting any of this.
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Holo Lukaloa
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7/14/2008 11:17:29 AM
---- Updated 7/14/2008 11:18:45 AM
Black Orchids,
I don't see anybody else here making special demands because they're supporting the site.
I'm sure there are many listeners who come here to read the interesting topics and would never bother if it was all promo schmomo. You should try writing an interesting topic sometime yourself. I remember one topic where you talked about your song but since then it's just been boring promo.
'How it works', that statement is ridiculous. As far as I know, there's never been a hybrid front page blog environment like this one. The reason IAC is great is because it's different from the rest.
Artists who are strictly about "trying to get ahead in their careers" are dull. Your music is way better than your pipeline persona, I must say!
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The Black Orchids
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7/14/2008 11:30:51 AM
QUOTE:
"You should try writing an interesting topic sometime yourself. I remember one topic where you talked about your song but since then it's just been boring promo."
Ok, thank you for letting me know everything since has been boring promo.
I really appreciate this information coming from you, even though I felt my fans like to know what we're doing.
Thank you so much, you should be on the board of directors at IAC,
and teach all of us musicians here how to act. Please write it down.
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The Man With No Band
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7/14/2008 11:43:11 AM
Doug .... wrong side of the bed ? .... The front page blogs are currently all musically related except this one ..... and yet this is the one you comment on ?
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Jeff Allen Myers
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7/14/2008 11:44:25 AM
---- Updated 7/14/2008 11:45:57 AM
With all due respect once again Black, your complaining about it makes this Blog alot more distastful to anyone cruising the IAC.
You are not supporting Holos Blog, that is rediculous. You are paying for a service at IAC, and I believe you are getting more then your moneys worth.
Yes it is quite simple, if you don't like it, don't read it. Turn the chanel as it were. I don't like half the shit Direct TV puts on, but I am very happy with the service...and yes when I don't like something I ignore it. The blog does not dominate this site, especially Holos political posts. This is America, he has a right to his opinion. There used to be a time when Musicians stated their opinions...Lennon, Dylan...
I guess if Lennon were still alive he would be banned from posting here. We should be able to share ideas as well as music. I think the Pipeline is a great outlet for that, as long as we respect each other.
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satch
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7/14/2008 12:10:51 PM
Hahaha - if Lennon were alive there's no way he'd bother posting here - he would be going for a much bigger audience :)
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Jeff Allen Myers
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7/14/2008 12:27:47 PM
---- Updated 7/14/2008 12:29:23 PM
Hahaha - if Lennon were alive there's no way he'd bother posting here - he would be going for a much bigger audience :)
Of course, I am being hypohetical.... First of all He is Dead :) I was trying to make the point that he was very outspoken . If the Internet was around in the sixties, he would no doubt have a blog. What if IAC were around in 1961 when the Beatles were still pulling all nighters in Hamburg? :)
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SqurlyMurly
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7/14/2008 1:36:26 PM
"Holo? Enough with your insults. First of all, regarding impotence... I am 50, and I am quite confident that YOU will probably be bald AND on viagra before me."
I think Holo may have been trying to infer that your impotence refers to Electile Dysfunction, not to be confused with Erectile Dysfunction. : )
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Jerry Kabat
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7/14/2008 1:49:29 PM
Chicago (From the Songs For Beginners album)
Am
So Your Brother's Bound And Gagged
Am
And They've Chained Him To A Chair
G Am
Won't You Please Come To Chicago Just To Sing
Am
In A Land That's Known As Freedom How Can Such A Thing Be Fair
G Am
Won't You Please Come To Chicago For The Help That We Can Bring
G F Em G F Em
We Can Change The World Rearrange The World
D Am
It's Dying - To Get Better
Am
Politicians Sit Yourselves Down, There's Nothing For You Here
G Am
Won't You Please Come To Chicago For A Ride
Am
Don't Ask Jack To Help You `Cause He'll Turn The Other Ear
G Am
Won't You Please Come To Chicago Or Else Join The Other Side
G F Em G F Em
We Can Change The World Rearrange The World
D
It's Dying - If You Believe In Justice
D
Dying - And If You Believe In Freedom
D
Dying - Let A Man Live His Own Life
D G F
Dying - Rules And Regulations, Who Needs Them Open Up The Door
Am
Somehow People Must Be Free I Hope The Day Comes Soon
G Am
Won't You Please Come To Chicago Show Your Face
Am
From The Bottom Of The Ocean To The Mountains Of The Moon
G Am
Won't You Please Come To Chicago No One Else Can Take Your Place
G F Em G F Em
We Can Change The World Rearrange The World
D
It's Dying - If You Believe In Justice
D
Dying - And If You Believe In Freedom
D
Dying - Let A Man Live His Own Life
D G F
Dying - Rules And Regulations, Who Needs Them Open Up The Door
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Nerol
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7/14/2008 2:32:57 PM
Jeff, if you broke the law, and you went to court with the defense of "they told me to break the law," you do realize that it would not hold up, right? Nor is it morally correct. When my kid did something wrong, the "they made me do it" excuse held no water with me. Same here. The president cannot order a company to break the law, and the law says you need a search warrant to wiretap someone's phone line. The telcos are aware of this. The income tax analogy does not work because the law says we pay income taxes. If the president told a company to not pay their income taxes for whatever reason, I doubt they'd listen.
But I digress....the point is that Obama rolled over and gave a lame duck president with less than 7 months in office what he wanted, even though he (supposedly) disagress with it. It really was a trust buster for me.
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The CODE
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7/14/2008 2:36:36 PM
Maybe Obama believes that he will NEVER be President??????
(For a lot of reasons!)
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Jeff Allen Myers
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7/14/2008 4:17:59 PM
Nerol Please do not insult my intelligence, do you honestly think I am that stupid to reason that way?
I am fully aware ignorance of the law is no defense.....
I am the Finance Controller of a Multimillion dollar corporation. This is not as simple as you make it out. There are cut and dry laws, then there are are laws that often times need sorted out in court after the fact. This is the Government doing the asking... The legislature passes the Laws, the President signs them into law, and the Supreme court decides their adherence to the constitution.
If you changed your mind on Obama based on this, welcome to the real world. I am sure he will let you down many more times, such is the nature of the Beast of Politics.
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Talkie Toaster
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7/14/2008 4:18:12 PM
Can't we all just get along and have some toast?
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Jeff Allen Myers
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7/14/2008 4:38:24 PM
I love Toast :)
Sorry Nerol...sometimes I have bad days :)
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The Man With No Band
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7/14/2008 4:40:05 PM
Breaking the Law does nothing to piss me off, hell that's how this Country, as well as many other Countries around the world got their start ... but that does not mean those that do, should be immune from the very judicial system designed to argue these things ...
I have to agree with Loren on this one ...
Jeff on your statement ...
"The companies followed a request from the Government, punishing them makes no sense to me. I assure you, if My company got a request from The Federal Government today I would follow it. The Government makes law, and can punish with penalties. I would not be thinking if their request was constitutional."
Their is a bit of a problem I see with this logic ...
1. if you owned one of these powerful companies, you would have on hand a very large and sophisticated legal department ....
2. that legal department knows very well that if not totally illegal, then certainly the request were out of the ordinary and were bound to raise red flags inside the department. They have been trained and know what the company can and cannot legally do as far as wire taps and are in charge of making those decisions for the company. They know in this country YOU NEED A WARRANT ! (as should be)
3. your obligation as a telecom provider is first and foremost to your clients, the paying public, NOT the Federal Government.
4. they covered this up ... built secret rooms ... used unorthodox methods to do what they were doing ... because they knew very well, THEY WERE BREAKING THE LAW !
The whole thing stinks and is the type of thing that was used by folks like HITLER ...
When a Government tells you they are doing things to protect you and for your own good... history has shown that they are up to NO GOOD !
The people, at least here in the U.S. are supposed to BE the government, not be bullied by it ...
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Holo Lukaloa
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7/14/2008 4:45:52 PM
Larree your last girlfriend told me you're impotent. She said you would remember her, her name is Joan and you got together after a concert in 1983. ::>)
I too was annoyed by the FISA bill passage but I simply believe Obama has plans for Bush's illegal activities once he gets elected.
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Nerol
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7/14/2008 4:48:36 PM
Jeff said:
Nerol Please do not insult my intelligence, do you honestly think I am that stupid to reason that way?
I am fully aware ignorance of the law is no defense.....
I am the Finance Controller of a Multimillion dollar corporation. This is not as simple as you make it out. There are cut and dry laws, then there are are laws that often times need sorted out in court after the fact. This is the Government doing the asking... The legislature passes the Laws, the President signs them into law, and the Supreme court decides their adherence to the constitution.
I know there are cut and dry laws. One of them is the 4th Amendment of the US Constitution. Another one is the FISA Court laws which were set up in the 70's to prevent a repeat of Nixon-era government spying on American citizens who he happened to not like (like antiwar people, for instance). These need no sorting out. And the law said that due to the sensitive nature of this kind of thing, the president could order a wiretap without a warrant PROVIDED he asked for one within 72 hours. So a mechanism was there. Bush did end runs around it by not asking for a warrant at all. And he did it with the telco's help. Against the advice of then attorney general John Ashcroft, I might add, who worried because the program was of questionable legality. This is not a case of "Gee, I wonder if this is legal. Let's try it and see what the court says."
Now, I did not mean any of this as an insult. You are the finance controller for a multi-million dollar corporation, and that is great. But I fail to see how that changes anything here. The Nuremberg defense of "We were just following orders" doesn't cut it.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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7/14/2008 5:26:10 PM
---- Updated 7/14/2008 5:27:08 PM
I had a long conversation on the merits of this some time ago on an earlier thread ..and laid out the statistics of what your odds are that anyone is listening...much less cares about your conversation.
This is not a Black and white issue, there are many gray areas here. None of us has all the information. As a matter of economics, if the telecom companies were punished who would ultimately pay.... you and I.
Yes Sam, I agree they have legal departments....which lends me to believe they 'thought" they were on the right side of the law. What did they gain???
Ultimately, if an attack is aborted great...They can listen to my wife calling for me to pick up Milk all they want.
That's just me, I understand the whole slippery slope theory and why we must be on guard for Government intrusion and trampling of our rights.
The 4th amendment can be amended...and that is something we all need to watch closely.
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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7/14/2008 5:56:33 PM
according to our news here in NZ -----!!!
--
Fanny Mae & Freddy Mac, two of the largest govt backed financial institutions in the US are going bust-----??
The world is plunging into recession if not depression?
Neither of these guys (Obama or McCain ) will inherit a healthy economy, so what can they do?
Ewe picked an 'oil man' to run the world-----he'll do OK!!!!!!
laughing all the way to the bank-----
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The Man With No Band
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7/14/2008 5:57:08 PM
---- Updated 7/14/2008 6:15:59 PM
I had a long conversation on the merits of this some time ago on an earlier thread ..and laid out the statistics of what your odds are that anyone is listening...much less cares about your conversation.
The odds are not the issue ... the issue is the publics right to privacy ... people died for these rights ... they are written into our laws ... if you want to give up your right fine, just don't expect me to roll over so easily ... What right will you give up next ? ... What is the purpose of living in a free country, when you give up your freedoms ?
This is not a Black and white issue, there are many gray areas here. None of us has all the information. As a matter of economics, if the telecom companies were punished who would ultimately pay.... you and I.
Why is it anytime the government wants to screw people, do people buy into this "Gray" area ... Try as an individual walking into court and explaining to the judge that their is a "Gray" area in your case ... Bwahahahhahah ! ... As far as who pays for it, that is a poor excuse not to punish the guilty ... Who pays for all the criminals locked up now ? ... and who is paying for these wire taps now ?
Yes Sam, I agree they have legal departments....which lends me to believe they 'thought" they were on the right side of the law. What did they gain???
Are you kidding me ... or yourself ? .... :) ... and what did they gain ? ... Well, when the next lucrative contract comes up for bids on a government telecommunications project, and mysteriously get awarded to those that cooperated then I guess we will see ....
Ultimately, if an attack is aborted great...They can listen to my wife calling for me to pick up Milk all they want.
That's just me, I understand the whole slippery slope theory and why we must be on guard for Government intrusion and trampling of our rights.
The 4th amendment can be amended...and that is something we all need to watch closely.
Why would they bother amending it ? ... They have proven it is worthless and they can walk all over it at their leisure ....
Personally that is far more scary to me than any "attack" from an outsider ...
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Nerol
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7/14/2008 6:19:56 PM
---- Updated 7/14/2008 6:26:01 PM
There is no gray area. It is illegal for a wiretap to be placed on a phone without a warrant. That is black and white and not debatable.
Then in the 70's the FISA court was set up to expedite the government's ability to begin a wiretap immediately if need be...with the condition being that the government then had 72 hours to ask to request a warrant from FISA.
So.....a legal mechanism was indeed in place to allow warrantless wiretaps for a full 72 hours before the government had to provide evidence and request a warrant.
What happened here is that the law was ignored, and warrantless wiretaps were conducted indefinitely.
Now, all I am saying is that our government is bound by the same constitutional laws as the rest of us are. If you are saying that the PResident should have latitude and be able to pick and choose what laws to obey and when, then I have to say that I wholeheartedly disagree with you. That is tyranny. What is the point of being a constitutional republic if our constitution is not obeyed?
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Jeff Allen Myers
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7/14/2008 6:21:44 PM
---- Updated 7/14/2008 6:25:11 PM
Sure, the 4th amendment is worthless... Talk about a slippery slope.
Sure they did it for the back end payoff...
Ok, if you say so Sam....
Instead of putting my words in quotes and tearing them all down, just simply write...
"Jeff you are full of Shit"
Same meaning... I will buy That. ")
"It is illegal for a wiretap to be placed on a phone without a warrant.:
I must have missed when the Men in black came in and put a tap on my kitchen phone.
There are plenty of other things to worry about...this is not one of them.
Sam I will save you time...
"There are plenty of other things to worry about...this is not one of them."
Jeff you are full of Shit... ;)
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Nerol
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7/14/2008 6:24:53 PM
Another case in point is Karl Rove's ignoring a congressional subpoena under orders from the President. I don't know if I'm madder at that or our do-nothing Democratic congress letting him get away with it.
A president cannot tell someone it's ok to ignore a subpoena. A subpoena is a legal summons that cannot be ignored. You try doing that and you'll wind up in jail.
Now, if Karl Rove wanted to claim executive privilege and not talk once he was there, that is of course his choice. But simply ignoring it is yet another example of this administration's total and blatant contempt for the law. It simply does whatever it wants. And what's worse is, the democratic congress that was supposed to fix this and hold the feet to the fire and finally bring some accountability to our government is just letting it all happen....
I'm with Larree. Nobody for president.
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Holo Lukaloa
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7/14/2008 6:25:28 PM
Nerol,
If you followed Obama closer you would know that he's going to hammer all this bs when he gets elected. His vote on FISA didn't matter, it was political, but when he gets elected all assaults on our constitution will be dealt with.
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Nerol
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7/14/2008 6:31:06 PM
"It is illegal for a wiretap to be placed on a phone without a warrant.:
I must have missed when the Men in black came in and put a tap on my kitchen phone.
There are plenty of other things to worry about...this is not one of them.
So because it didn't happen to you, it's ok? Wow, nice. Rights can be trampled as long as they are someone else's.. How encouraging.
Unlike you, I am indignant when our government breaks the law. Regardless of whether or not I'm a victim of it or not.
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Nerol
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7/14/2008 6:32:41 PM
His vote on FISA didn't matter, it was political, but when he gets elected all assaults on our constitution will be dealt with.
Yeah, right. Oh don't worry, he's just being political right now...Later, oh boy, later...
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The Man With No Band
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7/14/2008 7:00:07 PM
---- Updated 7/14/2008 7:03:48 PM
Jeff ... please don't turn this into a personal thing ... we are all adults here and you have every right to your opinion ...
The reason I put your words in quotes is to point out the differences I have with them ... as I didn't know disagreeing was something you were against ..
What I don't understand (and am trying to) is how you say that you support your government and believe in it's laws and yet you so freely say you don't care if Bush and his cronies follow the law or not ! (As long as it protects you from a boogie man that you believe in and I do not) ...
If this was a legal thing to do, Bush would have followed the law and obtained the warrants to do so and there would be no discussion ... I for one think the courts would have found his request unreasonable and that is why he didn't bother getting them ...
Just because it is something that you don't mind, if you believe in the system like you say you do, I think you should be appalled by these actions ...
If he went to court and had the law on his side then whether I liked it or not I would of had to accept it ... that is the way the system that you and I BOTH believe in is supposed to operate ...
...and as far as getting palms greased ... one would have to be totally blind not to see that this happens every day in our Country ...
Loren said it better right here ...
Now, all I am saying is that our government is bound by the same constitutional laws as the rest of us are. If you are saying that the PResident should have latitude and be able to pick and choose what laws to obey and when, then I have to say that I wholeheartedly disagree with you. That is tyranny. What is the point of being a constitutional republic if our constitution is not obeyed?
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Beth Fridinger
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7/14/2008 7:15:20 PM
I hate to see bickering on here.
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LyinDan
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7/14/2008 7:57:06 PM
Black Orchids, ya better boil it
I dipped your toothbrush in the toilet...
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Jeff Allen Myers
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7/14/2008 8:02:36 PM
---- Updated 7/14/2008 8:03:42 PM
Sam I used a smiley face :) It was my sad attempt at humor I suppose.
Sorry, we will just have to disagree here,
I always get a kick at the shortsighted finger pointing at the evil Bush... The power of the presidency is limited. There are three Branches ..all are complicit....
.
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The Man With No Band
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7/14/2008 8:11:52 PM
Cheers Mate !!!
I would also like to say that I would never think you were full of shit ... but wouldn't mind a bit if you thought that I was .... as I often am ... :)
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Holo Lukaloa
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7/14/2008 8:38:49 PM
Larree, of course I wish he would've voted against that bill. It's a fact though that his vote wouldn't have mattered. When he is president with a Democratic congress, that is when the foot will be put down. It sure isn't going to happen while Bush is still in power.
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LyinDan
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7/14/2008 9:53:51 PM
After Obama is elected, there should be a treasure trove of criminal accounting lying in wait. Let's get him elected first. Politics is (wait for it...here it comes...) the art of compromise. That's how the system works. The alternative is dictatorship.
Now. Let's agree to discuss this MY way.
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Nerol
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7/15/2008 4:21:51 AM
I always get a kick at the shortsighted finger pointing at the evil Bush... The power of the presidency is limited. There are three Branches ..all are complicit....
Well, that's how it used to be. Co-equal branches of government with a very good system of checks and balances. Until 2001. Warrants? Who needs them? This law? We'll take care of that with a signing statement. Habeas courpus? Bad idea. Treatment against the law here? Then do it overseas. Secretly.
Come on, man...
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Nerol
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7/15/2008 4:27:31 AM
Larree, of course I wish he would've voted against that bill. It's a fact though that his vote wouldn't have mattered. When he is president with a Democratic congress, that is when the foot will be put down.
Principle ALWAYS matters, even when a vote doesn't. And sorry, as part of the democratic congress that hasn't put its foot down yet (what's it waiting for), why should I think Obama will put it down later? He had his chance to put it down now, at least in principle.
Dan, I love ya, but FISA was not something to compromise on. Especially the retroactive immunity provision of it. Obama blew it with this, at least for me. I will indeed vote Libertarian come November.
Now we know the party has at least 2 votes. :)
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Nerol
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7/15/2008 4:49:56 AM
Now that Obama has all but clinched the nomination., he can't possibly get anything done. He now has to support all the things Hillery wanted done, while making sure that he seems Conservative enough to attract Republicans who don't like McCain. If Obama tries to be different, he risks alienating long-time democrat supporters, If he tries to be the same he risks alienating all the people who want to vote for him for change.
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