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Papa don't preach
I always used to think that a simple three minute pop song was a perfectly valid place to espouse my philosophy. But I'm starting to realize that people don't necessarily want to be preached to about what I think, feel or believe. I think people just want to hear sounds that move them - that's why there are so many hit songs that mean absolutely nothing.

But I do appreciate lyrics and am gratified when I hear words that do mean something, or are even poetic. I think good lyrics are icing on the cake. If the song moves me sonically, AND has good lyrics, it makes me glad that the song exists. If I like the sound, but the words are just babble, it degrades the art to me.

What do you think? Do you care if a song has anything to say? Or are you happy just with cool sounds? Of course, I know ideally that you'd want both. But how into lyrics are you? If you had to do a 10 scale of the importance of lyric to music ratio how would it look? For me, as a listener, I think it's about 6/4 - The sound is about a 6 and the lyrics a 4. But when I write I think it's more like 2/8. The importance of the lyric is an 8 at least, otherwise, why write lyrics at all? They're more than just musical sounds.

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Bryon Tosoff

6/18/2011 12:31:48 PM ---- Updated 6/18/2011 12:33:57 PM

Truth, read what I said in one of the blogs below. not sure which one, eye of the beholder as in your paintings, u could like one so much and love it to death and think wow , greatest thing i ever did, but no one gets it, except you, then you do something shitty, and everyone digs it, and in the ear of the listener, is there a hook that catches their attention, is their something that they connect to, how does it resonate with them , its what grabs the listener, maybe a specific thing , the beatles were great at it......their melodies grab people, the lyrics the rhythm. ,,,,but now there are so many groups bands performers that are just doing stuff and say look at what we did upload , check our tunes out, we are on the intershit now. pretty cool shite that is eh,............media overload,too much crap and junk out there IMO, does the cream really rise to the top, or that other stuff, i listen to loads of cds for promotions.... maybe 1/10 or 20 gets to me , if that the rest,,,,,to the garbage can to the right of me

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Bob Elliott

6/18/2011 5:00:22 PM

I think trying to get a message out is usually one of the seven deadly sins of songwriting. Just kills so many good ideas.

It's not a choice between either a message or just cool sounds, as you sort of set it up here. The fact is, 'messages' are usually just bad writing. I mean look at book writers. Any of the ones where you can define their messages are generally in the junior leagues. What is Picasso's message? What is Neruda's message? What is James Joyce's message?

The ART is THE MESSAGE, and it's the message that will always, thank God, be stubbornly difficult to decipher, and we will drink from that indecipherable well and nourish our indecipherable souls. Be thankful that sort of electricity runs through you, but never confuse this as a tool to tell the world about your logic. The creative electricity is the force that moves, and so you let it move you. It's a big force, so we need to get our messages out of the way.

Or in the basics of writing 101, we show don't tell. Messages are ALWAYS someone telling. But the riveting stuff is the painting the picture of reality, details of sensations and strange tricks of rhyme and sound. Stuff you're very good at.

An artist's general feel will also come out, and that is kind of a message. You want love, peace, I know, and that will resonate in your music, but there will never be a need to direct your audience's attention there like a lesson. I always feel like the artist thinks we're stupid when they try to slip that stuff in. More importantly, my mind just skips away from that sort of thing like it does from a commercial.

So for Dreamtown, check the messages at the door. You soar so high when you paint word art. Like, for example, on "Sometime Later." (A song on our soon to be out album). You have strange evocative poetry there with pictures. The section of your verse I cut out at the end for that musical break felt like it had a heavy handed message, and it always pulled me out of the cloud the song had put me in. In the current version with that verse cut, I just drift out into that instrumental music space and the open ended poetry that came before is mind opening for me. That is so much more mind enhancing than people laying out their principles.

I know right brain left brain stuff is oversimplified, but in that simplified language: messages are kind of left brain stuff, yet music and art is kind of right brain stuff.

At least that's how I feel about your question. I like sensation way better than message.

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Stoneman

6/18/2011 5:19:50 PM

Yeah, I believe that the lyrics to a song are very important. Even if I don't like the tune or melody, the lyrics often catch my attention and override my dislike of the melody or genre. There are some genres that I just can't stomach no matter how good the lyrics are.

One of the biggest negative critiques in my own music has been that it was too deep or too personal for someone's taste. On the flip side, that has also gained me great acclaim. I often find myself saying wtf as reactions to a song are so diverse. So, I suppose its all according to what the listener is into. Some people don't want to deal with anything deep. They just want to be entertained with a good beat that makes them want to dance. My goal has always been to reach those expectations while giving them a dose of my inner thoughts, perspectives and opinion. But, every now and then I just write a song that has no social or philosophical merit. Those songs are meant to entertain and have less personal attachment to me or my thoughts. Some genres are like that. Dance music generally doesn't have much to offer in regards to a message. When I take my wife dancing we don't care about the lyrics to the song. Beat becomes the main focal point of our night. If it has a good beat we get up and dance. They could be saying kill all people on the floor and we wouldn't care. If not, we sit there looking disappointed. I think a lot of artists get so caught up in the message that they forget to be entertaining. Although I hear a lot of junk on the radio, I must admit that some of that junk at least has some entertainment value. A good meaningless hook like "Who Let The dogs Out" becomes a hit just because it is repetitious and has a fun beat.

One of the reasons for this is that people are dealing with heavy crap in their daily lives all the time. So much so that they just want to escape into something meaningless but fun. Although those songs don't have much to offer in regards to message, they are valuable because they make people happy and festive. My ultimate goal in music is to make the listener happy. So I understand why some artists have songs about big butts and party chants.

But, often when I listen to other artists music, I like to hear something that moves me. Lyrics and music are about a 50/50 split for me. For instance, the music can be funky and make me want to dance but if it is laced with degrading stuff towards women, religion or race, I turn it off. I just can't listen to that crap. It can sound amateurish and recorded badly but if it has a good message I will listen to it. A good message is a good start in my opinion. If you can surround that with comparable music, that will lead me to listen all the way to the end.

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Tom O'Brien

6/18/2011 6:10:28 PM

Good, thoughtful comments, all. I guess that ideally, the art is something that acts as a bridge from soul to soul. However that works - with lyrics or sounds or beats - it's a good thing. I like to think that there are things inside of us all that cannot be connected with anything other than music. I get it when I hear Bob Marley sing. I get it when I hear Stevie sing. So many others. It connects me to them internally. The song is just a medium. I hope that if anyone hears my music, they can connect with what I'm all about without having to explain.

With Dreamtown, My and Bob's new forthcoming project, The groove was there from the inception of every song. Just the first few tracks we put down, without words or polish, were so moving on their own that I could just listen to them over and over. I didn't try to talk about my philosophy in these 11 songs. I just tried to imbue them with my spirit. The lyrics are poetry in that you don't always know what the poet is really saying, but you understand the emotion behind it in the sounds and textures of the words. I treated my lyrics to Dreamtown as tonal elements the same way I use color in paintings. You don't always have to make the sky blue and the grass green. Sometimes that's just not how it feels.

If I have anything I really need to say to people, maybe a song will open a communication between us to where we can sit down, smoke a j or have some wine and discuss the things that really matter - love and creativity. This forum is a good example of where words are important. There's plenty of time to talk without having to co-opt a song to do it.

I'm thinking more about entertainment value, Stoneman, but with more of an emotional connection. I totally understand having music that is just fun to dance to, but I've never been able to write for that purpose. Don't know why. I want catharsis. I don't think that's asking too much. There are songwriters for every reason under the sun - I'm still (and may always be) defining my niche. I don't ever want to be locked in to one kind of writing. I think life is changeable and dynamic and an artist who just does the same old thing for his whole career is not necessarily embracing that. Every song is a little snapshot of who you were when you wrote it. I never have any idea of what's going to come out of me next, and I like it that way. That's part of the mystery of music. We never tame it.

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Stoneman

6/18/2011 9:50:59 PM

You are certainly on the right track Tom. Your approach to your recent project as outlined in this thread is awesome. Ultimately whatever you do musically will have a strong dose of you. My approach has always been to try the things I have never been able to do. That's why I have done so many kinds of music. Maybe a dance tune would be something to aspire to some day. Just for the fun of it. I start each recording session with the phrase "Time to have fun". Rock, Ballad, Dance, Pop, Gospel, Jazz, Soul, Funk or whatever. It's all one great big blast for me. Collaboration is a great way to learn new styles. That's how I got into Reggae, Rock and Pop. Right now I am working on a country musical stage play with a local country songwriter. Plus, I am writing a children song for my rbothers animated film. I know, I am way out of my element but that is what makes doing it so intriguing to me. There is truly something special about taking a dose of you and adding it to someone else s sound. Emotional connection is essential. Music that can be felt is timeless. I feel your music. It is not a genre that I frequent. But it has a great appeal even for a primarily R&B man like me. I listen to everything you post. That in itself speaks volumes about your work. If I didn't like it, I just flat out wouldn't listen or comment. The message is your biggest strength. But you also have a great flair with melody. The last song you posted about a girl losing her virginity was very edgy and pure. I liked that! Keep expanding and discovering all that great music from inside of you. The message will always be there. Thats who you are.

But me? I'm all over the place. That's who I am. I love to reach people with my message. But I also like to entertain them. I have my emotional message moments and then I hit'em over the head with some of that good old stank funk from the hood. Even when I am writing gospel there is a certain sound that is uniquely me in it. Much different message, but still me. There is a big musical world out here and I want to explore every inch of it before I move on to the other side of life.

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Bryon Tosoff

6/18/2011 10:12:02 PM

insightful comments from Tom Bob and Stoneman. I guess what I was trying to do, is enjoy the moment of the creation of your wonderful art, and All you musicians are fantastic writers and I dig your tunes and have added many to the stations I have. much respect and continued success to you all, keep making music and enjoy the moments, inspiration is what I thrive on, I know nothing else, I cant think a song through, or write lyrics. for me its mostly instrumentals and generally it is spontaneous......kudos to anyone capable of having the ability to be a lyricist and a songcrafter weaving the two elements together

bryon

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Richard Scotti

6/18/2011 10:24:47 PM ---- Updated 6/19/2011 8:43:39 AM

Great insights from all who have posted on this subject and a great question from Tom!

When the Beatles sang: "All you need is love!" we're they being preachy? Perhaps.
In fact the whole song is one that gives advice. But it's the way that they do it that makes it art and not just telling other people what to do. Is it a message song? Sure. There are lot's of messages in the song but again, it's the way the music is written and the words sung that makes it more meaningful and entertaining than a telegram or a soapbox speech.

I try to write about things I know without claiming to have any answers for anyone else. I attempt to share my philosophy on life, death, love, existence, purpose, loss,regret, redemption, overcoming the odds, and whatever else is flowing through my consciousness at any given moment. I'm asking questions, not providing solutions because I'm as clueless as the next guy about why bad things happen to good people or why the world is so messed up. I can only share my own experiences in the hope that others will be able to relate to them and perhaps be inspired or learn something from them.

I think Bob Dylan is the ultimate lyric writer because he allows the listener to interpret the words in any way that he or she wants to. In his heart and mind I believe he knows exactly what he's writing about even when it may seem like gibberish to some but he doesn't care if you get it or not. He just puts it out there in a clever, literary and poetic way and it's up to you to do the work of understanding his original intention while at the same time the song is just as valid if you give it a totally different meaning because in the end the song is a puzzle that may have many different ways of solving it. There is no right or wrong to it. That's why Dylan NEVER discusses the meaning of his songs because he wants them to have multiple meanings. The mystery of the lyrics is the magic of what he does just like magicians never reveal how they create illusions because it would destroy the magic!

When I write, I try to connect with my subconscious mind as much as possible. The subconscious is the template on which the sum total of your life and it's meaning are written. Tap into that dreamscape and write what you see and hear. At first it may not make sense like an abstract dream you had last night. You struggle to interpret the dream but you don't have to. Just present the dream in music and words and let the listener interpret it just like a therapist would. Don't worry about being understood. Just make the words interesting and somewhat ambiguous. It's the conscious mind that is always asking the wrong questions like "Is this good?" Is this too rock or too pop?" Should I try to impress this demographic or that demographic? Is this radio friendly? Is this commercial enough to be a hit? Suppress all that conscious reasoning because it is the enemy of art.
When you're writing a song, the subconscious is asking: Am I in the zone? Am I loving this? Am I bored or excited? Does this FEEL good? Am I repeating myself or breaking new ground? Am I getting goosebumps? Is the music married to the lyric? These are the questions to ask yourself when writing a song,

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Conversation Suicide

6/19/2011 1:26:35 AM ---- Updated 6/25/2011 11:46:54 AM

thoughtful thread.
love it.

"It is my strong opinion that lyrics & music/art/poetry are some of the ways the gods and muses reach out to humanity; creativity of this kind helps foster peace, love & better communication and understanding of self; as well as generating a vortex that can allow us to connect more solidly with each other." -pHLeGm

so basically, it's NOT just the lyrics; even a song with non-sensical lyrics can still touch you, or have meaning, based on the arrangement, style, players & the performance.

Now back to our regularly scheduled deep thoughts from International IAC Aritsts.
carry on me buckos.

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Steve April

6/19/2011 9:21:02 PM

what wakens the spiritual and emotional side...

kudos...

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Steve Ison

6/24/2011 3:17:21 PM

Mr Bob Elliott..You're a seriously cool guy..You should write about this stuff professionally..You've just managed to eloquently express about something i KNOW in my heart to be true-and how i instinctively respond to music and how lyrics relate to them but've never been able to put into words myself....
I've always felt extremely insecure next to so many singer/songwriters with their strong 'messages' and their 'i know exactly what subjects i'm gonna write about' 'cos in truth i don't have a frikkin' clue till i engage with a piece of music i've written and try to get it to poetically harmonise with the music and try to hone in ntill it seems natural n effortless..
There's no 'message' there..
That is a fundamentally more insecure position than those who are so confident with what they want to 'say' lyrically........but its also more open too

Thanx for the inspiration anyways man :)

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Chandra Moon

6/25/2011 1:41:28 AM

wow what a great thread - I've really enjoyed reading all of the posts!

Personally I'm one of those that almost always gets the lyrics first so of course, for me, they're crucial. I think I've only once or twice got a tune first and then fitted words to it.

All sorts of things inspire - deep and meaningful, political, injustice but equally a sunny day, feeling in love, childhood, time, even a rocking horse!

Sometimes I set myself a task - like the song I wrote called Twice A Year is written through my very young childhood eyes about the fact I only used to see my dad twice a year - so I wrote the song in words of one syllable that a child would use (apart from 2 words - 'alone' and 'never' which I couldn't substitute)!

Other times lyrics come to me in dreams and often on drum beats in my head. After I get the lyrics I desperately try not to judge them as if I do, the judge on my shoulder starts saying it's all crap, or sentimental, or all been said before!!

Anyway - great thread - thanks Tom.

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