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the perfect banana
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11/19/2008 9:09:12 PM
Neil Young blogs about electric cars in the Huffington Post.
here
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Nigels
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11/21/2008 12:55:26 AM
---- Updated 11/21/2008 12:56:04 AM
Personally I think the government should subsidize non polluting cars. People should get paid a small amount per kilometer to help them with the higher maintenance(battery) and start up costs. The return for the government would be in cleaner air in the cities and flow on savings in health and productivity. I think this would be a better way to drive change to non polluting vehicles than direct subsidies to car makers.
Unfortunately here in Aus we are about to lose our
Solar industry.
Also as a small country it seems we are the 4th worst air polluter in the world. Hopefully when you guys get your big EV's happening we can buy some of them to use down here.
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RedRobin
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11/21/2008 5:14:04 AM
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Steve Ison
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11/22/2008 7:52:50 AM
Great to see you've moved up to a 4 wheeler Red Robin!
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Magnetfisch
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11/22/2008 8:54:31 AM
good thing that Neil Young is blogin' 'bout that!
electric cars and electricity derived from solar energy or other renewable sources are the future, if we want to avoid a climate & energy crisis (we won't discuss this issue here, won't we? For scientific details & blogs go to: http://www.realclimate.org/ or http://www.ipcc.ch/ipccreports/ar4-wg1.htm)
Nice to see that Peter Garrett (Midnight Oil singer) is now Australias environment minister! Btw I don't think that Australias Solar Energy plants are in danger, under pressure, yes, but this could trigger a healthy move foreward due to a environmentally-friendly competition between nations.
Rock'n roll 8-)
Magnetfisch
PS: Our minister for Environment, Transport, Energy, and Communications, Federal councillor Moritz Leuenberger, has his blog, too: http://moritzleuenberger.blueblog.ch/ (in German only), a personal way to discuss about national (scorchers and deadly car crashes) and international problems (energy)
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RedRobin
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11/22/2008 12:10:02 PM
"Great to see you've moved up to a 4 wheeler Red Robin!"
....Yep, I used to race bicycles as an amateur Time Triallist but now prefer 4 wheels. Motorsport is something I grew up with - Petrol is in my veins. It'll be interesting to see what finally replaces it.
Electric cars are overrated - People need to consider everything that goes into battery production and their disposal. I don't know what the best solution for fuel will be but it'll take time to develop such that it's widespread and practical. Using corn etc is ridiculous as it diminishes valuable food resources.
On the subject of car 'pollution', it's pointless judging a vehicle's carbon footprint based on exhaust emissions. The real carbon footprint needs to be calculated according to what's called Dust-to-Dust, which is literally taking into account the carbon use from dust (nothing) through all its manufacturing processes plus a typical 100,000 miles of usage and then all the processes involved in the vehicle's disposal back to dust.
Toyota having suckered everyone into thinking that their hybrid called the Prious (usually owned and and driven by the pious) is environmentally friendly but it's somewhere way down in the 80's on the Dust-to-Dust list. No.1, being the most eco-friendly, is the Jeep Wrangler!
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RedRobin
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11/22/2008 12:16:36 PM
....
Magnetfisch - I love driving in Germany, especially on those unrestricted parts of the autobahns but most of the roads are excellent and drivers are generally better behaved than in the UK.
Generally, the German people seem to love their cars - They certainly build the best!
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Andy Broad
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11/22/2008 4:30:08 PM
Red Robin your dust to dust point is quite valid, discarding model a for model b which is a just afew percent more efficeient is often a mistake. Better to make designs that last ...
The emphasis on carbon footprints is one of the aspects of "climate change" that really frustrates me, cars put many more poisons than just carbon dioxide (which is some ways isn't even a poison). I agree that electric cars are abit of as wet blanket at the moment, the tecnology is only good for short haul comuteing etc, and you can't recharge a battery at a single hit like refilling a petrol tank, but at least they produce near zero emissions "in the street" so we don't get poisoned by exhaust fumes.
Too jmuch emphasis on carbon generally IMHO, by the time we've solved global warming we'll all be posisoned to death by everything else....
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Nigels
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11/23/2008 12:18:08 AM
"it's pointless judging a vehicle's carbon footprint based on exhaust emissions."
the way I see it it would take the approx the same factory emissions to produce an electric car as compared to a benzene powered car. Then based on zero emissions for running an electric car assuming its charged by renewable energy like wind or solar then you have to be ahead with electric cars in terms of emissions.
when I ride around on my pushbike in the city I am sickened by the noxious exhaust fumes from primitive benzene powered motor vehicles.
come to think of it you could even charge them up with an exercise bike hooked up to a dynamo.
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RedRobin
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11/23/2008 4:25:41 AM
....
That's my point, Nigels - It's not just about exhaust emissions. Emissions is just a convenient way for a government to tax the motorist in a vain effort to discourage.
You have conveniently missed out (or forgotten) what's involved in battery production and battery disposal for electric cars.
The car manufacturers are doing what they can (in practical real-world terms) to improve and develop alternatives but it takes years! There's big money in patents etc.
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Eric Steffensen
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11/23/2008 10:34:03 AM
---- Updated 11/23/2008 10:36:02 AM
Red Robin:
In just a quick search of the dust to dust analysis, I found the following at
http://www.pacinst.org/topics/integrity_of_science/case_studies/hummer_versus_prius.html
"The CNW Marketing Research, Inc.’s 2007 “Dust to Dust: The Energy Cost of New Vehicles From Concept to Disposal” caught the interest of the media and the public with its claim that a Hummer H3 SUV has a lower life-cycle energy cost than a Toyota Prius hybrid. Closer inspection suggests that the report’s conclusions rely on faulty methods of analysis, untenable assumptions, selective use and presentation of data, and a complete lack of peer review. Even the most cursory look reveals serious biases and flaws: the average Hummer H1 is assumed to travel 379,000 miles and last for 35 years, while the average Prius is assumed to last only 109,000 miles over less than 12 years. These selective and unsupported assumptions distort the final results. A quick re-analysis with peer-reviewed data leads to completely opposite conclusions: the life-cycle energy requirements of hybrids and smaller cars are far lower than Hummers and other large SUVs. CNW should either release its full report, including methods, assumptions, and data, or the public should ignore its conclusions. Unfortunately, “Dust to Dust” has already distorted the public debate."
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Steve Ison
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11/23/2008 10:42:14 AM
"Great to see you've moved up to a 4 wheeler Red Robin!"
....Yep, I used to race bicycles as an amateur Time Triallist but now prefer 4 wheels.."
It was your 30 + years as a 3 WHEEL driver i was referring to..
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Nigels
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11/23/2008 1:52:19 PM
Hi Red Robin
Firstly I would just like to say that I would hate to see this thread degenerate into the sort of dialogue found on the politics threads,
I apologize for my last post where I selectively quoted from your post.
As someone who has spent years in physics laboratories I agree battery technology has a long way to go and it is the flaw in the electric model for any technology.
There are all sorts of wonderful ways to generate electricity but few and very inefficient ways to store it. I think the breakthru will be in capacitor design.
Having said all that it just seem plain old fashioned sense that electric vehicles will have less emissions than using a toxic substance like benzene. Its possible to engineer production facilities to get close to zero toxic emissions. I am not surprised over tarkoids post.
Air quality in the cities is a huge issue as any asthma sufferer or carer will let you know.
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Eric Steffensen
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11/24/2008 1:27:59 PM
Just to clarify my post above, I'm not sure if the link I found was using good science or bad science...my point was more that, especially when you find "facts" on the internet, it's probably wise to get a second opinion from a reputable source before you use them to justify an argument.
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RedRobin
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11/24/2008 3:14:43 PM
Re the Dust-to-Dust, I'm still inclined to take notice of it and believe that it presents a far more realistic principle by which to evaluate the eco-friendliness of individual car models.
But I'm very biassed - I much prefer driving a Porsche to a Pious. Modern cars are far more eco-friendly and are continuing to become even more so. It's not just about exhaust emissions imo.
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11/24/2008 3:50:07 PM
Can't wait
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Eric Steffensen
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11/24/2008 4:55:23 PM
Hey Red Robin, have you ever heard of a Japanese electric car called the Ellica? Last I heard it was still a prototype, but its a 100% electric car that's faster than a Porsche:
http://www.gearlive.com/index.php/news/article/ellica-8-wheeled-electric-car-03060939/
I'd be hesitant to cast a verdict on electric cars based on the Prius. If automakers can get in a position to innovate again, people will be buying electric cars because they're fun to drive, not just because of the carbon footprint.
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Larz Boah
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11/24/2008 11:22:01 PM
i see a guy ridin around in a yellow electric contraption
and I don't even know how he squeezes in like Mr Bean
prolly...it looks kinda like U... P Banana..and if he ever
gets inna wreck in that thang, they'll be scoopin him
off the pavement like a banana peel! heh
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RedRobin
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11/25/2008 3:12:37 AM
---- Updated 11/25/2008 4:31:15 AM
Hey tarotkid,
"Sticky Vicky" (Victoria Butler-Henderson) drove an all electric car at Goodwood Speed Fest this year and it was very fast but she didn't like it because it didn't make any sound and you can't tell how fast you are going.
The exhaust music of a performance engine is a huge factor in loving a car - Cars should be very tactile if you enjoy driving.
The future looks very interesting.
Here's a sensibly driven Lambo and friend in a Porsche - Great soundtrack, especially towards the end : -
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Liquid Vision
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11/26/2008 1:32:41 AM
get 'em rollin'......................................................................
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