| | | |
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/17/2008 9:36:23 AM
The truth about McCain and his twin, Bush.
Don't believe the current dummydown propaganda
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/17/2008 9:49:40 AM
With all due respect, Lawrence, anybody who can't tell the difference between Obama and the other 2 probably can't tell the difference between Jimi Hendrix and Yanni.
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/17/2008 10:16:59 AM
so JFK is Jimmy Carter? FDR is Michael Dukakis? RFK is Bob Dole?
|
|
Jerry Kabat
|
7/17/2008 11:23:17 AM
---- Updated 7/17/2008 7:51:18 PM
I'm going to interject here guys.
All politicians are full of BS and the only thing they care about is getting in office so they can get their security when they are finish. ie: lifelong salery and health care. Gee do we get that, no we get S.S. if we are lucky. and have a bit left over to get a hotdog and a movie. They don't give a rats ass about you and I or the good of the country. If you think they do you have been led down Primrose Lane.
They are puppets to people like the Rockafellas and their big oil machine. Nothing will get done that they campaign for. It's all just a big lie to get into office for prestige and nothing more.
Sorry to burst your bubbles....
Furthermore; Obama has been in office for Illinois for less then two years and hasn't done one thing for this state. The minite he was elected they started talking about him running for Pres. That's the truth. He's not worth the dirt I spit on. I'm not saying I like McCane either I feel he's just another useless piece of fodder.
I hate politicians! All they do is paint a rosy picture.
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
7/17/2008 12:04:50 PM
---- Updated 7/17/2008 12:07:30 PM
Holo, You should lobby Olbermann to run for president as you seem to hold his rhetoric in high regard. your name should be Holbermann..
Each one is nothing but a pandering politician.....
Here is a list of flip flops posted on the internet ..... I believe they will say and do anything to get elected, The polls tell them what to say and think.
Barack Obama:
Public Financing of Campaign
FISA
John McCain:
FISA
The Bush Tax Cuts
Barack Obama:
The Cuba Embargo
Iraq War Timetable
John McCain:
Immigration Reform
Equal Pay for Women
Barack Obama:
Decriminalizing Marijuana
NAFTA
John McCain:
Privatizing Social Security
Offshore Drilling
"Depending on who is compiling the list, the flip-flop charges can scroll on into carpal tunnel eternity. These instances seemed like the most credible, if not the ones most discussed."
.
|
|
Nerol
|
7/17/2008 12:46:50 PM
The Republican and Democrat parties are just different arms belonging to the same monster. The monster is called "special interests." Both parties are bought and paid for.
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/17/2008 1:26:27 PM
It's depressing to see so many people whose vote or nonvote will be wasted and you'll all be so much worse off if the Bush clone McCain who isn't smart enough to be a Senator to start out with becomes president.
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/17/2008 3:08:39 PM
The Truth about Larree
His charade about 3rd parties is just a facade to hide his apathy. He doesn't have the balls to dare to try to make a difference.
|
|
Nerol
|
7/17/2008 3:20:23 PM
Holo, like it or not, the democrats and republicans are in bed with special interests and do not represent us. We see examples of this every day. Our political system is broken as long as these two corrupt parties dominate the political landscape.
You really think anything in your life is going to change come November?
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/17/2008 3:38:09 PM
Totally, Nerol. The difference is clear, between Bush's and McCain's brute lack of intelligence and Obama who is the smartest individual we've had running for office since RFK. You have let yourself be pulled from your previous viewpoint by not judging the man but watching the politics and letting little skirmishes pull you away from the big picture. Don't you understand that the US consists nearly one-third of people who will hesitate to vote for a man of color? It will be a miracle if he gets elected, the climate is much more against him than the media has represented. McCain says idiotic things every day of the week but ALL the focus is on Barack while McCain gets a total free ride. Of course Barack has to optimize the amount of votes he gets from independents as best he can, because if he doesn't get elected, he can't change anything. Sure as liberal thinkers we would've liked him to come down hard on the FISA bill, but his vote wouldn't have changed anything. If you listen closely to his points on that, you know that he's going to be active in turning back assaults on the constitution. He felt it was better to have some watchdog court in place than none at all, til a new president is inaugurated.
The publicized Obama flipflops are mainly scrutiny-manufactured. He never said he was going to absolutely take public financing. He never moved an inch on Iraq but the media has many believing he did.
Seriously I'm even tired of arguing this. I feel that anybody who can't see an overwhelming difference in respect for the constitution, in intelligence about foreign policy and the economy between these 2 candidates isn't even worthy of me arguing with. It's such a no-brainer and I refuse to discuss it with people with no brains at this point. If you want to tell me that Obama has disappointed you in some way, that's fine, but one candidate is the most intelligent I've ever seen in my lifetime and the other has displayed he's a fullfledged dullard who guarantees more of the status quo.
Bailing out from the process for whatever rationale is inexusable, this time.
|
|
Larz Boah
|
7/17/2008 4:16:35 PM
Here is the way it is....either laugh or have a friggin cow...heh heh heh
http://sendables.jibjab.com/
|
|
The Man With No Band
|
7/17/2008 4:28:16 PM
Bwahahahahhahaaahhahahhhahhahaahah !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
|
|
Nerol
|
7/17/2008 5:31:58 PM
Sure as liberal thinkers we would've liked him to come down hard on the FISA bill, but his vote wouldn't have changed anything.
You just made my point for me.
|
|
Nerol
|
7/17/2008 5:37:20 PM
Change we can believe in. Except nothing changes. FISA is an indicator. Here was an opportunity to break with the pack and show the thirst for change. He blew it in a major way. It's one thing to talk about change and quite another to act it. He had a chance to act and he didn't.
|
|
SqurlyMurly
|
7/17/2008 5:52:56 PM
When Holo has been around as long as the rest of us, (he told me he was young and this was his first time), he'll figure it out. Politicians promise you everything and give you nothing, maybe a pacifier or two, but in the meantime you still work your ass off to support yourself and family and that's after you support the politicians who sit in their "ivory towers" sucking the life from you.
It really doesn't matter; smart or dumb; attractive or ugly; right or left; up or down. Its been said above, the politicians aren't after the office as much as the benefits they reap afterwards.
Face it, Holo. Its really just a matter of who you prefer to shove it up your ass. : (
|
|
Nerol
|
7/17/2008 5:53:36 PM
We have had a democratic-led Congress, which Obama is a part of, since 2006. In that time, this do-nothing Congress has given W pretty much everything he wanted. They had their chance to right a multitude of wrongs by impeaching, holding hearings, pressing the issues, and they didn't do it. Instead they renewed Patriot with the lame eexcuse that "it was time for winter holiday so we voted for it rather than cut into our vacation time, but we'll fix it when we come back. Uh huh. Then they renewed war funding without a timetable because "we didn't have the votes to override a veto." So what??? What kind of excuse is that? Send the president the same bill over and over until he is forced to either accept the bill or run out of money. Guantanamo is still open for business, Karl Rove ignores a congressional subpoena and gets away with it......bleah, I'm sick of it.
When all these do-nothing democrats finally had a chance to do something, they caved on practically everything. with the "well, that's politics" excuse.
If Obama was serious about affecting change rather than giving great speeches about it, he would be holding many feet to the fire right now. But he can't. Why? Because he needs to win an election.
Holo, I share your passion about the direction of this country and how it is governed, but everything to date has shown me that the democrats are not going to do a damned thing about it.
|
|
Nerol
|
7/17/2008 6:00:27 PM
This isn't a personal thing against Holo at all. There was a time when I too thought some goober in Washington was going to make a difference in my life. You get over it eventually.
For a brief moment, I thought Obama might be different and I too had my hopes up. But his FISA vote really, really left me slack jawed. "It was either that or lose these effective tools." That's great, Barack....what'll it be next time? What civil liberties next time will get in the way of intelligence "tools?" Oh, it'll be different then? Why is it not different now? You won't do it again? How can we know for sure?
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/17/2008 7:38:19 PM
You are apathetic, and a fraud. Your vote means less than your blogs and that's saying something.
Nerol, you're a total reactionary copout if the FISA bill made you deem yourself impotent in this election.
Larree, speaking of rape did you see the report on this joke McCain once told.
"Did you hear the one about the woman who is attacked on the street by a gorilla, beaten senseless, raped repeatedly and left to die? When she finally regains consciousness and tries to speak, her doctor leans over to hear her sigh contently and to feebly ask, `Where is that marvelous ape?'"
Today his campaign said it shows his authenticity.
|
|
Conversation Suicide
|
7/18/2008 2:54:41 AM
---- Updated 7/18/2008 2:55:43 AM
It's time for the RAYMOND PORTER Point/Counterpoint Interview with HOLO & LARREE yeah! I'll be checkin' out that one for SURE!
Think: " JANE, you ignorant SLUT! " wouldn't it be a nifty mudslingin' entrevista? -phlegm
|
|
Nerol
|
7/18/2008 4:17:22 AM
"Nerol, you're a total reactionary copout if the FISA bill made you deem yourself impotent in this election."
Holo, read my posts again. I never said my vote didn't matter. In fact, I told you I am voting for a third party candidate because indeed the vote matters. If you'll read through my posts, you will see that what I'm saying is that the process doesn't matter. Nothing will change, just like nothing HAS changed.
Sucks, but that's just how it is.
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/18/2008 6:37:16 AM
If you're voting for a 3rd party candidate, you might as well vote for Frank Sinatra.
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/18/2008 7:53:40 AM
Your repartee is as weak as your vote. I see I've reduced you to babbling. :>)
|
|
Larz Boah
|
7/18/2008 9:33:52 AM
Barack Obama, the presumptive Democratic nominee for President of the United States of America, is for banning all guns for use by private citizens of the country. He is considered by those who have dealt with him to be a bit more than just a little self-righteous.
At a recent rural elementary school assembly in East Texas, he asked the audience for total quiet. Then, in the silence, he started to slowly clap his hands once every few seconds, holding the audience in total silence.
Then he said into the microphone, "Children, every time I clap my hands together, a child in America dies from gun violence."
Then little Richard Earl, with a proud East Texas drawl, pierced the quiet and said, "Well, dumb-ass, stop clapping!"
|
|
SqurlyMurly
|
7/18/2008 9:58:04 AM
BWA HAHAHAHAHA
|
|
Hop On Pop
|
7/18/2008 10:35:00 AM
---- Updated 7/18/2008 10:38:51 AM
BULLWORTH, baby!!!!!!
*************
Angry black woman: Are you sayin' the Democratic Party don't care about the African-American community?
Bullworth: Isn't that OBVIOUS? You got half your kids are out of work and the other half are in jail. Do you see ANY Democrat doing anything about it? Certainly not me! So what're you gonna do, vote Republican? Come on! Come on, you're not gonna vote Republican! Let's call a spade a spade!
[Loud, angry booing]
Bullworth: I mean - come on! You can have a Billion Man March! If you don't put down that malt liquor and chicken wings, and get behind someone other than a running back who stabs his wife, you're NEVER gonna get rid of somebody like me!
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/18/2008 11:31:41 AM
Sounds like racist generalizing, there.
Also that previous joke misrepresented his position on handguns.
There really are a lot of Americans who would never vote for a black man, even if they know McCain is a fool.
|
|
Hop On Pop
|
7/18/2008 11:36:10 AM
It is racist generalizing; but with a point (and without genuine malice). You have obviously never seen Bullworth, Holo. You should. I suspect that you will like it quite a bit.
And, I will now remind you here, that I am also a genuine Obama supporter.
Now, please go out and rent Bullworth... it touches on everything that is wrong with the US political machine. At least on the surface, and subcutaneously.
|
|
|
7/18/2008 11:48:03 AM
Holo says "There really are a lot of Americans who would never vote for a black man"
Are you black Holo? I don't know anyone white who would keep saying shit like that. I initially thought you were "The Bush Recession" from mp3.com, who had the same M.O.
If you are black, isn't your avatar FALSE ADVERTISING. LOL. Don't be ashamed of who you are. Be proud bro. No need for the deception.
That's a bunch of times I've seen you type that bullshit. Insinuating I have to vote for him because he is black, and I'm a racist if I don't. That's ridiculous.
Maybe people don't agree with his politics, his views (ie: the republicans) who would vote republican even if Jesus Christ was running on the dem ticket.
You have this attitude of "vote for obama, or you are a racist", you see things so black and white - it's just so obvious to you, that Obama is the man. Anyone who DARES...DARES to not vote for him, is the enemy in your eyes, a racist and any other nasty buzz word you can attack/bully people with to try and manipulate them...white guilt them (if you will) into voting for obama.
People are different all around the world, with a mulitude of different views on how things should be run. Each vote/opinion is just as important as yours. Imagine that.
Appreciate and respect that, instead of trying to bully and white guilt/manipulate people into voting for your guy.
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/18/2008 12:05:06 PM
---- Updated 7/18/2008 12:39:26 PM
I want Obama to win and I see how many ignorant people there are in America. 15% believe he is Muslim for instance.
|
|
never never band
|
7/18/2008 2:00:46 PM
well, I dont see Larree or Loren presenting any solution..
Libertarian?
Are you kidding me?
You want to completely dismantle government and completely deregulate the market?
I think we have seen what deregulating the Lending Industry during Danny Hastert and DeLays congress has done..
and no oversight or regulation in oil speculation..
and the Privatizing of the Military which has given us more Private security troops in Iraq than Military...at the taxpayers expense and with no sworn duty to uphold the constitution or respect international law!!!
The open and unregulated market is a pipe dream because there will always be Malicious people who amass incredible wealth and influence and use it to enslave the working class. This Libertarian line is stupid, you cant just yell "Do Overs" and think that everything will fall into place. You cant run a civil society without taxation and you cant dismantle and privatize every great civic engineering project in American history and still call yourself an American. (From the Eerie canal to public education, the roadways and everything in between, you want to Privatize all of that with no government oversight?
Are you fucking kidding me?
American Government has many problems for sure, but it's created the greatest scale of personal wealth in human history, it's the deliberate dismantling of Government that Reagan and others started that's diminished our potential. This country is supposed to be enforcing a Corporate Charter, not giving private industry free reign to do what they will while muttering Incantations about how the Market will Magically "correct itself"
Libertarians are Republicans in Drag, pot smoking neo conservatives who have some bizarre delusion of "the self made man" and "rugged individualism" that is storybook nonsense.
America is based on Government, for all it's faults it's still possibly the noblest sentiment in all of human history and Libertarians would tear it down just so they don't have to cheat on their taxes and hide their pot..
It's a sham, it sounds good but even the most tentative experiments in this direction have been spectacular failures.
Government will work if the People are Vigilant, involved and honest...
that's our only hope
S.
|
|
The Man With No Band
|
7/18/2008 2:26:27 PM
---- Updated 7/18/2008 2:27:27 PM
"Government was a good idea ... until it was taken over by the politicians and their greedy ways ... the system is broken and needs a major overhaul ..." Said the pot smoking hippie while he wondered what the hell smoking pot has to do with politics ?
Then he thought to himself .... "If only every politician was required to put one drop of LSD 25 in his eye, they might finally see how it truly is"
|
|
LyinDan
|
7/18/2008 2:30:14 PM
---- Updated 7/18/2008 2:31:41 PM
What nevernever said.
And also, just to prop Holo a bit, there IS a lot of racism still in this country. Blatant as well as hidden. I see examples at least once or twice a week here (here as in where I am, Arkansas, not citing this board, just to be clear). And a good deal of opposition to Obama is based on it. That's not to say if you don't wanna vote for him, you're racist. That's a bit oversensitive.
|
|
never never band
|
7/18/2008 2:34:43 PM
HA HA!
when I say "Pot smoking republicans" i'm trying to be Ironic...
The libertarian just wants freedom from what S/he perceives as Government Oppression.
And S/He imagines that an unregulated private sector will correct itself based on the magic of consumer organization and the consumers power to direct industry..
it's so silly.
That never works and is in fact the very reason that mankind created Government in the first place.
|
|
Nerol
|
7/18/2008 2:36:52 PM
"If you're voting for a 3rd party candidate, you might as well vote for Frank Sinatra."
And if you vote republican or democrat, you are voting for more of the same old same old that put us where we are today. Face it, the mess we are in is a bipartisan creation.
No thanks, I'll do it my way. :p
|
|
The Man With No Band
|
7/18/2008 2:48:22 PM
---- Updated 7/18/2008 2:56:00 PM
Never Never ... I actually agree with most of your last statement on the Libertarian platform ...
but ... this one referring to what the government has given ...
"American Government has many problems for sure, but it's created the greatest scale of personal wealth in human history"
Although a true statement, it is a sad one, the idea of "personal wealth" is exactly why the government is broken .... and why greed rules the day ....
"personal wealth" gives one a sense of entitlement and a great blind fold to see what actual wealth really is .... and it has nothing to do with "personal" ...
United we stand .... divided we fall
..the problem with this one ... "you want to Privatize all of that with no government oversight?
Are you fucking kidding me?" ... is the overseers are crooks ! ... and they sleep in the same bed as those they are supposedly watching over .... who is watching over them ?
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
7/18/2008 2:48:28 PM
---- Updated 7/18/2008 2:55:06 PM
"American Government has many problems for sure, but it's created the greatest scale of personal wealth in human history"
Really now, the Government has created the wealth? Hmmmm all this time I thought it was Hard work, creativity, innovation....
Sorry, but with all due respect, you are slightly misguided. There is an obvious need for government oversight to look out for the interests of citizens in both monetary and health matters, but to say government creates wealth? Time for an economics 101 lesson.
Government is not efficient, period. ..... and it cannot take the place of personal responsibility. The government needs to regulate yes, but the free market must prevail, otherwise you will live in a socialist state...or worse, a communist state.
America thrives because hard work is generally rewarded by the laws of supply and demand.
"personal wealth" gives one a sense of entitlement and a great blind fold to see what actual wealth really is .... and it has nothing to do with "personal" ."
Sorry Sam I don't understand this. So if someone works hard and provides for their family they somehow get a sense of entitlement? How is that?? ..
|
|
never never band
|
7/18/2008 2:55:43 PM
It's Government providing securities for the working class that has allowed them to create wealth and keep a hold of a bit of it.
don't be deliberately disingenuous, it's clear from the rest of my post what I mean.
hmmm...It occurs to me that the majority of the ideas that have empowered the working class are socialist Ideas!
How you use the terms Socialist and Communist in the same sentence escapes me...as if one leads to the other or as if they are nearly synonyms, maybe it's you who need a civics/government 101 lesson
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
7/18/2008 3:01:51 PM
---- Updated 7/18/2008 3:18:44 PM
Sorry, not being disingenous... just don't agree with your post.
I am well aware of the differences of Socialist and Communist states. Thank you.
Socialism is the stage between Capitalism and Communism. It builds upon the previous system (Capitalism) by nationalizing the "means of production" (i.e. corporations, resources, banks, etc.), but not by making everyone equal. In other words, people will be paid wages based on several factors (social need, difficulty, amount of schooling required, etc.),
The Socialists still maintain political control, while the communists lose this control...as well as a bit of personal responsibility and decision making. Hence my comment...
"Or worse....a Communist state"
|
|
The Man With No Band
|
7/18/2008 3:19:35 PM
Sorry Sam I don't understand this. So if someone works hard and provides for their family they somehow get a sense of entitlement? How is that?? ..
I'll try to clarify my statement
There is nothing wrong with working hard and providing for one's family ... the entitlement issue is subtly taught to all of us in a capitalist society ... "Work hard and you'll be rewarded" ... means do what we say is right and you are entitled to receive the benefits ... Then once you have the money in your pocket you are entitled to anything it will buy ... in the sense of the politician, that means votes and labor contracts and such ...
The money that has been spent for evil purposes all spawns from the belief of entitlement caused directly from the thought of "personal wealth" ...
If everyone thought of the planet as their "personal" home, and everyone in it as their brother and sister, they would see there is nothing good about "personal wealth"
All our roads and bridges and other deteriorating things in this country IMO are a result of "personal wealth" thinking and not the kind of wealth that means anything ... along with the destroying of our planet and our greedy ways to do so ... wealth is loving others, loving your planet, giving not receiving ... We were all already born with more wealth than any of us deserves, or even if somehow we do deserve it, we fail to see the very wealth beneath our feet ... and we think there must be more .. and when we find more ... we are sure there must be more ... it's just greed. pure and simple
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
7/18/2008 3:46:41 PM
Well Sam thats a belief system you have, so I cannot debate it. I only want to point out it generalizes and paints everyone with a very broad cynical brush.
I know many people who have worked hard to acheive personal wealth that enables them to provide for their families. These same people give to charity with money and their time. They are not pretentious with conspicuous consumption. The capitalist system allowed them to acheive through hard work and perserverance. They appreciate all they have achieved, and love the country they live in. They pay property and income taxes,and it is not because of them the infrastructure is failing.... Government is failing. With blown budgets, pork spending, and general inefficient waste of both time and money.
Just my opinion of course..
|
|
never never band
|
7/18/2008 3:47:27 PM
well yes Sam!!
that is the very sentiment behind Government by and for the people!
Our crumbling infrastructure and raped forests and rivers are indeed because of greed, but not the greed of working people, it's the legislative and executive branches abdicating their responsibility to use our taxation to provide for the health and welfare of Us, the people who generate the wealth!
Instead they use taxation to bail out overcapitaizing industries , enrich Energy and Pharm industries and to fuel the military industrial complex..
This is the opposite of what our government was designed to do!
It's not the ideas of Government that have failed it's the rat bastards who have hijacked government!!
It's the grand scheme to Privatize all the profit and Socialize all the risk so that infrastructure based industries like Halliburtan grow and grow and offshore their assets while the infrastructure itself continues to crumble and the victims are left to fend for themselves.
So Airlines can continually overcapitalize and then cry DO OVERS!!
so the lending Industry can make billions in bad loans and predatory lending and then when it crumbles cry DO OVERS!!!
and meanwhile we pay $5 for gas and just pray our neighborhoods don't get hit by a hurricane or worse while our fucking national guard are deployed in Iraq!!!!
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/18/2008 4:05:53 PM
Nerol,
that's another generalization. A lot of positive things might have happened in the last 4 years if the Democrats had enough representation in the Senate to overturn Bush's vetos.
Just remember, a vote for nobody that has a chance is a vote for McCain, will help the same assholes to stay in power.
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
7/18/2008 4:08:17 PM
Never,
I am with you!!! But there are just a few things to clarify..
There was predatory lending yes, but lets not forget the personal responsibility of the people signing the loan docs. Many bought houses they should have known they could never afford. They should not go by a broker (salesperson) saying,"In a few years you can refinance and get a better rate" Unless the promise is in writing it is worthless. The loan packet is huge and you have to sign in about twenty places. Believe me, it was all in black in white how the rates would reset. Problem is the market tanked, the houses lost equity, and there was no way to refinance. They owed more then the house was worth, and many simply quit paying their mortgage. The Brokers are to balame, but so are the purchasers.
As far as the bail outs? I hate them as much as you, but the fact is if they were left to collapse the economy would be greatly effected. Without supplying liquidity to banks,consumer confidence would fall further and people would lose ther jobs as businesses would not have a source of cash.
I have a great distate in my mouth about it as well, but I understand why it is done.
Things are totally fucked up right now.
Jeff
|
|
The Man With No Band
|
7/18/2008 4:25:14 PM
"As far as the bail outs? I hate them as much as you, but the fact is if they were left to collapse the economy would be greatly effected. Without supplying liquidity to banks,consumer confidence would fall further and people would lose their jobs as businesses would not have a source of cash."
Well this should be fixed so they have to bail themselves out with the profits they rake in in the good years ! .... as well as the insurance industry and the large farm operation and the etc. etc. etc. ....
I say fine we'll bail you out ONCE but YOU will no longer be in business, We will finance another bank, insurer or corporation ...
|
|
The Man With No Band
|
7/18/2008 4:32:32 PM
---- Updated 7/18/2008 4:56:42 PM
back on your other point ... this is my last attempt to explain my view ... :)
I understand what you are saying Jeff ... and I truly do not think everyone that has money is evil ... :) ... it's the concept of "personal wealth" Vs "real wealth" or "universal wealth" that I was referring to ....
Let me expound on this a little farther ...
There is nothing wrong with working hard and providing for one's family ... the entitlement issue is subtly taught to all of us in a capitalist society ... "Work hard and you'll be rewarded"
The problem is when you are talking rewards for hard work it doesn't pan out ... A guy is a bankers son and he got a sluff off job at his fathers bank and is a do nothing ... yet he is rewarded with perks and a handsome salary ... he pays a cleaning lady less than minimum wage to clean his house, his stuff and his shorts ! ... she bust her ass everyday for Mr. Jackass and is rewarded when she ask for a pay raise with a scoff and a threat to lose her job ...
Even a hard working guy in a construction job doesn't compare with a hard working Harvard graduate ... Even if the Harvard man doesn't look at it as entitlement .. society does ... and even if they don't they shrug their collective shoulders ...
I'd be willing to bet that all those descent people that you describe could do much more as a universal thing ... it all starts with the very "family" thinking you have described ... You already have the mindset that your family is entitled to receive what you can give them, more than any others out there ... and I say they are all every bit as deserving as my family and are entitled to the same treatment ... ...
I know, most think that is an odd statement, but if one had not been brought up with those family taught beliefs, and born into a communical society (no I was not) ... one could grasp the thought that they are truly being selfish by putting their own family first ... It's exactly the same family theory, only ALL children are your family .. so they are ALL entitled to have the same love, the same meal and the same roof over their head ...
Jeff you often talk about how much you love your son and how much he means to you ... and obviously you get so much pleasure from thinking about him ...and that's great.... now just imagine how much pleasure you would be rewarded with if you felt the same way about every child on earth ...
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
7/18/2008 4:59:07 PM
---- Updated 7/18/2008 5:05:41 PM
Sam ,
We live in a capitalist system...it is far from perfect, and I agree there are some injustices perpetrated by the "Good ol boy" network and with those born with a silver spoon in their mouths.
However, it is a system....every society needs one because resources are finite. The poor in the United states live better then most in the world..
As for the person cleaning toilets....is this person educated? do they have a marketable skill that pays a better wage???? The beauty of our system is everyone has the opportunity to achieve and better themselves. Sure, some have barriers greater then others, but with hard work they can have a better life.
That is why so many immigrate to this country, legally and illegally.
Injustices will occur.....but overall I believe with the right attitude and perserverance any and all can achieve. However, many will never achieve because they lack ambition or a work ethic. I don't believe these people should receive the same rewards. Self interest is a powerful motivator, take it away and all fall to the lowest common denominator. I understand people may face racism, poverty,hoplessness, etc... But they still have to have hope they can achieve. With hard work, many do just that.
I understand and respect your thoughts Sam, I just look at it differently. My Mom is a coal Miners Daughter from West Virginia with nine brothers and sisters. She is from a very poor family. She instilled in me the importance of education and Hardwork. Along with the principles my Father taught me I have done ok for myself and my family. I never felt entitled to anything, all I needed to hear were stories from my Moms upbringing and I realized you need to make your own opportunity. I am not rich by any means, but I do feel wealthy.
We all have different life experiences that shape our opinions and goals. Each one is personal and unique.
I cannot take care of all Gods children Sam, but I can have empathy, give to charity, and try to be the best neighbor I can. Thats the best I can do.
|
|
Nerol
|
7/19/2008 7:26:18 AM
---- Updated 7/19/2008 7:28:34 AM
"Nerol,
that's another generalization. A lot of positive things might have happened in the last 4 years if the Democrats had enough representation in the Senate to overturn Bush's vetos."
Not so, and I'll give you an example. When the war funding authorization came up, the newly democratic-led Congress said they would not authorize war funding without a timetable for troop withdrawal. They sent that bill to Bush, which he vetoed (as he promised he would). They then gave him what he wanted and said "Well, we don't have the votes to override the veto." What the hell kind of an explanation is that? What they should have done is keep sending him the same bill over and over and let him keep vetoing it until eventually, he would have been forced to sign it or run out of money for the war. The Democratic party had the power to do that, being the majority party, but instead they gave a lame duck president with a 28% approval rating what he wanted. And in so doing, they turned their backs on a passionate electorate who sent them there to change things!
Another example is the Patriot Act renewal. Again, the Dem congress did not want it...but they voted to renew it anyway because they did not want to hand around Washington over their holiday break. Nancy Pelosi said don't worry, we'll fix it when we come back. Hello??
And now the FISA bs. Sorry Holo, you are willing to gloss over the failures of this congress and give them a pass while I am not. Open your eyes, man. Dems and Reps are all in this together and a vote for either one is a vote for more of the same, whether it's McCain or Messia...I mean Obama.
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/19/2008 6:44:29 PM
---- Updated 7/19/2008 9:14:34 PM
I forgot to address Jeff's comment.
Olbermann's show went right after Obama for the FISA thing. Anybody who thinks MSNBC is like Fox either doesn't watch either or is clueless. Hannity is a totally shameless right wing pawn. His radio show talks about Operation Bring Down Obama. O'Reilly showed the clips of Jeremiah Wright for a month straight.
Of course Olbermann and the utterly brilliant Rachel Maddow often diss McCain.
It's the intelligent position..
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
7/19/2008 9:04:15 PM
---- Updated 7/19/2008 9:05:36 PM
Fox and MSNBC , same shtick just opposite sides of the political spectrum.
I watched Olberman for years as a Sportscaster in L.A. He found a niche and plays to a set demographic...he is a smart showman. No different then Rush and Oreilly, but of course they are playing to different audiences. Its a show with a slant....and people like you Holo are making him a very rich man. Its showmanship plain and simple. He and Oreilly go at it often, and I would not be surprised if they laugh about it together after the red light goes off.
If you believe a certain way there is an entertainment channel that will feed your views...whether your a right wing wacko or a left wing lunatic.
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/19/2008 9:24:59 PM
Your view is one of a simpleton. To think that Olbermann, as far as he's gone out on a limb in his special comments, doesn't believe in what he's doing makes you jaded to to point of idiocy. It's not a money grab, genius. If he saw O'Reilly on the street he'd probably call him a name.
To imply because there are 2 sides of an issue means that neither of them are more accurate is just a way to look at things that keeps you from having to decide what you believe. It's cowards who try to take the middle ground on everything that keep progress from happening in this world. To equate in any way the intelligence of Olbermann and Maddow and co. with Hannity and Limbaugh and co is such a copout. I'm really sick of seeing so many artists who are too chickenshit to decide what they believe. I'd respect somebody more who was totally pro-McCain than all this wishy washy 3rd party shit and all the news shows are slanted. I watch all the news networks but it doesn't take a scholar to see what the truth is these days.
|
|
The Man With No Band
|
7/19/2008 9:30:39 PM
I watch all the news networks but it doesn't take a scholar to see what the truth is these days.
The trick is to not watch any of the news ... that is if you want to have a good day ... and if you want the real truth ... :)
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
7/19/2008 11:55:39 PM
---- Updated 7/20/2008 12:03:19 AM
.Holo. do you always have to to insult? your very tired friend, others may have patience for you, but I am sick of your disrespectful comments to those that have an opinion that does not fit your rigid mold
You speak in absolutes....like you have all the answers.. you are a joke and have no credibility, I have put up with your degrading lack of respect and common courtesy for too long.
Your a miserable hack.... I am done with you. .
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/20/2008 1:31:23 AM
Listen you hypocrite, you came on and called me Holbermann. I don't care if you ever post on one of my blogs again because you're condescending, and yes you are simple. You've written off every piece of information one might obtain by TV news programs, yet you reeled off a litany of talking points that came from similar source material like it was your own. You're also a hypocrite because YOU speak in absolutes as much as anybody here. You refer to some of the best individuals I've ever seen on television as being all for show and phony. Obviously you are incapable of recognizing passion. You're afraid of it and that's why you put down any person who has any. Anybody who has strong opinions is a crazy conservative or a wacky liberal to you, because you are too gutless to get off the fence; and your last post shows that you have absolutely no self-awareness because you were speaking precisely about yourself.
Now if you don't realize your own posts are insulting, you need to wake up, Jeffy. We insult each other, you are no better than me in that regard. The difference is I can take the heat and you can't, crybaby.
|
|
Jeff Allen Myers
|
7/20/2008 3:59:08 AM
---- Updated 7/20/2008 4:30:47 AM
Holberman ... I was playing on your name , trying to inject a little levity. You site him as your source over and Over... I try to remain respectful in my posts, you make it very difficult. You have a pattern, and it's not with me alone.
"You've written off every piece of information one might obtain by TV news programs, yet you reeled off a litany of talking points that came from similar source material like it was your own."
Bullshit I don't get talking points from t.v shows like you seem to do., ...Its funny how I agreed with you not long long ago, of course you did not respond to me. You only do that when someone disagrees with you. I don't write off information, I respond to it if I disagree..its called a dialog. I also never said Olberman and O'Reilly are "all "show and phony, I simply pointed out there is a large element of showmanship. They can believe what they are saying, while still overinflate the issues for ratings. They "stir the pot" if you will by leaving out relevant facts at times. Its always negativity towards the "Other side" even if O,Reilly states its a "No spin zone". He is being disingenuous. Again, I have watched Olberman for years as a sportscaster. He found a formula to get ratings and he is building on his experience in front of the camera. I see the same man, only now he is talking about Bush instead of ripping the Manager of the Dodgers for not bunting in the ninth.
You can make your points while leaving out the personal insults on intelligence.You do it over and over...you are such a condescending smartass. I put up with your bullshit for nearly a year or (more.) You would think the exchanges would get a little more lighthearted, but I guess you are incapable of it. If an opinion is stated or a point is made that differs from you, you attack the person. You are very predictable, You are either immature, have and overinflated ego, or you are simply a jerk. Its getting very stale...
You can have the last word after this post, I promise never to respond to you again. It is no longer interesting or entertaining. I apologize if I have brought this site down with my exchanges.
Jeffy? Ok I will drop to your level...Enjoy the Election Assholo... (sorry I could not resist using that line) See ya at the Polls....
|
|
Nerol
|
7/20/2008 6:13:57 AM
" I watch all the news networks but it doesn't take a scholar to see what the truth is these days."
I agree. And the truth is that Messia..I mean, Obama caved on FISA for political reasons. Same as the other whole sorry lot of politicians who cave for political reasons.
Holo, google "Obama FISA" and you will see that you are about the only supporter of his on the planet who is not enraged about this. For me it was a real eye-opener to see him flip on such a bedrock principle. I'm glad I got to see him in his new clothes before November because I was about to make the same deluded mistake you are.
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/20/2008 8:58:08 AM
It is so irrelevant that Olbermann knows sports too. So does George Will and many others. Does an interest in sports mean they can't understand politics? Of course not. Jeff your opinions are disrespectful, that's why I respond the way I do. You don't really touch my discussion topics, you always go after the source but that goes nowhere because MSNBC does a pretty good job of reporting on the issues. You want nothing to do with them because you'd rather sit on the fence and excuse yourself from choosing.
Larree and Nerol, you 2 like to justify your non-vote more than anyone I've ever seen. You will both waste yours and then if McCain wins and we get in other wars and America remains the disgrace it's now viewed at in the international community, not to mention the economy going further into the muck, it's partially your fault.
|
|
Nerol
|
7/20/2008 9:26:48 AM
Who said anything about not voting? The only difference is that I'm looking at this without blinders on and seeing Obama for precisely what he is: the latest tool of a broken political machine.
|
|
The Man With No Band
|
7/20/2008 9:28:11 AM
I wasn't going to post on any of your threads again Holo ... but I just had to do it one more time ...
I'm seriously questioning if you are not working under cover for the McCain campaign ....
Although I think Obama is a better choice than McCain ... it's people like you, that treat people with NO respect that turn people off and drive them to the other side ...
No one wants to be affiliated with someone that is so closed minded that they think they have become God ....
If you really want people to vote for Obama, then state the reasons why you think so... your vicious attacks on McCain and anyone else who dares question your train of thought is not only childish but very obnoxious as well ...
If you want to have participation in a political blog then at least have some respect for those who are willing to participate ...
In other words ... it would do everybody good if they would just LIGHTEN UP a bit !
... and that is directed at you more than anyone else ... I know you are the defensive sort and will have some snide comeback at me but I will not give you one back as I am a big boy ... You should really consider stepping back and reading your words as if they were written by someone else ...
I commend you for your passion and your true belief that your cause is just ...
But everyone has their own right to their opinion and dragging them down is not going to help your cause .... It's only going to hurt it...
So if you really believe Obama is the man, do him a favor and stop driving people away !
Peace
Sam
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/20/2008 9:47:46 AM
I'm not the one calling people a turd. You're right though that nothing I say is going to make these particular people actually vote for anyone other than some candidate that has no chance. It's pathetic though that any of you dismiss all the media. If you ask me it's some of you who are declaring yourself god and above actually deciding upon the only 2 real choices that remain. I consider all the various sides of the coin and have remarked several times about things I'm disappointed in Obama about. I also put out the issues and respond to the posters when they actually discuss the issues but here, the main ones who want to get into the fray are those who want to argue why none of it matters. Of course I understand why McCain backers wouldn't want to state that because they know they can't defend it, but why are so many others so scared to say who they are supporting? Because they know they will have to answer to the people who argue that no choice is good? That's a sad state of affairs. It's important to point out, too. I suspect there are people reading who are energized by the fact that I actually feel strongly enough to support someone and not take the lame way out like many here do. Yes some of you would prefer that absolutely nobody posts about who they are voting for here, probably only 5% of the Americans at IAC will even vote from what I can tell. They are the same sheep that caused George Dubya to have all his power.
Should I apologize for being one of the only people here who dares to believe in a candidate? I don't think so, and I don't care if those who don't like it ignore my blogs either.
|
|
Nerol
|
7/20/2008 10:28:21 AM
Holo, many people don't know who they're voting for yet. That doesn't mean they don't know who they're NOT voting for.
I'm going for Nader. Check it out if you like.
|
|
Nerol
|
7/20/2008 10:29:40 AM
"Break the law as a citizen, go to jail. Break the law as a corporation, go to Washington and get immunity."
That's the dems and reps for ya.
|
|
Nerol
|
7/20/2008 10:29:43 AM
"Break the law as a citizen, go to jail. Break the law as a corporation, go to Washington and get immunity."
That's the dems and reps for ya.
|
|
Nerol
|
7/20/2008 10:37:34 AM
---- Updated 7/20/2008 10:38:22 AM
HERE is a page that shows the positions of the three candidates. It will take third party leadership to break the country out of the business as usual status.
|
|
LyinDan
|
7/20/2008 10:46:49 AM
You'll need a charismatic, popular third party candidate to stand a chance in getting elected. When that time comes, I may vote for him.
Nader ain't it.
|
|
Nerol
|
7/20/2008 10:49:57 AM
Whoa Doug, you surprise me. Are we voting for charisma or principles?
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/20/2008 10:56:59 AM
Are you voting to feel important or to actually make a difference in the outcome?
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/20/2008 11:09:45 AM
Larree I was just reading about you raving about Alvin Lee. Their most famous song could be your political anthem, it all makes sense.
I'd love to change the world
but I don't know what to do
so I'll leave it up to you
:>)
|
|
Kevin White
|
7/20/2008 11:11:26 AM
---- Updated 7/20/2008 11:21:03 AM
I like Obama because he's got nice haircut and he seems like a very nice person.
Some people say he's black, but I really don't think so. Someone told me, I don't remember who, that he was Hawaiian, which means that he's actually an Indian ... I mean Native American, that is ... we're not supposed to call Hawaiians "Indians" any more. It's just not right ... even if all of them still wear grass skirts.
I think that it's about time we put a Native American into the White House, after all ... they were here first, so it's good that we let them run their own country for a while. Maybe he can solve the massive debt problem by opening a national casino franchise? I hear Indi ... damn, Native Americans, are good at opening casinos.
I wonder, though, could we still call the White House the White House if Obama gets elected? Maybe we could call it the "Tee Pee" House?
Ha, I just said "pee" ...
Anyways, I think I'm going to vote for John McCafferty. He's really old, but Beaver Brown is a really good band.
Ha, I just said "beaver" ... which sort of means "Bush" ...
Oh NOW I get why it's voting for his twin!
|
|
LyinDan
|
7/20/2008 11:58:53 AM
---- Updated 7/20/2008 12:00:08 PM
"Whoa Doug, you surprise me. Are we voting for charisma or principles?"
We're voting (uh...at least I am, heh) for someone who stands a chance in hell of getting elected. :)
If Obama were Third Party would you be voting for him? He'd have made a great Third Party candidate.
|
|
Nerol
|
7/20/2008 2:05:19 PM
What would happen if everyone one day just voted for who they thought was the best candidate instead of who they thought had a chance of winning? Think about it.
As it is, the country keeps doing the same thing each election cycle and expecting a different outcome. Isn't that the definition of insanity?
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/20/2008 2:43:33 PM
No, insanity is chucking your vote up in the air where it doesn't count for anything.
|
|
Nerol
|
7/20/2008 2:53:57 PM
Actually, Holo, one definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome. Which is what happens in this country every election cycles.
But I have to ask you...why does a vote for someone other than your candidate not count for anything? Maybe we should just go to a one party system? 1 candidate? How about it?
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/20/2008 3:48:08 PM
A vote for McCain counts for something, it proves you're stupid. :>)
Still I'd respect you more then, because you actually made a vote that wasn't like throwing your ballot up into the air.
|
|
Nerol
|
7/20/2008 3:51:43 PM
I'm voting for a change in the status quo. You're voting for the same old same old. Don't come to me complaining. :)
|
|
LyinDan
|
7/20/2008 4:04:00 PM
I understand a protest vote perfectly, and I might protest, too, if I thought the stakes were lower. Unfortunately, if there's any chance that my protest vote would cause a continuation of the REAL same ole same ole (that would be the Repubes staying in office yet another 4-8 years, the end of the world as we know it), I choose to cast it for the better man with a realistic chance of getting the job. And yes, I do believe Obama is the better man for the job, and I do believe there'll be a pretty good shake-up when he's elected. All in all, I believe in throwing the bums out after pretty much every term. I think Obama deserves the chance to change my mind about that.
|
|
Holo Lukaloa
|
7/20/2008 4:42:51 PM
The choice is pretty clear this time. :>)
|
|
| |
�2015-16 IndieMusicPeople.com All Rights
Reserved
| |