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Father Time
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3/19/2016 7:22:25 AM
Is this the best soul song since 1980
I believe it is.
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Psyche's Muse
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3/19/2016 8:40:30 AM
...yep, Boy George was certainly "ahead of her time"! -M-
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Jilly
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3/19/2016 8:51:31 AM
I prefer my Soul sung by a guy without more make-up and frocks than myself. I like it simmering, sincere and all about lurve :)
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Father Time
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3/19/2016 9:04:28 AM
well that is all about love. I have felt that feelings many times when I was in love. when you just can't wait to see her again. When time is all you want and time with her is all you need.
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Jilly
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3/19/2016 9:09:18 AM
I'm going with this, it's more earthly I guess
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Father Time
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3/19/2016 9:13:16 AM
not bad! Except when he does that fake hiccup thing. :)
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Jilly
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3/19/2016 9:18:33 AM
Yeah, that's straight out of the Michael Jackson School of Soul Singing
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Richard Scotti
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3/19/2016 10:36:07 AM
Anything sung by Mavis Staples is real soul (imo)
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Hop On Pop
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3/19/2016 10:59:06 AM
While I hated them both at the time, I have come to terms with both Culture Club and Wham/George Michael as nothing but talented Motown wannabes, with some really great pop-soul tunes. I've come to dig them both. At least in small does.
But as to the best soul song since 1980?
I might change my mind, but this is probably it:
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Hop On Pop
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3/19/2016 11:03:36 AM
Listening to it now and, no. I will not change my mind.
This is definitely it.
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Stoneman
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3/19/2016 2:03:53 PM
All great artists indeed. But I would vote for this song and this guy as he is truly soulful, gifted and has a voice that mirrors the range of the legendary Phillip Bailey.
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Stoneman
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3/19/2016 2:17:01 PM
But then again, there is Mr. Consistent. "Maxwell".
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3/22/2016 8:56:09 AM
You know,
far be it from me to not give props to a guy who can rock the chick look....
that said... I actually like that song, probably more than I'm impressed
by the delivery of it, which isn't bad, I should say it's his voice...
and maybe the arrangement, it's a bit too sugar pops....
like, what my ears pick up out of that song, Time (Clock In My Heart),
it's a deep and really heavy f--ing song, and you just don't get that,
not like you should, from Boy Georgy's version of it.
Like, imagine a slower version, more emphasis on the soul
rather than the pop,
now picture Issac Hayes singing this.
Or Lou Rawls.
Or Sly Stone.
Any cat with a deep soulful voice. Would improve on this, I feel.
I did like Boy Georgy's "In The Church Of The Poisoned Mind"
that was pretty Motown for him. And this ain't bad....
it's just a deeper song than I feel he's gettin' across.
The right version of this particular song would warm hearts, melt brains
and change minds.
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Stoneman
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3/22/2016 10:53:20 AM
I agree with that assessment ALJ. I never really considered Boy George a soul singer. He is a pop singer and there are not a lot of soulful inflections or runs in his singing style. However, I am aware that the definition of Soul music has been changed by a certain segment of the American population. I even hear people saying that country and rock artists are soulful. That terminology use to be reserved for people like Al Green, James Brown, Wilson Pickett, Aretha Franklin, Otis Redding and all the Black Soul groups present and past. There were many other artists who had extremely emotional content in their vocals. Soul music is not Pop. It doesn't even resemble pop. The true soul singers are like the examples I left in previous posts here. The emotional level of their music is highly evident right from the beginning. Soul music is music that was derived from the hardship of slavery. It is an offshoot of Black gospel. It is the kind of music that moves you to tears or causes you to openly rejoice.
The slaves used gospel singing as a way of communicating without the overseer/master being able to understand. They sang songs like "Steal Away" which was a call to run towards freedom. They took the European songs they were forced to sing (all African music and speech was banned by slave owners) and began to bend the notes into a more African projection. Listen to Amazing Grace in a White church and then listen to it in a Black church. Same song but very different projections due to the bending of the notes and the emotional exertions. Some of the key elements of Soul vocalists are guttural effects, lyric improvisation, vocal rhythmization, blue notes, falsetto and metaphors/codes. These are all examples of the Black heterogeneous sound ideal. The melodic and harmonic features are pentatonic and Blue scales, micro tones in ambiguous modes, glissando's, shrieks and slides between notes. The difference is the bending of the notes and the addition of deep emotional content. It is the bending of the notes that caused gospel music to be Africanized into Black gospel and later into Soul music. After the end of slavery the great migration to the North and West by the slaves began. They (former slaves) settled in big cities like New York, Chicago and Los Angeles. It was in those cities that the transition of Black Gospel to Soul began. Even today, all of the top Soul singers come from the Black church. It is the nurturing place for Soul music and artists. It is where the emotional spirit of the genre is founded. Today's soul singers are relegated to audiences in the hood. Most mainstream fans have no idea that they even exist. They have smaller concerts at smaller venues. Where it use to be a genre that was celebrated by all of America, It is now mainly celebrated, promoted and delivered to Black audiences by small Black recording companies and artists. Most of the rest of the nation have no idea of who Raheem Devaughn, Mary J. Blige, Maxwell, Erykah Badu, Raphael Saadiq, Anthony Hamilton, Joss Stone (Blue Eyed Soul), Leela James, Rahsaan Patterson and so many others are. A true soul singer can be detected by the vocal inflections (runs) they make and the emotional content they display. Robin Thick and Justin Timberlake have proven themselves to be true soul singers because you can feel the soul and they have all the correct vocal styling's that true soul singers have. Those guys can go back and forth from Soul to Pop very easily. If you don't see them singing you will definitely think they are Black. Ironically, they both are intimately involved in Black culture and churches. Much in the same way that Tina Marie was during the 70's/80's. They are true soul singers. Boy George doesn't have the power or emotional punch needed to be considered a soul singer. But, he is really a great Pop singer and I have always been a huge fan of his work. Like a lot of artists, he has had such a troubled past. I hope the bad stuff is all behind him now.
ALJ, I am sure that you are aware of the fact that the Beatles were huge fans of Soul music. They came to United States with great anticipation of meeting the Soul artists of America. They even gave one (Billy Preston) a job. The United States has basically abandoned Black music. The advent of Hip-Hop and Rap caused such a negative perception among White Americans that the entire repertoire of Black music has been forced to the underground distribution channels that everyone knows about but few talk about. Soul music appears to be dead to everyone in the nation except the Black population. It is like a secret music that we pass around to each other now. Mainstream radio has abandoned it. Yet it still thrives among the people who crave "Real" soul music and not the Pop wanna be soul music. It's like we are back in the cotton fields singing in code again. When I hear someone say that an artist is soulful, I cringe if that artist does not sing soul music. I cringe because I realize that the definition of soulful music has changed over the years. Now, Black America must find a new terminology for singing with soul. Of course this is just my opinion and some will disagree. But the truth is in the singing. I know soul music immediately when I hear it. I know a true soul singer from the moment he begins singing, wailing and bending the notes.
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3/22/2016 11:40:24 AM
Eloquent and Historically In Depth.
We all can learn a thing or two from you Stone.
The BEATLES,
well I think what you had there was four white boys
from Liverpool who wanted to be four black singers from America.
And to varying degrees at different times, they didn't do too badly, I think.
They did their version of it anyway.
Smokey Robinson seemed damn glad that they covered his song,
"You've Really Got A Hold On Me"....
Their first album (released in Britain before they 'hit it' here)
"Please Please Me" featured John Lennon singing Arthur Alexander's
"Anna"... I think that wasn't at all bad, a qualifier
for Lenny Kravitz's assessment of Lennon "Hellaciously Soulful"....
I agree with your assessment of Soul Music today,
certainly as far as mainstream goes,
like, where IS the Aretha Franklins and Otis Reddings of today?
I guess they're out there, but it's not mainstream as it used to be.
I think there was actually far more of a melting pot effect
to mainstream music, in the years when you and I grew up,
(even aware you got a couple years on me)
that's my impression of it anyway... I was born in 1959,
tail end of the First Wave of Rock N Roll,
growing up in the heat of the Second Wave.
At that time, it was all Great Music,
maybe the grownups still categorized it to death,
this one's white, this one's black...
but to me, it was all just the great songs and record of that time,
that time I remember so well and still have alive in my heart....
It seems to me that today,
it's gotten very separatized, (is that a word? Oh well, you know what I mean
anyway I hope) ....
Hip Hop still seems to be selling. Soul maybe not so much,
which is sad. I did a Hip Hop record myself recently,
or my version of it anyway, I appreciate you adding it to your Station by the way.
Thanks for that, very much.
You oughta do some Soul like it oughta be. I'd love to hear it.
You are crazy talented, in my humble opinion. I think the same of me, sure enough.
It's up to folks like us, the Big Dogs of Tomorrow and We're Already Here Now....
To Make That Stuff So Good, it breaks down all the walls and barriers again.
I think that's the singlemost biggest challenge facing,
basically everybody on Planet Earth now.
All this 'us versus them' shit....
It truly threatens to destroy all human life on the planet.
Then we got the 'us versus the environment'
to worry about, so, like, if we don't kill each other off,
damn sure Mother Nature may pull the plug any damned way.
Another key element, to Soul,
which to my ears was changed forever when Aretha Franklin came along,
(or maybe that was just my first time hearing it...)
was that she reinvented the art of freestyling it...
Far too often, in some so called 'soul records'
in more recent times....
Well in many cases I've found it to be 'overly gymnastic'
past any content of emotion. And if it ain't got that, go home, you bore me.
Basically, it all comes down to this:
We Need To Get Back To The Real. That's Everybody.
To where it almost got to, then it all got split apart,
by people in big high up offices holding gold sledgehammers.
Always keeping the people divided. And making plenty of money doing so.
When you get it right, you, me, anybody,
then it transcends, any faction,
becoming it's own Real Thing, Identifiable To Any and Everyone.
And THAT is what scares the pigf***s in the offices on the 246th floor....
They are there, by keeping us divided, if we manage not to be,
those little piggies go weee weee weee weee all the way home.
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Father Time
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3/22/2016 1:36:15 PM
I've been getting into arguments in various places on the web about whether or not Time is a soul song. I'll spare you all the rancor about it but I feel it's 100% soul. I mean you have the Philadelphia string sound and everything. I also feel the song is perfect as it is. We'll have to agree to disagree on that cause I know I'm right. :D
but yes the real soul songs for me came in the early 70s. Al Green, the Stylistics, Marvin, Aretha. Not much like that comes around these days.
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Stoneman
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3/22/2016 2:32:35 PM
Yes, I agree that the Beatles successful made the transition from their rootage to the soul music. The respect they gave to the genre made them a welcome addition. One of the great things about the Beatles was their ability to transform their sound with the changing of the times. It was an amazing thing to witness and I don;t think any other band was ever able to do that.
I briefly taught American music history at the JC level when I graduated. However, my ailments made it too cumbersome to continue. Now I only do one one vocal coaching. But I always include and healthy dose of historical significance for the songs my students sing. I believe that knowing the where, when and why of a song helps singers to better assume the roll of its character. But I have always been fascinated with American music history all the way from the chain gangs working on the railroad to traveling minstrels. It is a rich history full of many great leaps and bounds by artists from all backgrounds. My favorite era was the Beebop era. That was truly stimulating music that allowed musicians the freedom to express themselves in a deeper way.
Yes, there is a definite separation involved. Much in the same way the nation is separated by race. Hip-hop is a youth driven genre that has many crossover elements. It is still considered cool. It is the Black baby boomers that keep soul in the picture. Although it is way in the background it is still there. I have seen lots of promising young soul artists coming up. I am even teaching a few that I think will make a mark. I agree that it is up to us to show them the way. That is why I do what I do very cheaply. Music studies are almost completely fazed out in K1-12 schools due to budget restraints. So, it falls on us veterans to share what we know and point them in the right direct. I love seeing that light come on in their eyes when they really get what you are teaching them.
My nephew is a phenom. He opened for Smokey Robinson when he 7 years old back in 2009. Now he is touring the Bay area as a solo artist. I mentor him a lot. Trying to keep him from getting the "Big Head". He's good looking and all the little girls scream when he comes on. It is a fun thing to see though.
In regards to the overly gymnastic vocals. The key is song choice. A song that requires a good vocal work out but has a deep meaning that the singer can actually identify with, will come off as sincere and real. A silly song with no depth being sung like it is a great work of art will come off just as silly as the words of the song. I teach my student to assume the role of the song. If they can't assume that role, don't sing that song. I also teach them about the music business. I want them to be prepared if and/or when the pigf**s on the 246th floor come calling.
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Stoneman
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3/22/2016 3:20:51 PM
Father Time,
Yes, the music tracks have many Soul elements (many pop songs do) but the vocals are more pop than soul. He just doesn't have enough of the elements of soul in him to sing that way. He is a great Pop singer though. I love his work. How could you possibly say that song was better than Marvin Gayes "What's Going On", Al Green's "Love And Happiness", Smokey Robinson's "Tracks Of My Tears", James Brown's, "Say It Loud, I'm Black And I'm Proud", Jr. Walkers "Shot Gun" and on and on and on. These were the songs that became American Standards in regards to Soul music. I could create a whole list of Soul Songs that are better than this song from a Soul song perspective. As a Pop song? Yeah, this one ranks very high and I wouldn't argue that point.
Just to be fair, I looked up the charting history of the song and at no time was it ever on the Soul charts. But it was #2 on the Billboard Hot 100 charts and the Pop charts. Which only confirms what I remember about the song. It was not played on the local R&B stations here. It was played on the Top 40 stations. I don't dispute that it is a great song. I just dispute that it is the greatest Soul song. Boy George is not a Soul artist. In my opinion, his voice does not qualify for that. Oh, and there are plenty of great Soul songs out there. You just don't hear them because they are only being played to a select audience. We call it the "Underground". You may not believe this but the music industry corporations control what gets heard on the mainstream circuits. It is all about money and they could care less about the art or the genre. If one thing becomes successful, everything after that sounds like it. I read the music industry trade magazines and the one common theme is we are looking for songs that sound like ****. That usually is the flavor of the month.
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Father Time
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3/22/2016 3:27:34 PM
Well you can't base it on what makes the charts. Bennie and the Jets and Susudio made the R&B charts. Also I was saying since 1980, most of those songs you mentioned came prior. Al Green alone had 6 or so soul songs better than Time. Anyway in my opinion Boy George had a number of soul songs, like this one too.
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Stoneman
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3/22/2016 4:53:46 PM
Yeah, that is a nice R&B song. Unfortunately, I never heard it before now. But it is soulful. Sorry, I forgot about the date parameters during my fervor to make my point. Even still, out of all the Soul songs recorded since 1980? Time is probably not even in the top 50 for me. But that is the thing about choosing the best in anything. It is all about opinion and personal likes. I hate the charting system because it forces someone to choose where a song goes and how high up it is. Once again opinion comes into play but for the most part I think they are kind of accurate. However, other than our own opinion, it is one way that songs are categorized. I think Bennie and The Jets and Susudio were better songs than Time but neither of them would qualify as best R&B song since 1980. There have been a myriad of songs like them that crossed over and the same goes vice verse. But that's just my opinion. Doesn't mean I am right. Just means I am right to me. When it comes to Soul and R&B I want to hear the raw emotion of struggle, pain or immense joy in the vocals. I want to hear Soul runs. Not something I can explain but I know it when I hear it because that is the first music I listened to and performed. Mr. George has a very special tone and he does a descent job on R&B slanted music. But he is no Maxwell, D'angelo or Eric Be'net. Those guys have triple the range and way more soulful qualities in their voices. Each one of them has at one time or another given me chills when I listened to them. Never got that from Mr. George. Did you listen all the way to the end on the Eric song I posted? Man, that is pure raw emotion pouring out like sweat in the cotton fields. Doesn't mean they are better singers. It just means they are better Soul singers in my opinion. So yeah, let us agree to disagree on this one. I can see how this could become an argument for those who are Soul music purists. Just as there are a lot of people that say Michael Jackson was not a Pop artist and that Elvis was not the King of Rock & Roll. It all comes down to personal preference and opinion. I respect yours even though I disagree. We all like what we like and there is no need for us to explain why.
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Larree
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3/22/2016 5:19:46 PM
Stoneman, you said " The United States has basically abandoned Black music."
Truth! Here is a very interesting interview you may dig.
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Father Time
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3/22/2016 5:21:10 PM
---- Updated 3/22/2016 5:21:50 PM
I agree with that, Stoneman! I always hated Susudio myself. but am a huge fan of soul music, even came up with a list of my 50 favorite soul songs of all time awhile back.
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Stoneman
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3/22/2016 5:47:30 PM
Now there's a thread waiting to happen. 50 favorite soul songs of all time. Talk about causing some arguments! :)
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Father Time
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3/22/2016 5:49:42 PM
I'm already in enough arguments though. :)
For starters my top 50 has no James Brown in it.
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Stoneman
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3/22/2016 6:32:36 PM
Hahahahahah yep, there's an argument waiting to happen! You do know that James Brown use to be called the King Of Soul right? hehehe, I'm guessing that you missed that coronation. :)
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Larree
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3/22/2016 7:36:22 PM
I saw James Brown live. His whole catalogue could be the top 50.
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Stoneman
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3/22/2016 10:36:11 PM
I agree Larree! Hit after hit after hit. On top of that, he is also considered to be the Godfather of Funk. There would be no funk if not for James. 44 Gold Records; Grammy Awards, 1965, 1986; Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, charter member, 1986; Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award, 1992; Rhythm & Blues Foundation Pioneer Awards, Lifetime Achievement Award, 1993. The man had hit record written all over him.
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Larree
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3/23/2016 12:54:48 AM
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Father Time
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3/23/2016 2:21:15 AM
I was just never a big fan of his. I like soul songs for slow dancing. :)
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Stoneman
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3/24/2016 10:50:44 AM
Here's a little ditty that James did for the slow dancers. This song has been redone by countless artists and is a favorite for auditions because it allows the vocalist to deeply express themselves soulfully. But no one ever did it the way James did. I saw him sing this song in L.A. way back in the day and I am telling you, there wasn't a dry eye in the house when finished.
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Father Time
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3/24/2016 1:50:55 PM
Jilly did a spoof of that one.
http://indiemusicpeople.com/songs.aspx?SongID=70596&ArtistID=58724
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