4/30/2008 6:38:36 PM
Looking for suggestions

4/15/2008 5:42:25 PM
Anyone seen Rosanna Arquettes documentary ALL WE ARE SAYING?

3/24/2008 9:07:22 PM
my version- Jeremy Camp's "Walk By Faith"

3/17/2008 8:24:45 PM
Most Overrated Albums

3/15/2008 1:50:28 PM
New Song- Searchin For You

3/9/2008 9:54:13 PM
New recording of He Reached Down

3/3/2008 6:13:33 PM
Christian Rock

2/13/2008 4:23:53 PM
American Idol- legit talent search or souless bloodsucking vampires on parade?

1/27/2008 12:46:15 PM
Other sites like this

1/21/2008 2:33:03 PM
Tom Petty, Warren Zevon, Pink Floyd fans...

1/21/2008 1:23:36 PM
Warren Zevon comes back tells Tom Petty about Jesus...

1/8/2008 6:19:44 PM
Pleased To Meet You

3/3/2008 6:13:33 PM

Christian Rock
If this is the label one puts on one's music does it cause you to disregard it and not give it a chance? Or do you actually give it the time to listen to it?

3/3/2008 6:35:17 PM

Hello Jack .... for me personally I couldn't care less what genre a song is listed as ... but I'm sure to others it does ... I already had one of your songs on a station and it got there because I caught it as a new release coming in ... I don't pick genres to listen too ...
If people come around and say hello I'll usually go check them out ... or if they post a blog (that doesn't look like hit and run promo) ... or if they are involved in a discussion on someone else's blog ... sometimes by random shopping or sometimes by recommendation but .... never by genre ...

Sam

3/3/2008 7:12:48 PM

I list all of my songs under Christian/Spiritual categories, and what I have found is that many people will take the time to listen and give feedback if you simply reach out and join in. The art and heart of music provides a bridge between musical genres. That is not to say that some people will shy away from Christian music because of personal views. I will definitely check it out. :)

3/3/2008 7:51:14 PM

The term "Spiritual" is very usual and allows for more scope in the genre de_scription. Many 'Christian' songs are also spiritual or 'uplifting' or 'meditative' or 'inspirational' - terms that tell you more about the style of the song without alienating an audience who may have different demoninational callings.

3/3/2008 8:29:39 PM

Jo Ellen, never mind using an ambiguous term for your music. If you want to give Christ the credit by using his name go ahead girl. My kids listen to a lot of Christian music. And write it too.

http://iacmusic.com/artist.aspx?ID=77226

I stick to rhyming the Psalms and putting them to my own music, because as part of God's own message about himself they have to be better than anything I could write.

I think we're all free to express ourselves in whatever way conscience permits-- believers and non-believers alike.

3/4/2008 7:28:55 AM

....I'm going to be very honest in answering this. I most definitely do not bother to listen to a song if it's labelled "Christian", even if I may be missing something enjoyable musically.

Why? - Because I assume, rightly or wrongly, that it's what I call the GodSquad on a mission to convert others through their music. I detest missionaries. I feel the same about Protest music - Go and demonstrate in the streets.

I have nothing against the Christian musicians themselves as individuals - I have no difficulty respecting their religious beliefs for themselves but I don't feel the same and don't want to hear them banging on about it - Go and sing in a Church! Okay, some Black Gospel music is great - As long as you can't hear the words properly. I stopped listening to Al Green when he started preaching Christianity.

Christianity is one of the worst religions for being less tolerant of other religions - That aspect does not earn my respect.

Was Elvis Presley's music, and all that has followed, really "The Music Of The Devil!"?

I'm ready for you now - I've put on my flame-proof suit! :-)

3/4/2008 7:41:25 AM

I'm ready for you now - I've put on my flame-proof suit! :-)

LOL Red!!!

3/4/2008 7:45:53 AM

RR, I was formulating some words for a reply here but you have already posted pretty much my exact thoughts!

Like you, I have absolutely no problem with people having and sharing their personal beliefs but I tune out as soon as somebody tries to 'convert' me to anything.
I have been down the 'Born Again' path and have also been down many other paths. My current view on life, the universe and everything is formulated from my experiences to date and this will evolve just like everything else.
I am open to learning new things but at this point Christianity is too limiting for me and does not fit with my life experience so far.

If I had to pick a religion I would most identify with, it would (seriously) be Jedi. Although, I must admit, I'd be a bit of a rebel Jedi, kinda like Anakin but without the turn to the Sith!!

SuperPuss
SuperPuss video

3/4/2008 8:13:49 AM

By labeling yourself "Christian Rock" you will turn off some listeners. Most likely these listeners would not like the music anyway once they found out what the message was behind it. So this is the real question. Do you want to stand up for God and be bold in proclaiming his message? If so then why would you try to hide your intention? Did Jesus try to hide his teachings?

Be proud to procalim the good message of the Lord. Pray that God would turn the hearts of those that will not listen to him. Yes you will offend some people. Yes some people will not listen. As long as you proclaim the truth as it is told in Gods word then you have nothing to fear.

"Do not fear" is one of the most common phrases in the bible. You will never be ashamed in lifting up the name of the Lord.
Peace and God Bless.
TSC
Ken

3/4/2008 8:25:52 AM

Sorry Ken/TSC but your post is EXACTLY why I don't even bother to listen to music with such labels.

Not content with making music about Jesus, you are now preaching it here. Yes, Christian principles are excellent, but if you guys truly live by them you don't need to preach - Who the heck do you think you are?

3/4/2008 8:35:50 AM

"I have absolutely no problem with people having and sharing their personal beliefs but I tune out as soon as somebody tries to 'convert' me to anything."

Tatiana, can you explain to me the difference you feel when someone is sharing a personal belief as opposed to trying to convert you? I'm asking because I am a Christian, and I struggle with just that, I'm sometimes very reluctant to share a belief because I don't want someone to feel like I'm trying to cram something down their throat. What denotes the difference? How can a Christian make it clear they intend one thing, and not the other?

As for the original posting, I'll listen to anything, whatever it is lableled. I also have to say, here at IAC I have found most people to be very friendly towards Christian artists.

~Lace~

3/4/2008 8:43:17 AM

''Sorry Ken/TSC but your post is EXACTLY why I don't even bother to listen to music with such labels.

Not content with making music about Jesus, you are now preaching it here. Yes, Christian principles are excellent, but if you guys truly live by them you don't need to preach - Who the heck do you think you are?

RedRobin ... I think that is a bit unfair .... I didn't read Ken's lines as Preaching to anyone ... He was simply responding to Jacks question .... He expressed his belief ... I didn't see where he said anything about everyone should believe like him ...

His expression of his views are no different than yours or mine ... and he has the right to say them.. IMO

3/4/2008 8:56:31 AM

Wow, I think the situation I was just asking about just happened here... Red, what was it in Ken's reply that raised your hackles as opposed to Jo Ellen/Kozys'?

~Lace~

3/4/2008 8:59:03 AM

I feel the same about Protest music - Go and demonstrate in the streets.

I also find this a rather strange statement .... You have said many times that you are a Rolling Stones Fan .... Has there ever been a bigger protest band on the planet ?

Read the lyrics to most of their songs .... just because they claim Rock as their genre they don't disguise their protest ....

3/4/2008 9:08:20 AM

I'll give it my best shot Lace :-)

I think, for me anyway, it comes down to being open minded to the possibility that life is not absolute. What I mean by that is if two people are sitting down having a chat about their beliefs, they should be open to learning and growing from each other. I do not believe that any one person has the absolute answer.
When somebody says to me that they believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and Saviour, that is a very different thing than telling somebody that their way is the right way and everyone else needs to be saved in order to avoid eternity in Hell.

I have been a Born Again Christian and have even tried to convert people because I genuinely believed they would perish in hell if they were not converted. My parents and my grandmother were the turning point for me.
I was told be my 'Church' that until my Grandmother and parents became born again they were instruments of the Devil as were all others who were not born again. Then they convinced me that my record collection was all the Devils music and I actually destroyed almost all of it, including my prized mint condition limited edition pink vinyl album of Dark Side of the Moon!!
Anyway, my parents and my Grandmother were (my parents still are) MUCH better people than some of the Christians I knew. Please, that is NOT an attack at Christians. I know some wonderful Christians! My Grandmother would do anything for anyone and regularly cooked meals for strangers and helped people she did not know. She was so much like Jesus in that regard and to be told that she was a tool of the Devil was just ludicrous to me. Those were some of the things that got me out of the Born Again lifestyle.

Phew, that was more in depth than I planned but basically I will listen and share with anyone who is open minded and willing to learn something that may even go against what they currently believe. When somebody shares something with me that makes me re-evaluate my beliefs and experiences, I welcome the opportunity to grow and evolve.
Just such a thing happened when I had the opportunity to spend a week on sacred Aboriginal land, sharing the wisdom of the tribal elders and tribal elders from other countries (Native American and Maori). I have opened up to the wisdom of my own parents far more since that experience too.
Personally, to limit myself to the absolutes I was taught by the Born Again people I lived with would be very counter to my current life experience. I have taken with me many facets of Christianity and blended it with facets from other cultures and beliefs to formulate something that, for the most part, strengthens my current views on life.

I am fascinated by many things from Didgeridoos to quantum physics and love sharing experiences with others in an open and respectful way.


OK, to sum up and to hopefully help you with your question, share what you believe but accept what others believe because they are probably just as convinced of their beliefs as you are. Rather than saying 'this is how it is' simpy suggest that 'this is what I believe' and be prepared to really listen to the other person and even be prepared for something they say to possibly change some of your own beliefs.

SuperPuss
SuperPuss video

3/4/2008 9:18:06 AM

Here's one of my favourite quotes from 'Men in Black' that I feel could be appropriate here.....

"........ Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat, and fifteen minutes ago, you knew that humans were alone on this planet. Imagine what you'll know tomorrow."

SuperPuss
SuperPuss video

3/4/2008 9:24:49 AM

As a Christian, I am slightly more likely to listen to 'Christian Rock' from an artist I don't know because I don't want to hear something that...I either know nothing about, or I just...don't want to hear about. But I listen to most genres anyway because there's alot of talent and good music out there under every genre. All the music in this community is very spiffy. But then again, I am younger than most of the artists here and I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but either way, that's my personal take. :)

3/4/2008 9:29:25 AM

Hi Red,
I respect your views. There are many who do not believe in the same thing. I am not telling you what to believe. I am only saying how I see it. I think that I should stand up for what I believe in. That does not make your opinion any less valid or less important. If you don't like this kind of music because its message offends you or you feel like you are being preached at that is your right.

My question to the poster of this blog was to say:
1 Are you going to hide what you believe in to get more plays?
2 Are you going to try to disguise your songs as something they are not?
3 If so then why are you choosing they choosing Christian rock to begin with?

Lace and Sam, I appreciate that you stand up for me. Red Robin has just as much right to his opinion as I do.

Red, I am sorry if I offend you with my belief. This is how I see it and I do not expect you or ask you to share my views.
"Who do I think I am?"

Why do you ask who I think I am? God is the only one to explian his purpose. If he is willing to use me to forward the message then i will not be afraid or ashamed to bring it forth.
TSC
Ken

3/4/2008 9:31:30 AM

Hi Superpuss... we haven't really met, my name is anjuli. I just read your thoughtful addition to this thread and had to comment. It's beautiful what you just wrote and a true embrace of diversity. It just goes to show, it's not problems so much that are the problems but rather our attitudes towards them. And a good sense of humor always helps... anyway, thanks for taking the time to post that t'was a pleasure to read.

3/4/2008 9:42:10 AM

Hi all - sorry I haven't been around but that's life right :-) I found this an interesting question just 'cause I happen to have a song listed as Christian Rock. It was not purposefully written in this genre, nor did I intend to classify it as such. 'Cause I thought it would deter listeners.

It was written with the feeling of not knowing what to do next when you're on the edge. I didn't think it was a 'preachy' song, sometimes those style of songs can irritate me even as a strong believer. The producer but 'Jesus' in it more times than the original version so I went with the best category for it. And it has proved to be a good choice.

I do try to listen to most new songs when I have a chance and admittly there are certain categories I tend to avoid as well. emo & grunge rock (although I have to blog you a story about that one later :-) )

cheers all - happy listening, playing, humming etc..
Carolyn

3/4/2008 9:55:47 AM

Anjuli,

Thank you for replying about my post. I'm about to head to bed but I will stop by your page tomorrow and have a listen :-)


Carolyn,
I must agree with you about Emo and Grunge. As much as those genres have a significant following, I do not generally find much there that gels with my personality!

SuperPuss
SuperPuss video

3/4/2008 10:06:40 AM

Wow- how can I not respond to this? The music I create is for the purpose of using my talents in a manner that brings honor to God. I would be lying if I said it is not my sincere wish that others could understand the joy and freedom that is found in knowing God for who He truly is, but I am not here to push or force others to the same conclusions I have made. I have spent much time as a researcher, and it is my hope that others can approach any belief set or TRUTH with an understanding that it can be tested and studied. Some of my songs combine truths about physical and spiritual co-occurrences within my own life, and some songs simply present what I have studied within the Bible. I appreciate musicians and music for what is it... creativity and communication. I am not a narrow-minded, Bible thumping intolerant, but I am someone who understands what I believe in such a way as to be able to give an answer to anyone who asks regarding the hope that I have.

It is not my job to force others to listen, to change the way I label my music in order to make others more comfortable, or to convince others that I am right. It is simply not about me.
++++

3/4/2008 10:20:09 AM

Thanks for sticking up for Ken, Sam. You are truly not prejudiced.

3/4/2008 10:24:11 AM

Chiming in a little late here, but here's how I look at it. I am a Christian, and so are the other two members of Bat Lenny. We don't specifically write "Christian Music", though occasionally Christian themes do appear in our lyrics. And naturally our attitude reflects it.

We have a couple of songs that are in the Christian / Spiritual genre, but most aren't. One reason for that is I don't think most people who are looking for Christian music are going to like our music. Most of them are looking for worship music.

I think labeling "Christian Music" limits its exposure. If it's worship music, then it makes sense, because it's only going to appeal to other Christians. But people who are not Christian aren't going to listen to it. We're not trying to trick people into listening to us and implant a belief through some sort of "stealth evangelism". We're just being true to ourselves and putting our music out there for everyone to hear. Listen if you like, don't if you don't.

3/4/2008 10:30:05 AM

I'm with you on that Steg.

But I like several other opinions given here as well.

I do have a problem with: "Here's what I believe this year and next year it will be different, but you're wrong to believe the same thing all your life. Especially if you're a Christian."

If these guys had a genre. yeah, I'd probably avoid it.

3/4/2008 10:39:34 AM

Stegor wrote:
"I think labeling "Christian Music" limits its exposure. If it's worship music, then it makes sense, because it's only going to appeal to other Christians. But people who are not Christian aren't going to listen to it. We're not trying to trick people into listening to us and implant a belief through some sort of "stealth evangelism". We're just being true to ourselves and putting our music out there for everyone to hear. Listen if you like, don't if you don't."

....That is a view I can wholeheartedly respect.

I don't mean to give anyone offence by my non-Christian views but I can't help the fact that I really detest a missionary approach or being preached to. Clearly no-one in particular was trying to do that here as such, but a strong Christian belief is so absolute that it simply is not open to alternatives and I react to such closed ideas. I have nothing against Ken, for example, personally - I just don't agree with such an unwavering view.

I find that I can easily differentiate between a person's religious beliefs and their character - There are plenty of good people here who happen to be devout Christians.

Live and Let Live :-) [I have no idea whether Jesus or John Lennon said that - It doesn't matter who]

3/4/2008 10:44:37 AM

Right on Red, there are good Christians too.

most of them probably detest the same thing as you do.

In fact the only people that Christ openly condemned were the over-religious.

May I suggest that you check out Bat Lenny's "Woe to the Pharisees."?

TT

3/4/2008 10:45:50 AM

.....SuperPuss's "best shot" post sums it perfectly for me and it's exactly how I am except I'm much blunter in expressing it! I try to be respectful but the more closed someone's mind is the more difficult I find it.

We would all do well to keep our minds open and tolerant.

3/4/2008 10:49:48 AM

How's the suit holding up Red???

3/4/2008 10:52:15 AM

....Some of my Native American friends are both Christian and 'Native' (no doctrine exists) in their beliefs. It took me a while and some discussion to understand how this could be but I finally understood that there is more than one way to 'God'/Creator and I actually became more tolerant as a result.

The Lakota word for "God" translates to "The Great Mystery".

3/4/2008 10:56:06 AM

"How's the suit holding up Red???"

....LOL!! Excellent line ^ ^ !!

I'm not really needing it - The Christians in here are good guys and gals! :-)

3/4/2008 11:08:51 AM

RR:
I think there is a misconception that Christians are inevitably offended by non-Christian views. I think often the reverse can be true. But, either way it is not beneficial to judge anyone superficially. (We should not be trying to make or take offense)

Instead, what may be helpful is to understand is that at the very heart of the Christian belief set is the concept of the free will. I may not agree with you and you may not agree with me but that is our right...to disagree...and to hopefully live peaceably. ("Live and let live"...not something Jesus said, but a truth about spiritual freedom)

I can disagree with someone, and still appreciate their value and insight. I think there is much to learn by taking a risk and hearing one another out. Narrowmindedness is a disease of humanity, not of Christianity.

And guess what...I know many people (Christian and non-Christian) who do not like to be "preached" at, but hopefully as musicians we can listen and appreciate
points of view without malice. I think sometimes we feel "preached at" because we have already taken offense.

As you might have guessed this is important to me, because I try consistently to connect with others despite their spiritual points of view. It is important to me to understand where others are coming from, their experiences, and their insights.
I appreciate the musical ability, talent, and experience of tothers on this site and I think I have much to learn from all of you. Rock on! :P

3/4/2008 11:20:17 AM

Oh and
P.S. I will be releasing a song shortly, "The Window Pane" that will most likely be listed in a secular genre because it is primarily about friendship with spiritual undertones..so be prepared. :)

3/4/2008 11:38:58 AM

Hi Jo,

I have noticed in particular that everything I have read in your posts in the IAC Topics has been open and true to what I see as true Christian principles and I already respect you for this.

This is a good topic, Jack - Thanks!

Peace 'n Love,
Robin

3/4/2008 11:55:46 AM

WOW!
I just checked out the responses to my post.
Holy (no pun intended) cow!
I was just wondering if my stuff was being listened to or not because of the genre label. Like most in here I want people to listen and tell me what they think of my music.
And believe me I am well aware of the differing beliefs and reactions to those beliefs in the world around me.
Much like Red, my reaction to people sharing the Gospel was to get angry. I used to be on the other side of that fence. So I can kind of understand where Red is coming from.
And I agree that "religion" can be troublesome, especially from those who are trying to force it on others.
But here's where I stand.
Jesus said that if I were to deny Him to those in the world around me for any reason then He will deny me before the Father. Sorry but thats too big a price to pay for anybody or for any reason. Especially for something as dumb as airplay.
And eventhough I apologize for how many have misrepresented Jesus I also have to say that it's NEVER about the people who attempt to represent Him, IT"S ABOUT HIM!
Not religion. Not a church. Not songs labeled as Christian or whatever.
It is all about you and Him and how you respond to Him.
Do yourself a favor. Forget all you've ever heard or seen as far as religion is concerned and answer this one question...
Who do YOU say He is?

And...
what the heck do you think about my songs?
LOL

3/4/2008 12:16:48 PM

Jack,

I added one of your songs to my Alternative Options station. I'm a sucker for Rock-n-Roll in general.

3/4/2008 12:20:45 PM

Thank you kind maam.
And I need to return the favor and listen to your stuff and give you feedback as well.
And I like what you said in the posts as well.

3/4/2008 2:05:20 PM

Jack,
Just be aware as many have said here that Christian rock will be viewed as worship music. If your music is not worship music but has christain themes it may be better to label it as spiritual or something more general. I will check your songs out soon. Good subject it had nice response.

RR,
I agree with you Jo Ellen has a very nice way of putting things. I tend to be more blunt. I mean you no disrespect and I have no probelm with you. I am glad that you express your views even if we don't agree. I think what people believe is between them and God. I am willing to listen to other peoples views. I also try to express my views. I enjoyed reading what you had to say and Superpuss also had some good points. I think this was a good discussion.
Peace
TSC
Ken

3/4/2008 2:41:08 PM

....Ken, if we were in the same space I would shake your hand.

3/4/2008 3:17:46 PM

Thanks Kozy for the reference to "Woe to the Pharisees". That's one of our songs that we put under "Christian/Spiritual" even though it's one of our least accessible songs. Maybe for shock value?

The Pharisees had it all wrong. Jesus condemned them for being "preachy" to put it real simply. Nothing hurts Christianity worse than self-righteousness. As you can see it has the opposite effect of what is intended.

Jack - I have listened to your songs and I'll listen some more. I agree that so much Christian rock is dull.

Jesus condemned the Pharisees and partied with the crooked tax collectors. Come on all us sinners, let's party!

3/4/2008 3:41:51 PM

Stegor,

Christianity has never been a popular idea, but religion for the purpose of power and control has further tainted its credibility. It is unfortunate that the two have been viewed as one-in-the-same. The downfalls of religiosity are made apparent as people recognize the exploitation within the process. You're absolutely right: Jesus hung with the non-religious crowd and works-in-progress like me.

3/4/2008 3:51:03 PM

Oh and yes... Christianity is NOT boring. Nor is Rock-n Roll. The perfect blend.

3/4/2008 4:33:05 PM

"Jesus hung with the non-religious crowd and works-in-progress like me"

....Are you saying that some of the others here you hang out with, including me, are works-in-progress? ;-) I don't necessarily mind being a lady's 'work-in-progress' :-)

3/4/2008 4:40:38 PM

I was specifically speaking about who Jesus hung out with and what I consider myself to be. Thanks for asking.

3/4/2008 5:04:39 PM

Jack, I was moved by your bio and added He Reached Down to my station.

(In your own words) "the song deals with the concept of God reaching down to man instead of what you see in most religions where man reaches up to God. Something to think about."

You've got a good way of putting things. Keep it up.

3/4/2008 6:56:26 PM

I had no idea that my questions would generate such an incredible response. I have to say that all of the comments have been very thoughtful and well worth reading and thinking about. Allthough my beliefs are very "narrow" I do appreciate the honesty of Red Robin and those whose beliefs differ fom mine.
Part of the problem for Christians is in order to stand for our faith it does make us closed minded and intolerant of other beliefs in the sense that the perspective of the Bible makes no bones about the exclusivity of the Gospel message. That message quite simply leaves no room whatsoever for any other possibility for man's salvation other than what Jesus accomplished on that cross. And because of that "narrow way" I can certainly understand people's reaction to this message. It's like "who do those Christians think they are by proclaiming the only way to heaven is through belief in Jesus Christ". But the reality is is that is exactly the message of the Bible We just happen to be people who agree with that message.
But here's another question to folks like Red who do disagree...
Do you have the same response to people who profess Hindu, Muslim, New Age, Buddhist, Native American or any other beliefs? Or is it just when the name "Jesus Christ" enters the fray that you have such strong feelings?
Curious to see what happens now...

3/4/2008 7:26:41 PM

Whoa, this thread is rockin'. The respect extended between people on such a sensitive subject is quite impressive.

I came back to read your post Tatiana and can see why you feel the way you do. I am always deeply disappointed when I hear of experiences like yours, where legalism overode relationships, especially horizontally, and will mourn the loss of your prized mint condition limited edition pink vinyl album of Dark Side of the Moon with you. A friend of mine nearly tossed her Linda Ronstadt vinyls due to the same kind of pressure you underwent, I begged her to reconsider, and they were *saved* (no pun intended). And honestly, for many years I, like Red, was quite frankly turned off by some (not all) Christian witnesses that crossed my path. This doesn't mean that I do not fully accept Christian teachings now, or as Jack mentions would deny Christ, but I think Jo Ellen's eloquent words have actually spoken more closely about how I feel than I could myself. There is only one caveat that crossed my mind and so I'll toss it out. I think that when sharing beliefs, maybe there will be times that no one changes their mind, but I think that can be OK, as long as the topic was done with gentleness, kindness, and closes with respect for the other person's feelings, no matter how far apart the belief systems may be.

xox
~Lace~

3/4/2008 7:31:21 PM

Jack,

I appreciate your comments and I have to say that I agree with everything you are asserting about the Christian belief set. However, I do not view myself as narrowminded. I believe it takes quite an open mind to consider the suppositions of other belief sets and to test these suppositions against the suppositions of the Bible and of science. In contrast, it is close-mindedness in general to accept or reject any theory or supposed "truth" without examining the evidence (be it fact or fiction). I have come to my faith based on evidence and study. I can accept other points of view and reject them at the same time. In effect, I know what I believe and why.

I do agree that sometimes the idea of "narrowmindedness" is projected onto Christians because of the rigidity of Biblical principles, and sometimes Christians can simply be narrowminded (because it is a human disease). I also know that sometimes Biblical excerpts are used grossly out of context (by human beings) and have damaged real relationships and people. Christianity is controversial because Jesus was controversial. The gross misuse of Christianity through religious oppression (by human beings) has also damaged its credibility.

I appreciate your heart. The true message of Christianity is God's immense love for humankind and restoration of the relationship between God and humankind through Jesus Christ.

Now that we've covered doctrine...
I do have to say that I respect the convictions of others who truly believe
in what they believe. I simply have to reject these beliefs based on the evidence.

3/4/2008 7:37:20 PM

Jo Ellen, I am continually impressed by your presentation which is both honest and non-offensive, a task not always easy to accomplish.

PS Did I thank you for putting BBE on your station again? :D

xox
~Lace~

3/4/2008 8:12:35 PM

Once agan the comments are incredible.

Jo Ellen- I'm not sure if we really disagree. My faith is pretty much based on the same examination process you speak of. For instance one of my favorite Bible teachers is Ravi Zacharias whose ministry is called "Let My People Think". And it was God who was quoted as saying, "let us reason together". I call myself narrow because for many years I rejected the Gospel and sought for God in so many other areas. It was when I approaced the Scriptures as at least perhaps being the truth that i stopped searching. I just knew that I had found what I was looking for and felt no need to look anywhere else. I had found living water that quenched my thirst I just developed a thirst for more of this water.
One of the amazing things about studying the word is that the more I have studied through the years the more I am convinced of it's claims. And this is coming from one who was and at times still is a major sceptic. I see nothing wrong with questioning/ it's been a vital part of the process/ but once the question has been answered...
I also have tremendous respect for the beliefs of others but my belief causes an even greater response than respect and thats fear. Fear of the consequences for those who reject Christ as savior.
I admit it, I am a fundamentalist. And as wonderful as being respectful of one another's beliefs is, I am gnawed to the core with the question of what is of greater importance? Respect or giving someone who is about to enter eternity the warning of love?
I would rather someone hurt my feelings than to allow me to walk straight into danger.

3/4/2008 8:21:59 PM

Jack,

I don't think we disagree at all. I think it is a matter of terminology. Jesus is the "narrow way", but I am by no means narrow minded because I accept this as truth. That is all. No real dispute. I just wanted to clarify the difference.

3/4/2008 8:58:22 PM

Jack,
I wanted to add after re-reading your comment that I by no means water down my beliefs for the sake of others. I, however, am compelled to help others understand the point of creation (why am I here?) and the point of all to familiar, yet infrequently understood Christian term "salvation" which embodies God's greatest act of love toward humankind [the best way I have heard it told is that we have been provided an aquittal, but we must accept it in order to escape death row (author Tim LaHaye)]. But it doesn't stop there, because the real point is restoration: a restored and wonderful relationship with the Creator in the here and now.

Regarding the views of others & my own quest for understanding:

Belief systems are often intrinsic to personal identity and when challenged, individuals become reflexively defensive (or offended). The best remedy for an identity crisis is to really know what you believe and why. I believe this allows us to be "grounded"-less likely to be tossed by the legitimate questions or accusations of others. And in view of my own convictions, I can only conclude that others feel just as strongly about their own. I have to respect that, even as I disagree.

3/4/2008 9:09:16 PM

A good thread Jack....
I respect each individuals right to believe how they see fit ... I have read the Bible from front to back (more than once) ... I'm a curious fellow of sorts so I have also studied the writings of many religions ... I've got some issues with all of them ...
In the first place they were all written by men ... In the second place you can talk to 10 different people that strongly believe in their faith and yet you can get 10 different interpretations of the same writing they profess to follow ...
I don't need to be told that there is only one way to Heaven ... and no, I am not in denial ... and no, I am not "lost" in fear ... and no, I don't need anyone praying for my soul, that someday I may see the light ...
Cuz... I see that light everyday

I believe in a higher power ... and I believe in a straight line connection ... If you can get the feeling of "God" through the __scriptures fine ... personally I get that feeling delivered straight into my being ... I don't need someone to tell me ... and I don't need to read any book ...
Even in your own __scriptures, it will tell you "God" lives inside each and every one of us ... I don't need the Bible to convince me of something that I already know exist ...
"God" doesn't need books or preachers to reach inside of my soul ... The Bible has many very good moral stories ... and many good teachings ... (God knows I've felt like Job many times) ... but that is as far as it goes IMO ... It is just Man's words and interpretations and nothing more ...

The Power that I believe in doesn't need such trivialities as language ... after all, language itself is a Man made thing ... Human beings use language to communicate, when it's really not necessary at all ... but that's another subject

3/4/2008 11:40:24 PM

Sam,

I completely agree with you. I want to elaborate on my perspective here but I don't have time right now. I have a recording session with the girls from Lash78 in 45 mins and I have to get my studio set up. We're recording their debut EP.

What I will say now though is that, like you, I do have a connection to God, but not in the traditional Christian sense. Anyway, I'll elaborate further later :-)

SuperPuss
SuperPuss video

3/5/2008 12:10:41 AM

Hi Sam,

You have taken the words out of my mouth (and written it much better!). I feel very similarly to you. I have to rush and take my daughter to school right now, so I'll catch up with this thread later.

And yet again, I seem to agree with SugarPuss.

3/5/2008 12:41:03 AM

Superpuss is a damn smart lady that would seem to have a heart as big as her brain, and Sam, your words speak such an spiritually intelligent language that comes from hard won wisdom and a sincere respect and understanding for diversity. You have endeared my heart you golden souls. I feel kindred to what you are voicing. I do my best to avoid most discussions on religion as it's the usual dogma and so forth and it never ends up good and somehow things always twist into a microcosm of the bigger picture that we've all seen play out so many times before throughout history up until the present day. It's nothing new... Whats new is when we can honor each others differences in values... and not feel threatened by merely listening to each other and even if we find disagreement it is phenomenal to embrace such a thing and even find beauty therein.

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to share such poignant perspectives. -anjuli

3/5/2008 12:42:29 AM

Yes books were written by men but is it possible that 66 of those books were actually inspired by God Himself to give a particular message to mankind. I have no problem believing that God is quite capable of pulling off that stunt in spite of man's various interpretations and misrepresentations of that message.
And despite the various opinions and outlooks there is one major central theme in the Bible that I have yet to see anyone rationally explain away and that's the cross itself.
If there are all these various ways to God and if salvation is not an issue then what was the purpose of that sacrifice of a completely innocent man? Why would that one act according to the Scriptures be the one thing that God looks upon and states, "It is finished" which means the debt of man's sin has been paid in full and then goes on to say if one believes in this act of atonement then salvation is granted.
Was it unnecessary? Was it just for those who call themselves Christian and the others get to find another way? Because if that's the case then we who do call ourselves Christian are to be pitied above all others for we have been fooled in the worst possible way.
No matter what anyone's interpretation of the Bible is, I cannot rationally explain away the intent and purpose of the crucifixion. And I have yet to hear a solid rational argument that makes sense in my mind that explains it away. This is not a matter of interpretation. The words are absolutely crystal clear regarding the meaning of that event. A person either accepts it or they don't. I am sorry but in my mind heart and soul there is no gray area in this matter. And until that event can be rationally explained away I will literally place my life on the One who died on that cross. Not on my feelings, my experience or anybody's interpretation. I simply place all of it in faith that He died for me.
And for you.

3/5/2008 2:20:59 AM

I promise I am not trying to stir up any troubles by posting this. I have no impish designs as you might see me posting absurdities here and there. It is only humor I am attempting most times...just a silly non sequitur or a ridiculous notion in hopes of lightening things up here and there. It's true, there are certain topics that pull more so at my heart strings and I too find myself becoming impassioned to voice an opinion but I mean no disrespect or mockery to those that are impassioned upon this thread in favor of religion and Christianity. This is one topic I try to avoid and detach myself from just for sanity sake, but there is a reason I am posting this and not just because I believe we all take ourselves a bit too seriously at times...

I am posting this to show that there are many different ways to perceive the same thing... and the truth is not always such a literal thing. Poetry has proven this time and time again.

Having said that, there is something that bothers me most of all about the literal interpretations of Christianity... and that is in regards to our youth. It has to do with Armageddon. My question is how can you tell our young people to do good in school and keep an eye towards their future on one hand while on the other you are telling them that the end of the world is coming soon? It would seem that the end of the world has been coming soon for centuries. Our youth need to believe in a future beyond war and destruction... and it is important that they have access to more horizons then what the unempowering "end of days" has in store for them. I'm sorry to say, but this one issue disturbs me because they shouldn't have to embrace death and a heaven that they cannot yet grasp while they are at the precipice of embracing life and their own dreams...

I am not blaming any one particular religion or institution... but I will say that this notion of the end of days and Armageddon is not helping our youth to belief in much of a future overall. They want their time like we've had ours... and they want life...not death. They want heaven here now...not some mythical place that may or may not even exist. That is all... I hope you will forgive me and realize I am not attempting to debate your religion with you... I respect all religions and recognize truth and good in all things same as I do the negatives. We all have much light and darkness within us and it is a choice which parts of ourselves we cultivate due to our own individual values. Please, just consider for a moment a different way of looking at the same thing... and perhaps think of how damaging the notions of Armageddon are upon our up and coming generations and they already have global warming and so many issues they've inherited... it must be overwhelming.

I love the teachings of Christ as it would seem to harbor keys to obtain happiness within, the way to an inner freedom, if you will, that being my take. Forgiveness is not a favor we do for God but rather for ourselves as it allows us to live in the now...without the weight of the past upon us. We are dead in the past, and we don't exist in the future... we are only alive right now... now where we are breathing and now is where we must create a heaven for ourselves and each other. How is this possible when one mans heaven is another mans hell ? I believe it's as possible as you believe your redeemer is... but embracing diversity is crucial.
I don't want to have to wait for someone to save us.. . and if there is a heaven, I hope everyone gets invited... even those that many might deem unworthy. I wish we didn't value suffering so much as a way to virtue. Seems no one is going to get out of this life without a broken heart one way or another... all I know is that we need hope to find the strength to go on, and if Jesus is that hope for you then no one can take it away by sharing a different viewpoint, but the promise of our ultimate doom sure can...

I've babbled

3/5/2008 2:34:00 AM

Hi girls and guys.... Love you all ... :)

In the first place I'm not here to try to "un-convert" you and I truly hope it all works out for you Jack ...
In the second place, contrary to what most Christians believe, I am not doing the Devil's works by questioning the Bible ... "God" gave me a brain ... and whether you want to believe it or not he speaks to me through my soul ... Surely if you believe that your God is great enough to give men these stories to write, then you should have no problem believing that he still speaks to men and can pull off that "stunt" as well ...

I'm not a religion expert and will never claim to be ... but I am a bit of a history buff and a book nut as well ...
I'm not sure I get your point Jack but I'll give a stab at a reply ... Man has been duping man since man came along ...
In the first place Jesus is not mentioned in near all 66 books of the Bible ...
In the second place the Collection of 66 books you refer to as the Bible are just that ... a collection of books ...
If you know history, you know that there were actually (on the minimum) at least 15 other books that belong in that collection that those that did the compiling felt didn't belong in the Bible because they didn't exactly fit the mold they were trying to create ... if these books were truly inspired by God (including your 66) why did man come along and leave part of them out of the Bible, and why did Man feel the need to edit the Bible from cover to cover ?
In the third place ... Almost all of the stories in the Old Testament were plagiarized from earlier writings, a little modification, a tweek here and a tweek there and PRESTO, now they were inspired by God ?

"If there are all these various ways to God and if salvation is not an issue then what was the purpose of that sacrifice of a completely innocent man? No matter what anyone's interpretation of the Bible is, I cannot rationally explain away the intent and purpose of the crucifixion. And I have yet to hear a solid rational argument that makes sense in my mind that explains it away. This is not a matter of interpretation. The words are absolutely crystal clear regarding the meaning of that event."

In the fourth place ... Jesus died on the cross ... I've got news for you ... At that time in history LOTS of people died on the cross and contrary to what has been taught, Jesus was not the only "innocent man" to die that way ... not anywhere near all of those people were thieves and criminals ...

Again ... you are reading Man's Crystal clear words that "WERE" an interpretation ...

IMO .. the Bible was written to "Put the fear of God" into people so they could be controlled ... you have to remember things were much different before the days of knowlege ...

"I am sorry but in my mind heart and soul there is no gray area in this matter. And until that event can be rationally explained away I will literally place my life on the One who died on that cross. Not on my feelings, my experience or anybody's interpretation. I simply place all of it in faith that He died for me.
And for you."

You don't have to be sorry one bit ... You have your right to believe anything you care too ... Man has a funny mind .. I'd be willing to bet that even if someone Could give you a ration explanation that explains away the cross, that you still would feel the same way ... and I'm not telling you that there is anything wrong with that ... that is your prerogative ... just as it is mine to know that "God" has entrusted me with the glory of his presence, without the need to be told by any middle men.

3/5/2008 2:43:05 AM

....Hmmm....Am I the only one here who sees that vid you posted, Anjuli, as yet more burying of Pagan beliefs by Christianity?

3/5/2008 2:53:02 AM

Very interesting ... Anjuli ! ... I was writing my post while you were posting yours ... kind of fits my "third place" at the end ...

3/5/2008 3:03:15 AM

That's the Vid I mean ... About fitting #3 ... but your post was magnificent .. your writing ... Very thoughtful and well meaning ... and very caring ... I too believe that God gave us this Earth to make as much a heavenly place for the children as possible .. What a great sentiment ....

3/5/2008 3:03:19 AM

ha ha oh well...so much for joining in the reindeer fun.

Jack had mentioned the cross thing so I thought I'd post... well... a cross thing and have my deranged yet eloquent Sermon on the Mount moment in hopes of right here and now forever abolishing the literal interpretations of Revelations altogether !!! ha-ha Viva la Life !!!

sorry, I'm not laughing at anyone it's just that it's all so absurd and yet it frightens the hell out of me at the same time. I'm going away now... love and all that good stuff

3/5/2008 3:08:45 AM

Oh damn I lied...one more thing... Sam, thank you. I feel the same in regards to you.

3/5/2008 4:45:34 AM

....Brilliant! Larree!! Feckin' brilliant!!

Did you pen that?

3/5/2008 5:09:21 AM

About the video

May I suggest that the bias is BACKWARDS.

Of course, Christ (as the son of God) is in complete harmony with the universe.

"All things were made through Him, and there is nothing that was not made through Him"

Therefore all that pagan stuff is a cheap imitation of His glory.

Watch the video again from that perspective if your mind can be thus disposed.

3/5/2008 5:30:43 AM

kk (not KKK!) wrote:

"About the video

May I suggest that the bias is BACKWARDS.

Of course, Christ (as the son of God) is in complete harmony with the universe.

"All things were made through Him, and there is nothing that was not made through Him"

Therefore all that pagan stuff is a cheap imitation of His glory.

Watch the video again from that perspective if your mind can be thus disposed."

....But that's what I meant - That the vid tries to hijack Pagan beliefs. This has been going on for centuries. Where have most churches been built? - Directly on established sacred sites.

No, I do not accept that "All things were made through Him, and there is nothing that was not made through Him. Therefore all that pagan stuff is a cheap imitation of His glory." - We'll have to agree to differ :-)

3/5/2008 5:50:48 AM

you're right the church was wrong to adopt all those pagan distortions to keep the people happy, but you miss the point. It doesn't make the pagan stuff TRUE.

3/5/2008 6:18:38 AM

kk - Yes I know it doesn't make the Pagan stuff true - No more true than any other religion or doctrine. It's a "Great Mystery" which doesn't need resolving but just accepting and respecting, but most human beings unfortunately feel they have to find answers to everything.

I would go as far as saying that all mankind's religions are just intellectual attempts to explain existence. They are all similar but with variations born from environment and circumstances. They provide human morality and support for many, and also the opportunity for some to abuse. There are too many wars due to people thinking that 'God' is solely on their side.

Christianity (in my opinion) is only ONE answer to some people's needs and not the only answer as some would have others believe.

3/5/2008 6:32:07 AM

....[Edit]: As Anjuli has written: "there are many different ways to perceive the same thing".

Anjuli's post is so articulate. In fact there are many very tolerant and articulate comments in this thread, regardless of belief or opinion.

3/5/2008 6:45:45 AM

Anjuli,
I agree with you the end of days is a scary subject. The bible has many things to say about these days. Your also right that this scares people. It should. There are many ways that God communicates his love. One of these ways is by warning people of the dangers ahead. Would you not warn your child if they were about to touch a hot stove? This is what God does in revelations. He wants us to know that the end of time is going to be difficult and there will be struggles. He also wants to let us know that there is a winner in the battle and that is Jesus.

Sam,
I respect your views. I also believed for a time that the biblbe was only a series of books written by men. You are in fact correct it is. But Jesus teaches us to look at the spirit of the law not the literal meaning of it. We also have to look at the context of history to see how the bible was written. The books in bible was choosen by a church counsel. This was many chruches with many elders and they all agreed that the 66 books were correct. The bible is one of very few books that even people who do not believe its message will agree that it is historically correct. So my question to you on this is:
If the bible was really a book only written by men and not inspired by God. How do so many people including secular historians of no faith agree this message is historicaly true? If the bible was really only written by men how did all of the churches and counsil agree that all of these 66 books were the ones to use?

I am not telling you that you have to read the bible to be saved. I think you are right you can have a direct contact with God without it. I believe that God knows that we are forgetful creatures he gave us his word so that there is a reminder of what was said and done in the past and what this means for our future.
TSC
Ken

3/5/2008 8:04:03 AM

....No, Ken - The "end of days", whether you mean it either for the individual or for mankind, is NOT a scary subject for everyone. I best not start about the Heaven and Hell in afterlife concepts which are taught!

You say that the all the churches and council agreed about the bible/books - Those guys weren't biassed towards Christianity by any chance were they?

Written by men inspired by their belief in God but not indisputably 'written' by God through men - there's a difference.

The principles of Jesus's teachings are without doubt extremely admirable but no more admirable than the teachings of Islam or Buddha and others.

But we could discuss/debate/argue about this all day and for the rest of time. I'll leave you to follow your faith and wish you peace.

Just declaring "Christian Rock" as a music genre can't help but invite challenges, as it would also do if "Islamic Rock". Do you fancy "Jewish Rock", Larree? :-). I fancy "Buddhist Ambient" as a genre.

3/5/2008 8:39:04 AM

Larree,
The old testament is based on the jewish law. Over 50% of the bible is jewish teachings. The only difference between jewish faith and christian faith is that the jews do not accept Jesus as the son of god. Even though the jewish people do not agree with the teaching of the gospel in the new testament they do not say that this is historically untrue.

RR,
You are right we could debate all day. If you believe the bible was biassed and all of the counsel of churches shared that same bias that is your right to believe. I do not try to convince you that I am right just saying how I see it. You do the same and that is ok. There is nothing wrong with opposing views. I do agree with your statement of "Written by men inspired by their belief in God"

I very much enjoy all the thoughtful responses from everyone this is intelligent discussion.
TSC
Ken

3/5/2008 9:03:37 AM

I'm not Jewish and I don't accept the New Testament as "historical truth" either :-).

But I'm gonna agree to differ :-).

3/5/2008 9:20:44 AM

Larree and RR,
I think we are talking about different things. What I mean about historical truth is that there was a man called Jesus and he did claim to be the son of God. I am not asking that you believe what he said was true. All I am saying is that this is a historical fact that has been proven by many people of no faith.

There have been many studies on the origin on the bible and many books written about it. That does not mean you have to believe the message. That is for the reader to decide. As I said before I think what each persons belief is between God and them. I do not try to convince you RR or anyone else what I say is right.
All I say is how I see it and anyone has the right to disagree.

So if you have any historical proof that Jesus never existed I would be very interested to know what source you have found this information.
TSC
Ken

3/5/2008 10:34:48 AM

My god this thread has become the BLOB ! Soon it will consume all of iac and it's surrounding inhabitants!

Larree... you very funny clever man. Can you get that made up on a t shirt ? Send me one and I will sport it...

Red Robin wrote : "...[Edit]: As Anjuli has written: "there are many different ways to perceive the same thing". Anjuli's post is so articulate. In fact there are many very tolerant and articulate comments in this thread, regardless of belief or opinion"

Thank you R.R. And might I add that I too embrace The Great Mystery... and science as well. I believe there is a meeting place for both. Absolutism is so very absolute. It's good to banty about different ideas and perspectives whether they are concrete facts or theories. Each and every one of our beliefs effects each other and perhaps that is why there is so much attempt at controling such things.

This thread has been interesting to say the least, but I find it refreshing how our differences are being batted about in such a peaceful way. Perhaps that is due to our seperation by way computer and how it lends itself to us having to think before we speak. I wish you all many blessings and a beautiful day! -anjuli

3/5/2008 10:36:37 AM

I just wanted to add here that at the core of the Christian belief set God's desire and intention to have a direct-line relationship with humankind (remembering the Eden of Genesis).

Also, I wanted to respond that in any experience or belief set you cannot negate the impact of human influence. In this light, everything including science is interpretational. The real question then, is fallibility.

3/5/2008 10:36:47 AM

My last words on the subject ....
You will never get me to believe that Christians hold a monopoly on Heaven ....
... and you will never get me to believe the only way to Heaven is through Jesus Christ ...
... and you will never get me to believe that someone born in the backwaters of Borneo or other isolated areas, that have little or no books, that have had no contact or even know of the Bible are Damned to hell because they didn't repent and except a savior that they knew nothing about.
.... and you will never ever get me to believe that a child that dies, that was born and raised in another religion is damned to hell.
"God" either talks to you or he doesn't ... and he talks to me ... and he worries very deeply about how Christians and others have been taught and what they teach ...

I was a Christian once ... for a very long time ... and then I saw the light ...
I am more at peace with God now than ever before in my life ... I am also a much happier person ... and any Christian will tell you that I am disillusioned and blah blah blah .... They cannot grasp the fact that people who don't believe what they do, could be looked upon by "God" as worthy people ... Well he is ever present in my life .. (I use the term he and God only for language purposes) ... and I am blessed to see the sunrises, the sunsets and smiling children ... I am also blessed to have many, many friends, Christians and Muslims and Jews and Buddhist and Mormons and Atheist and others as well...
I am also blessed to know that I will be reunited with my friends from all religions after I leave this World that Man has tried to manipulate to his liking....

3/5/2008 10:42:35 AM

Darn ... I lied .... I want to thank everyone for this discussion ... I enjoyed it immensely .... I too am glad that we have evolved from Savages into people who can hold a constructive conversation without getting mean...
There is hope for humanity yet, I think....

3/5/2008 10:46:14 AM

A N D



....No further comment :-)

3/5/2008 10:46:33 AM

Hey Red - loving the logo's you have been posting up!!!!

Thought provoking I would say!!!

3/5/2008 10:53:49 AM

TMWNB: Rock ON! Thanks for your honesty.

3/5/2008 11:10:25 AM

I just want to know when are the royalties coming in the mail from the traffic that I caused in this BLOB...oops I mean Message Thread Thingy.
But seriously folks, I commend everyone here for showing one another mad respect for what are very emotionally intense views. As Jo Ellen said our identities can be very much tied into our beliefs. I know mine are. And considering many other places on the Web where similar discussions turn real ugly real fast I must say I am happy to see how we have all behaved in a respectful and mature manner.
I could go on and on even more about answers to stuff being brought up but after awhile its get to be like watching my dog chase it's tail. Initially it's funny and entertaining but after awhile it becomes pointless and annoying. Especially if the dog is in front of the TV and is in the way of my remote.
Maybe, just maybe, the fact that we are all musicians gives us a certain sensitivity that comes through in how we deal with the people in the world around us, including those with views different from our own. I guess thats another subject for another thread.
And I'll be a waiting at the mail box.

3/5/2008 11:27:54 AM

This topic should be backed up twice or maybe more times!! It is one of the most wonderful interactions I have seen on the Pipeline so far. There are agreements and polar opposites of opinion involving a subject that traditionally causes much fighting and arguing.
I think the nature of the comments and posts here prove that we are a truly diverse bunch who genuinely accept and respect differences of opinion. :-)
I want to reply to everyone here, even though this is not my topic!!! However, that would take an aeon (pun intended).

Anjuli,
I just adored your post and that Youtube video is extremely interesting. Sure, it has biases just as everyone else has but the information in it is something I have not heard before and is yet another perspective that I will explore.

My perception of 'God' is most certainly one of a higher power but I also believe that this higher power can be perceived in many ways as is evidenced by the multitudes of religions, including science.
God, Great Spirit, Creator, Universal Love, Universal Energy, whatever you want to call it, I believe is actually the same thing. If you take a look outside the square and investigate these possibilities, it can be a very enlightening experience.
I am qualified in electronics and am absolutely fascinated by quantum physics. I am also what I consider to be a deeply spiritual person and, on the surface, science and spirituality may appear contradictory but they are not!
Many of the abilities of humans have been lost in modern society but are beginning to be rediscovered. Things like telepathy and long distance communications between people (without the use of technology) are nothing new or 'freaky' to many traditional cultures. There are a growing number of westerners (myself included) who are awakening to these natural abilities through the information passed on by elders in traditional cultures.
Now, the thing that really fascinates me about all this is that science has evolved to a point where it is actually possible to measure and record some of this 'psychic' phenomina. Studying these capabilites from a quantum perspective also works. Quantum Physics and Spirituality actually go hand in hand.
I don't need any scientific discoveries to know that the spiritual things I have awakened to are very much real and very powerful hovever, because I happen to have a scientific background, it absolutely fascinates me that two previously contradictory fields are now supporting each other. It brings me much joy to be able to meld all this knowledge into a common existence which is my life.

It also works perfectly for me as a musician. I have a fascination for synthesizers and other electronic instruments (as well as acoustic and traditional instruments) and I love creating organic feeling music with such equipment. That to me is a spiritual experience that I can share with anyone who happens to like my music.

Anyway, I have gone of on tangents again, as this thread tends to inspire and it is 6:36am and I have been up all night AGAIN!!! lol :-D

So it's goodnight from the Puss again. Meow and Purr!!

SuperPuss
SuperPuss video

3/5/2008 1:27:17 PM

---I just want all of you to know I have read every word here!!

---and some more than once-----You all inspire me to be a better person!!

3/5/2008 2:42:33 PM

Laree,
There were not a lot of teachers claiming to be sons of God. In fact Jesus was called out on blasphamy for saying this. He was crucified for saying it. None of the jewish teachers or early christian teachers claimed to be the son of God that I know of. In fact many times in the bible if someone started to worship an apostle they would say "get up I am a man just like you" Jesus is the only person in the bible to accept worship because this is reserved for divinity.

I know you don't accept Christ. That is ok you have a right to your belief. Let us not change the historical facts.

If you find any verse in the bible of someone other than Jesus claiming to be the son of God let me know what it is I would be very interested in it.
TSC
Ken

3/5/2008 3:17:30 PM

An old philosopher once said: "Give one group too much rope and they'll fuck it up." This is why we as the human race should embrace all religions and believes
because this will create a balance...that is as long as the belief instills goodwill towards thier fellow man.

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