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Hop On Pop
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3/25/2008 11:49:47 AM
One of my best-ever songs... is incomplete. What would you do?
Heya.
You see, I have a problem:
I have this song that is COMPLETLY WRITTEN. It has all the chord changes, the vocal melody; the entire structure is DONE. And it's one of the best things that I've ever written.
There's just one problem: I have lyrics, but they're sub-par.
They kinda suck. Some people think that they're okay, but for me they just don't ring true.
I desperately want to re-write them, problem is they've become so ingrained in the song, and into the melody, that it's really hard for me to get past what's already down on paper.
The way I see it I have a few choices, if I can't get past the current lyrical state:
1. Sing/record the song the way that it is now, sub-par lyrics and all
2. Michael Stipe it --- mumble the lyrics so that nobody can understand what I'm singing anyway, and change it around every time
3. Trash it
What would y'all do?
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the kozy king
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3/25/2008 11:57:02 AM
Don't get impatient. I've let songs linger for months, even years because I didn't like one line or phrase. When the answer comes by itself, it's usually very simple, obvious and inspiring. You're not under a recording contract, are you :-)
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Steve Ison
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3/25/2008 12:30:15 PM
Yeh,like Terry said Todd...
I'd wait around and let lyrics you find more satisfying come along..
Work on it slowly till you love it-or you feel you've done the best you possibly can with it..
The fact you're saying that about the lyrics means you wouldn't be really happy with it if you released it as is..
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srm
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3/25/2008 12:45:48 PM
I have to agree with Terry and Steve. If you go ahead with what you've got, it'll always bother you. Put it aside. Maybe even work on something else, to 'clear the palette'. The fact that you've got the framework for the lyrics set, will help the right words come.
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Hop On Pop
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3/25/2008 12:50:07 PM
It's been more than a year now and it's really starting to bother me.
In fact, this song is one of the reasons that the old Hop On Pop lineup is not playing together anymore:
I feel that it's complete enough that we could have rehearsed it; they insisted on having a complete lyric. But the music is done. A couple of spirited conversations about that one.
And yeah, it took me a couple of years to complete the lyrics to "Ashes On the Water" and "Miles From Monday" so this is not unprescedented. I'm just an impatient sonnuffabitch.
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Steve April
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3/25/2008 1:01:10 PM
wise words from steve, terri, and srm...
may wanna go for a walk with your melody, in a park or somewhere where you're in a comfort zone, stuff comes to you when you're in the zone, with the birds & spring & all...or a grove of trees, under a night sky...
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Stegor
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3/25/2008 1:51:57 PM
Personally I can't judge my songs, lyrically or musically until I have something recorded. Sometimes I have lyrics that I think suck, but once they're in context with the music I realize... they don't suck! That also happens with my co-writer, Mark - he writes lyrics sometimes that make me cringe and I want to re-write them but I don't want to hurt his feelings. Then we get them recorded and... they don't suck! And sometimes all you have to do is change one word.
"Breathe. Breathe in the air. Don't be afraid to care. Leave. But don't leave me."
These are of course some of Roger Waters' lyrics to "Breathe" from Dark Side of the Moon. He said he hated them until he got them into context. He almost threw them out. Bland, pedestrian words. His advice is to never underestimate the power of a simple phrase.
So, my advice Todd is similar to Larree's - Just do it!
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the kozy king
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3/25/2008 3:47:39 PM
Yeah, if it's been a year -- well -- that's very patient.
Maybe just do it and see what happens as Larree sez.
You can always replace it, if the first version sparks something that's better. I've changed songs, hated the new version even more, then settled on a third.
You gotta post it now -- we wanna hear. Of course experience tells me that everyone will love it (sometimes this site is just too damn positive, ain't it :-)
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Steve April
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3/25/2008 5:58:36 PM
Oops Larree, simultaneous post. What Larree says, like gettin' a second wind with a song...
Or gaze on a glass of water before you go to bed...(tho i haven't done that in many years, i must confess lol, rust never sleeps...)
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JOHN FRY
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3/25/2008 8:40:46 PM
" but for me they just don't ring true."
That's how I would start the process of rewriting it, What doesn't ring true?
Delve into that, and you'll find your lyrics.
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Duane Flock
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3/25/2008 9:50:34 PM
Raymond Porter told me once that he just re-submits a newer version of a tune into the download section of a song page without losing it's current status position. He did that twice changing a colab project of mine and his. You can change your tune anytime you like!
Hey, we are all good musicians here, but better yet, musicians that'll help. I'm sure you wouldn't ask if you didn't value our opinion. That's cool!
Put the song up. The honesty here will be in good spirit, and we wouldn't let you send out anything less than a number one hit.
D
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Hop On Pop
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3/26/2008 4:50:06 AM
Lots of good advice. Thanks.
And, I would put the song up if I had it recorded -- or even had the means with which to record a decent version of the thing.
It'll just have to sit and ferment (fester?) a little longer before I can commit it to tape.
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Hugh Hamilton
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3/26/2008 6:29:22 AM
Man, I've got a pile of unfinished bits. I recently demo'd an old unfinished one - "With You" - it's a beachy/island thang, and when I got to dabbling in slide it occurred to me that instrumentation would suit the song...in my opinion the lyrics are minimal and incomplete (lol) but I demo'd it anyway just to see what people said. So far nobody called me on it...I suppose many of us (and I know you are this way, Todd) are our OWN WORST CRITICS...
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JOHN FRY
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3/26/2008 1:02:01 PM
Speaking of unfinished bits. As you well know Hugh. That bridge in A Day in a Life. the part that Paul sings, was an unfinished bit of his own that they stuck in there.
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Hop On Pop
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7/28/2008 4:56:40 AM
---- Updated 7/28/2008 5:09:46 AM
Well, I demoed the song... complete with no lyrics.
I just kinda Michael Stipe-d the thing: made some up as I went along and mumbled the rest.
So, here it is:
"12 Ghosts"
I also posted about it in the thread about "Hey", but then I remembered about this thread. Hope you don't mind, as it's more relevant.
I think that doing this will actually help me write some lyrics, and will certainly help me along to getting it done with a full-band. Curious to know what y'all think.
Please also know, that I did record this AS A VERY ROUGH DEMO, so the arrangement is by no means complete; there will be electric guitar, bass, and drums (and maybe keys) on the final version. So... here is the skeleton.
Thanks!
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qelizabeth
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7/28/2008 6:54:33 AM
I probably shouldn't be admitting this, but lyrics are the last thing I listen to in a song. Unless the lyrics are distractingly bad, or mindblowingly good, vocals are more of a musical instrument to me and the words are sounds.
I love the song.
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Richard Scotti
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7/28/2008 7:38:05 AM
Send me the lyrics asap. I'll give you my best advice.
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Hop On Pop
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7/28/2008 7:42:28 AM
There are none; just the first line:
"There goes my disappointment; the fly in the ointment has flown...
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Richard Scotti
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7/28/2008 8:08:26 AM
Did you improv most of the words without writing them down? The enemy of writing is the blank page. You need a framework that is written down. As most Beatle fans know, the title of Paul's song: "Yesterday" started out as "Scramble eggs". I believe in Scramble Eggs! "Dummy lyrics" are essential as place holders so you can see a foundation to build on. Transcribe those words you sang from the recording. Then replace them with better words when you feel more inspired to do so. Then "Dummy" becomes "Yummy"
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Hop On Pop
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7/28/2008 8:11:18 AM
Good advice!
Thanks, Richard. I will do just that. Hopefully something will come out of it that I can connect with.
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Richard Scotti
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7/28/2008 8:20:40 AM
Trashing a great song is NEVER an option when you get stuck. Why throw out the baby with the bath water?
Keep us updated on your progress. The music, espeically the chorus is excellent.
Reminds me of the "Who" unplugged.
Also, don't pre-judge words that you make up on the spot. They may be better than you think. Of the few words I could hear, I think there were some salvagable lines.
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the kozy king
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7/28/2008 9:07:25 AM
I had 12 Ghosts on my newest station "Five Senses Overtime" (Yes, it's a blatant knock-off of Loren's "Five Gems" -- to keep myself on top of all the new releases)
The 12 Ghosts accompaniment was minimal as you said, but I thought the lyrics were fantastic!
You gotta get that one into the studio, Todd.
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