10/19/2015 11:09:05 AM
What makes a good collaboration?

10/19/2015 11:09:05 AM

What makes a good collaboration?
I think the best ones are between a musician and a lyricist where each does what they do best.

I don't care how much people profess to be team players, a good musician will always be a 'one man band' or want to be in control of anything that affects their personal vision.

10/19/2015 11:43:43 AM

Doesn't matter who does what, as long as the artists involved complement each other and make the end result stronger for their collaboration.
Could be a full-band thing, where a songwriter brings a skeleton of a song to the band, and they build upon it together. (I've been a part of one of those and it was fun and productive.)
Or, it could be a couple of songwriters sitting down to write together. (The relationships that I have been a part of like that have been a lot more difficult and less fruitful.)
Totally depends upon the personalities involved.

10/19/2015 12:02:20 PM

Thank you Todd, some interesting points there, I suppose it does depend on the personalities but I just find songwriters as a rule can't resist the urge to do it all themselves

10/19/2015 12:06:19 PM

I think that is absolutely correct, in most instances. But then, there are many partnerships—many of the very best writers—who have created some of the best songs of all-time (or at least of the 20th century) with songwriting partners:
Holland-Dozier-Holland
Goffin-King
Penn-Oldham
Lennon-McCartney (although, this one, it has been argued is pretty much in name only)
Berry-Buck-Mills-Stipe
Morrissey-Marr

10/19/2015 12:07:33 PM

Welcome nadir, glad you came onboard sorry had to be subjected to all that noise from Wrecker. this is really a great place, sometimes we have people who lack a eal sense of self worth or value themselves, so they come here and create something bad, they have no capabilities to offer uplifting statements, I dont usually engage them, best to ignore the people.

10/19/2015 12:21:05 PM

Lennon and MacCartney are probably a good example of clashing egos whereas Carole King was dependent on a lyric writer to get inspired. Elton John and Bernie Taupin complimented each other well. I think the Abba guys worked very democratically even though they both were successful song producers before they collaborated.

10/19/2015 12:26:18 PM

I don't think the Wrecker character was a real troll, just someone who wanted to banter and play, see who took the bait, but he came to the wrong place. I find people very protective at IMP. I think Bluto handled it well. and Scott is a really nice guy for not being drawn too.

10/19/2015 1:02:57 PM

re: the subject, I've always considered any collab that leads to a good song to be alright by me. That said, I have a partner who believes in order for it to be a real collab, the song must be brought into existence every step in the way by both contributors.

10/19/2015 1:08:21 PM

Elton John and Bernie Taupin had a great run and they never wrote together in the same room. That always amazed me.

10/19/2015 3:04:31 PM ---- Updated 10/19/2015 3:44:36 PM

Nice topic, Nadir. :) I relate entirely to your first sentence. And with Hop on Pop's first sentence as well.

I write lyrics (and sometimes the melody), and work at the moment with three main composers/vocalists. Your question got me thinking, and I realised that the modus operandi in each of these 'partnerships' varies a little, though in each of them it's based on a strong mutual respect for each other's abilities, along with a genuine desire to create a song that we both feel good about.

Our collaborations are entirely online. With Billy (in England), I send him the finished lyric (which I revise and polish to make it as singable-off-the-page as possible), and let him loose with it. He invariably 'gets' what I'm going for, and creates wonderful melodies and music that - strangely enough - exactly capture the intended mood and vibe. Sometimes too he'll take it in a completely different direction, but that always seems to work as well. (And it's good for me to expand my musical horizons. ;) )

Mostly the MO is that I send the lyric, all is quiet for a week or two, maybe three, and he sends me back the almost-ready demo. Only occasionally have I asked him to adjust the phrasing in a particular line, or to correct the pronunciation of a word. He never suggests I change anything. He works with a lyric exactly as it comes to him, even though I always tell him to let me know if he'd like me to alter anything. Once or twice he's asked me to write an extra verse, or to add a line or two to a chorus, but that's the extent of any lyrical suggestions he makes. Once I've said 'yes, the track sounds great', he makes whatever last-minute musical tweaks he thinks are necessary, then sends me the completed track, along with an enhanced instrumental version.

With Al (in Scotland), I send him the finished lyric, and he sends me a scratch demo of the direction he's going on, so that I can let him know what I think. We then 'meet up' on Skype two or three times and thrash things out. I make suggestions regarding the melody, and he'll sometimes ask me to re-work a line or two. I welcome his suggestions, and invariably make the changes he recommends. The song generally goes through a couple of reincarnations before it's completed. Sometimes in the course of the thrashing out we have an epiphany, and realise the song should go in a completely different direction. It's cool when that happens. ;)

With Mike (in the US), he's one of the handful of people who give valuable critiques on the lyric before I send it to him in its final, revised form. We exchange an email or two about a possible direction for the music, and I leave him to his own devices. After a few days, he sends me a scratch demo. If I feel certain adjustments would benefit a line or two of melody, he always takes those suggestions on board. A couple of days later, we have a finished product that we're both happy with.

I reckon I've been so lucky with my collaborators. They're great guys. We work as a team, and ego definitely doesn't get in the way. We each know where our skills lie, and respect each other's role, while at the same time we have the freedom to make suggestions that we know would benefit the song as a whole.

Jeez, I sure do ramble. ;)

10/19/2015 3:20:05 PM

Good to have you ramble Donna. great reading

10/19/2015 3:36:57 PM

So, i smell fish.

..just sayin

10/19/2015 4:23:49 PM

I smell fish, too. But then, when you smell fish too often, you smell fish.

10/19/2015 4:55:37 PM

Donna ~ Have you ever written a lyric to a finished music demo? (ala Elton and Bernie)

10/19/2015 6:07:26 PM

Donna - what a luxurious situation!

10/20/2015 2:40:08 AM ---- Updated 10/20/2015 3:32:47 AM

SCS, yes, I'm lucky. :)

Scotti, yes, early on I wrote lyrics to finished music, though it was more difficult.

If the music had a strong melody line, it was a big help to have sheet music for the melody. Made it easier to follow and to establish how the lyric needed to be metered. I'd hum along to the notes.

In the absence of sheet music, I'd listen to the track repeatedly, jotting down each line in the form of beats (e.g. a line like 'she was a black-eyed stranger from hell' would look like 'xxxXxXxxX' in terms of where the beats were falling, and which words/beats were being emphasised). The process was mostly tedious, time-consuming, and frustrating, not to mention constraining in terms of a lyrical story. I eventually stopped.

But if the composer could simply tell me the exact number of beats each line should have, that made it easier for me.

In another scenario - where the demo was a backing track with no melody - it was easier. A lyrical story might emerge on the basis of my emotional response to the music (i.e. images/plotlines would spring up in my mind), and the composer or vocalist would create the melody once the lyric was in.
All I needed to know was at which points in the track I'd need verses, pre-chorus, chorus, bridge, etc.

I imagine each lyricist has his/her own way of writing to music or to a completed demo. Same as some musicians find it harder than others to write music to somebody else's lyrics. There are endless MO combinations.

For the last few years, I've sent lyrics to my collaborators, though now and then I've written something for a track of theirs.

(Re Elton and Bertie: I've sometimes wondered whether the melody came/comes after the lyrics or vice-versa. Does anyone know? If after the melody, then Bernie really IS an absolute genius! ;))

10/20/2015 6:29:12 AM

Bernie's lyrics generally come first, he hands Elton a pile of them.

10/20/2015 6:46:36 AM

Ah yes, I thought that would be the case, FT.

10/20/2015 6:59:46 AM

I'm glad I got good feedback here, my own experiences haven't been so good. Earlier this year I got together with some good friends I met at an online jamming site. The format there was to simply add another track to something you liked and another musician would build on it and so on, but no-one added lyrics and vocals and the songs were short and unoriginal. It was just fun so we decided to break away with our own internet band. It took 3 months to agree on a subject and title let alone who would be the chief writer. The thing is we all wanted our own lyrics. I like emotional ballads and sad lyrics, KC is more into Street stuff, Andy writes Road songs and Griff is just weird. I guess I stepped up as organizer but now the others have lost the appetite for the whole idea and the band is folding before it even began.

Thanks to Donna in particular.

10/20/2015 10:50:13 AM

"Founder of a nameless internet collaboration band formed April 2015 and probably disbanded October 2015" - from Nadir's personal page here.

How about posting a song or two either from this collaboration or from your regular material. Or pointing me to somewhere else online it is.

10/20/2015 11:20:05 AM

OK if you're interested, thanks. Nothing from the latest collab but I'll dig out some jam stuff for ya s.a.p

10/20/2015 12:26:50 PM

Nadir stated "I don't care how much people profess to be team players, a good musician will always be a 'one man band' or want to be in control of anything that affects their personal vision."

I have to disagree in this regard Nadir, I have found working with other lyricist and musicians in collabs from my personal perspective have had a better experience. when i have an idea(s) I give the project over and let people run with it, and of course it is something where each has to give and take. but for the most part, the people I have done collabs with actually have improved my vision or idea of a song. i tend to come up with creative ideas, and some have taken and literally done sweeping changes of songs I developed. Then I go back and add adust adapt to what they have done, not always, but sometimes. I can name a number of real fine lyricist and musicians here, but have more pumpkin soup base getting done up, have to run

good luck

bryon

10/21/2015 9:51:53 AM

Nadir, perhaps you could join a musicians collaboration site, posting your own lyric and a basic track, and ask others to join in (e.g. with bass, drums, vocals, mix, or whatever). That way, you'd be entirely in charge.

10/21/2015 11:50:50 AM

Well we all met on a collab site like that, I just play bass and keys. The music we made didn't lend itself to having vocals really (I put a short jam up today, all I could find and not that good)

I want to get this thing going with my friends but I think it will take longer than I thought but as it's just a hobby it doesn't really matter

Thanks

10/21/2015 12:08:35 PM

I quite like the funky vibe on that jam out, dig it if you laid down vocals. I added up to my Garage station....if you have a chance Nadir, work some lyrics and lay down some vox. i think this has potential ,love the energy and driving groove
bryon

10/21/2015 12:13:02 PM

I know someone with that same drum machine.

10/21/2015 12:31:37 PM

is that you who does that Fred, i dont have a real drummer to work with and i suck trying to drum, been told so, so i do rely on programs from that and other hepers. i have an old Yamaha RX 11 ancient and a monolithic rhodes MK 80 digital piano with samples in it, sounds pretty real

10/21/2015 1:02:09 PM

I have drum machines and electric drums.

I'm definitely fucking with Nadir because I think he ain't who he says he is.

10/21/2015 1:18:57 PM

We have Roland vdrums - they are wicked cool and a hoot to play. Plug in the iPod, put it on random, and it's instant drum karaoke. My youngest daughter and I jam together with them all the time. They are set up right next to the real drums and are played waaay more. They are also great for quick songwriting sessions - super easy to record and mix with instant perfect drum mix.

But I digress, 'Nadir' is having a grand old time jerking our legs, aren't you, Nadir? Haha.

10/21/2015 1:33:00 PM ---- Updated 10/21/2015 1:37:16 PM

Remember back when those John Bonham outtakes/rehearsals whatever, were posted online? I think this is one of those, with the guys laying down their own bass, guitar etc. with different music.

So we have John Bonham of Led Zeppelin on drums,, and whoever these guys are.

Cute.

It sounds to me like these drum tracks are for the song "When the Levee Breaks". The instrumentals are not of course.

10/21/2015 2:01:14 PM

Cough cough bullshit cough

10/21/2015 2:07:15 PM

In my experience a good collaboration starts with good musical chemistry. I have collaborated with people all over the world and the chemistry seems to be the defining issue for me. Then, there is an extrememely important issue called artistic level. Do your skills match up with your collaborators skills? If not, you are headed towards disaster. You might as well do the whole thing yourself. But when I am matched up with artists that are at my level of musicianship and creative processing, I get so excited about the project and the results are usually stellar.

In the old days I travelled many miles to collaborate with folks. But these days I collaborate at home in my studio with having to be face to face with most of my collaborators. If we have compatible recording software we send tracking files back and forth until the poject is comeplete. If their recording software is incompatible with mine (which is rare as I have almost every software used by most artists in my studio) we send wave files back and forth via entities like drop box. I love the digital era. It saves me lots of travel time and money. I have collaborated with folks in the U.K. Germany, France, Italy, Nigeria, Jamaica, Brazil, Canada and several other long distance places here in the USA without ever seeing them face to face. What an awesome time it is for collaboration projects.

One thing I always do is have a 50/50 written agreement in place before I do any work with anyone. I learned the hard way that people always change when the prospect of money comes into the picture. No written agreement? No collaborating. That is my binding non-negotiable rule. Also, I like to set up a production time table because I can't be bogged down with a project that seems to last forever. I also like to decide who is going to do what before I start to work.

I do many kinds of collaborations. Sometimes I produce all the music and let my collaborator write and produce the lyrics/vocals. Other times some else writes and produces the music and I write and produce the lyrics and vocals. Then there are some songwriting that cannot for the life of themselves write bridges. So I write and produce the bridge for them at a reduced percentage of the take. One thing I seldom do is write music to other folks lyrics. I understand the role of the lyricist and I respect that but it is just not something that I am good at so I don't do it. Quite often lyricist write beautiful poems with awesome themes but is it written in a way that can easily be transformed into a musical setting. Quite often the lyricist does not correctly perceive what that means. Music is math and the sylables must be able to fit into song form and time signatures. Just because someone writes a beautiful poem, doesn't mean it can be turned into a song that makes musical sense.

But I can usually tell if my talents mtach up with someone elses right away. I can just feel it in the work that they do. I have had som collaborators that I wrote over 50 songs with. Most of them are dead now but it was quite a thrill towork with someone that truly got me. Not all musicians get me just like I don't get all other musicians. It either gels well or turns to pure hell. Nothing worse than working with someone that you don't gel with.

Anyway, Yeah I know, another long winded post from the old fart. But hopefully it helps someone else who is thinking of collaborating. Two years ago I set aside 3 months of my production schedule just for collaborating. It was a wild and wonderful three months that produced the kind of results I would never get on my own. Unfortunately, my favorite collaborator is myself. I love to do everything myself. I am stuck on stupid that way. I want it to come out the way I hear it so I do it all myself.

Any who, Happy Collaborating and don't forget about the written agreement or you will find yourself in a world of legal drama.

Much Respect,
Stoneman

10/21/2015 2:07:48 PM

Fred, need some Lozenges? or cup of lemon tea

10/21/2015 2:17:12 PM

It's Bonham on drums.

10/21/2015 2:36:49 PM

..and I'm Kurt Cobain.
:)

10/21/2015 2:44:22 PM ---- Updated 10/21/2015 3:11:27 PM

I realize you're joking at my expense, I told you it wasn't that good, it wasn't even finished and no, that's my friends Griff Evans and Andy McCann on real drums, I never met these guys but they put plenty of tracks down on the site. Sorry I bothered to do this thing after being asked, I didn't realize I was being set up. I'm glad you got a laugh .
Thanks to the genuine responders of course.

And thanks for the station adds but I took the jam off after the comments above, sorry.

and ps, I changed my name by 1 letter but I certainly didn't change sex D)

10/21/2015 3:15:09 PM

Let's try not to disrespect new artists, peeps. Remember, they come here often with various levels of shyness and sheepishness.

10/21/2015 3:15:10 PM ---- Updated 10/21/2015 3:20:47 PM

I'd add that one shouldn't get caught up in masquerade guessing games because the guessers are wrong at least as often as they are right and some nice people end up getting scared away sometimes.

10/21/2015 3:15:29 PM

I am joking at your expense, but mean no offense.
Cheers, bro.
:)

10/21/2015 3:19:15 PM ---- Updated 10/21/2015 3:25:12 PM

Nadir, There was no disrespect or anyone trying to "set you up" at least not from me, and I liked what I heard. and added up the song, I thought it had potential with lyrics and vocals. Anyways, hope you dont get too rattled, there are some who will joke around, but they are harmless, take it all in stride, we are all for new people and artists, and i for one try to make an effort to welcome people like you and others, and have for over a decade.

10/21/2015 3:23:53 PM

Oh, and the jam was actually good.
I have no problem believing it isn't a drum machine as well.
I am saying you aren't who you say you are.
Sure, I could be wrong, but, I'm pretty sure I know exactly who you are.
If I am wrong, welcome to the pipeline.

10/21/2015 3:26:19 PM

Good luck and dont be holding back your music.

10/21/2015 4:14:57 PM

I'm an excellent collaborator. Give me a try sometime. Just PM me or post on my page.

Steve

10/22/2015 3:33:41 PM

With me collabs worked if we were on the same page at the same time. Otherwise differences surface that make it really hard to do. With me it was never personal i tried my best to take it from a musical standpoint. My first collab was with Anjuli and Steve we were 10000 miles apart San Diego. The Gaslighters i used to call them via Peterhead Scotland. It is a nightmare sending off an unknown new song to a complete stranger in the hope they can make sense of what you are doing and trying to bring across lyrically. Sometimes it works in a way you did not initially think of life is really weird but the thought was there

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