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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 5:03:41 AM
---- Updated 1/19/2008 8:03:54 PM
Does anyone still believe 911 was NOT an inside job?
Update (20th Jan 08) - please read all the way through before you reply to my first post. My views have somewhat changed since this post.
In the wake of the mountain of evidence suggesting 911 was an inside job, I find it difficult to believe anyone who has done any real research would think anything other than it being an inside job.
There's dozens of video clips on Youtube, dedicated websites, information from educated people with physics, demolition and forensic expertise all in agreement that the whole thing was an inside job.
Here's just one of the Youtube videos
Check out this information posted on ae911truth.org
.....the Twin Towers' destruction exhibited all the characteristics of destruction by explosions:
1.
Extremely rapid onset of “collapse”
2.
Sounds of explosions at plane impact zone — a full second prior to collapse (heard by 118 first responders as well as by media reporters)
3.
Observations of flashes (seen by numerous professionals)
4.
Squibs, or “mistimed” explosions, 40 floors below the “collapsing” building seen in all the videos
5.
Mid-air pulverization of all the 90,000 tons of concrete and steel decking, filing cabinets & 1000 people – mostly to dust
6.
Massive volume of expanding pyroclastic dust clouds
7.
Vertical progression of full building perimeter demolition waves
8.
Symmetrical collapse – through the path of greatest resistance – at nearly free-fall speed — the columns gave no resistance
9.
1,400 foot diameter field of equally distributed debris – outside of building footprint
10.
Blast waves blew out windows in buildings 400 feet away
11.
Lateral ejection of thousands of individual 20 - 50 ton steel beams up to 500 feet
12.
Total destruction of the building down to individual structural steel elements – obliterating the steel core structure.
13.
Tons of molten Metal found by FDNY under all 3 high-rises (no other possible source other than an incendiary cutting charge such as Thermate)
14.
Chemical signature of Thermate (high tech incendiary) found in slag, solidified molten metal, and dust samples by Physics professor Steven Jones, PhD.
15.
FEMA finds rapid oxidation and intergranular melting on structural steel samples
16.
More than 1000 Bodies are unaccounted for — 700 tiny bone fragments found on top of nearby buildings
And exhibited none of the characteristics of destruction by fire, i.e.
1.
Slow onset with large visible deformations
2.
Asymmetrical collapse which follows the path of least resistance (laws of conservation of momentum would cause a falling, intact, from the point of plane impact, to the side most damaged by the fires)
3.
Evidence of fire temperatures capable of softening steel
4.
High-rise buildings with much larger, hotter, and longer lasting fires have never “collapsed”
SuperPuss
 
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Hop On Pop
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1/18/2008 5:12:30 AM
Larree in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...
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No Rhythm
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1/18/2008 5:45:05 AM
Suddenly I'm intrigued.....The evidence does seem to point toward some ruthless corporations clearing the slate so to speak.....Empires are always run by tyrants who hold little value for human life if it interferes with the profit sheet.
Mark
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THE JACK PADDLE COVER BAND
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1/18/2008 6:02:43 AM
Well they needed a reason didn't they!? A reason to go to war!! Something to give the people so that they too would want them to go to war!! What better reason!!??
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 6:16:16 AM
---- Updated 1/18/2008 6:20:07 AM
Silverstein obviously knew about it. He made 7 BILLION dollars in a matter of MONTHS from 911.....
and
SuperPuss
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RedRobin
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1/18/2008 6:39:59 AM
....Very neat theories but we'll never really know for sure. What we do know is that Al Q were more than happy to take the credit (in their eyes) for it.
It's a mad world and by far the most dangerous creature which inhabits this planet is Man.
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THE JACK PADDLE COVER BAND
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1/18/2008 6:56:45 AM
Ummmm!! They were more than happy were they Robin!? You know, not everything you see on the television, hear on a radio or read in a book is necessarily the truth. Just because they told us that Al Queada accepted responsibility, doesn't actually mean they did!!
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Texas Willie
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1/18/2008 7:04:40 AM
BULLSHIT!
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 7:04:42 AM
I totally agree with your last statement, Red Robin.
Here's some more interesting information..... Google "pnac 911" and you'll find tons more.
SuperPuss
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 7:07:50 AM
and here's a clip related to my previous post....
SuperPuss
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Andy Broad
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1/18/2008 7:36:08 AM
You know what's really worrying?
I bet none of you have noticed.
This intials of this site bear a spopky resmbalnce to those of a ceratain amarican orangisation. I mean just rearrange IAC abit and what do you get?
All the money from our ownload sales is being syphoned of to fund heinous acts of espianage and subveraion in foreigh countries!
Any mnore conspiracy theories?
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RedRobin
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1/18/2008 7:36:22 AM
"Ummmm!! They were more than happy were they Robin!? You know, not everything you see on the television, hear on a radio or read in a book is necessarily the truth. Just because they told us that Al Queada accepted responsibility, doesn't actually mean they did!!"
....Very true. But it works both ways and so perhaps we never know the truth of what is reported. It's all part of politics and propaganda and every nation does it to suit what they think is in their best interests.
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Andy Broad
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1/18/2008 7:37:31 AM
"You know, not everything you see on the television, hear on a radio or read in a book is necessarily the truth"
But everything you read on the internet is....
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RedRobin
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1/18/2008 7:44:51 AM
.... LOL !!!!
Brilliant comment, Andy!
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 7:48:27 AM
Some Graphics, some videos, and a little bullshit thrown in ......Very sad....
Three thousand people, three planes, demolition equipment????? a conspiracy ??...Please people use your f'n common sense.
With all due respect Tatainia,personally I find it insulting and hurtful to all those who lost their lives on 9/11.
The terrorists are responsible.....Pilots had their throats cut...the planes hit the towers....oh wait, some people believe the planes really did not hit the towers and hundreds of people just got on a plane and disappeared....
You are all entitled to your opinion....if you believe this, you may believe whatever someone tells you with a little creative evidence and storytelling....and computer animation.
Jeff
Y
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 8:03:56 AM
I am stunned that people simply can't even comprehend that this is most likely NOT conjecture!!! Jeez people!! DO SOME RESEARCH and OPEN YOUR EYES!!!
How damn obvious does it have to be?!!
Those buildings were demolished by carefully planned and planted charges. It is blatently obvious!! ..... Look at the facts! These are not things concocted by conspiracy theorists (there's plenty of that amongst 911 too though). Much of the information is presented by experts and people with degrees and real knowledge.
Aside from that, it doesn't take too much I.Q. or common sense to see that those buildings did NOT collapse due to fire. A high school kid with a basic understanding of elementary classical physics could prove that a controlled demolition was the reason for the collapses!! They fell unimpeded at free fall speeds.
I was going to do the math myself but I just did a quick Google search and it has already been done HERE
Do yourselves a favour and do some REAL research. Question things on BOTH sides (I have ever since 911 first happened) and be prepared to learn something!!
SuperPuss
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LyinDan
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1/18/2008 8:06:42 AM
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LyinDan
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1/18/2008 8:09:30 AM
It's terrible, just terrible
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RedRobin
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1/18/2008 8:15:44 AM
This is a debate which could run forever. It also illustrates how we all like to believe what we want to believe.
My own view is that whereas I wouldn't be surprised if it was 'an inside job', I think that it's extremely unlikely.
However, since when has ANY government or ruler throughout human history been too bothered privately about the lives of its subjects in what it sees as the best interests of the whole. Publicly it can never afford to admit that.
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 8:29:12 AM
I'm sorry Dan but with all due respect to you, that link proves nothing! Tell me how the towers collapsed at free fall speed and tell me how the charges to make that happen were put in place.
Seriously, if you can prove this (I have tried), I am willing to totally reconsider my research. I would like to believe that this was not an inside job. The thought that any US person / people could be responsible for such an atrocity sends shudders down my spine.
I WANT to believe that 911 had nothing to do with US authority.
SuperPuss
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SqurlyMurly
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1/18/2008 8:30:37 AM
Life is a conspiracy. From the second you come into this world, plans are already in place for your demise.
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 8:37:02 AM
....oh, and even if the steel was weakened, where were all the large chunks of concrete, the bodies of the victims, the pieces of computer parts and office furniture and all the other jagged remains that would be present in a 'pancake collapsing' building?
EVERYTHING was turned to dust and that dust formed a pyroclastic flow similar to the flow created from a volcanic eruption. It takes extreme energy and heat (FAR greater than any relatively low temperature fire caused by burning jet fuel and office furniture) to create such conditions.
SuperPuss
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 9:08:32 AM
One theory I did initially believe was that the Pentagon was not hit by a plane but by a missile. However, upon doing more research and a whole bunch of questioning and reasoning, I came to the conclusion that that was highly improbable. The Pentagon images were mostly from security cameras running at low frame rates and missed much of the motion detail needed to capture images of a plane at flight speeds, hence the ensuing conjecture that a plane was never present.
Besides, what the hell happened to all the people on that flight if it never hit the Pentagon?? Where did they go?
These and other nagging improbabilities have been sufficiently answered (for me) in the following video clip....
SuperPuss
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Steve Ison
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1/18/2008 9:12:15 AM
$7,000 million is a helluva lotta cash!
The motivation and gains for big buisness are obviously there....And the 'free-falling' uninhibited towers from fire evidence shown does seem really compelling..
I guess my main thing for not believing at the moment is that the amount of people they'd've needed to've implemented this atrocity is unbelivable.
How many 100s of U.S citizens would've had to've been involved-not just the top army n industrialists planning,but the regular folks setting up the charges in the buildings-then blowing them etc..
Are all of them afraid to speak out?
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 9:16:44 AM
---- Updated 1/18/2008 9:19:55 AM
Those are some very good questions Steve. I'd like to know the answers to those too.
Hopefully, we will find out.
Actually, some of the information coming forward now IS from people who are starting to speak out.... and yes, I do believe many people would be VERY afraid to speak>
SuperPuss
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 10:07:11 AM
Go ahead and ramble about "elementary Physics" all you want....
The twin towers are unlike any buildings in the world...please go ahead and do a controlled experiment where two fully loaded missles loaded with Jet fuel crash into them at 500 miles an hour....
Steve makes great points, the level of coordination, discipline, and secrecy could not be attained.
Incredible that middle eastern terrorists were involved and recruited to the plot, and hijacked the planes, flew them and killed themselves. The charges were set, on many floors, without anyone noticing, they went off without a hitch....
Thousands of "subjects" and heroic fire fighters and police were murdered so we could go to war, or a corporation could make money....
The pure "evil" and collaboration involved.....
This conspiracy has very little traction, if any in the United States. In an era of Media blitz and sensationalism if it were relevant it would be everywhere.
Throwing around so called dfacts of Physics and insullting the intelligence of people who disagree is pointless....
I don't jhave a physics degree, were blessed with such Intelligence on this site. If you indeed have a degree, and fully understand everything withought being swayed by clever people trying to prove a point I commend you.
...
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 10:08:54 AM
Sorry for the spelling at the end..I had to run!
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 10:12:48 AM
We are probably unlikely to convince each other Jeff.
There are people talking about unprecedented power downs and 'work' on the towers shortly before 911.
Have a look at this clip......
SuperPuss
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 10:17:09 AM
http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html
This article could do it better then I could ever try...
Good Luck with your beliefs, I wish you well.
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 10:32:11 AM
Thanks for the link Jeff. I am reading through it now (up to page 5) and so far, not one single part of the research I have done has been proven incorrect.
In fact, on page four, there is the following quote:
FACT: Once each tower began to collapse, the weight of all the floors above the collapsed zone bore down with pulverizing force on the highest intact floor. Unable to absorb the massive energy, that floor would fail, transmitting the forces to the floor below, allowing the collapse to progress downward through the building in a chain reaction. Engineers call the process "pancaking," and it does not require an explosion to begin, according to David Biggs, a structural engineer at Ryan-Biggs Associates and a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) team that worked on the FEMA report.
Like all office buildings, the WTC towers contained a huge volume of air. As they pancaked, all that air — along with the concrete and other debris pulverized by the force of the collapse — was ejected with enormous energy. "When you have a significant portion of a floor collapsing, it's going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window," NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder tells PM. Those clouds of dust may create the impression of a controlled demolition, Sunder adds, "but it is the floor pancaking that leads to that perception."
That supposed FACT has one MAJOR flaw. It fails to explain how all three WTC buildings defied the laws of physics with the rate of collapse. Pancaking does NOT allow a building to free fall at terminal velocity. That simple FACT alone debunks the whole statement by Popular Mechanics on the collapse of the WTC buildings.
SuperPuss
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 10:44:47 AM
Actually Jeff, that link you sent me confirms and backs up some of my own research, particularly in relation to the Pentagon incident.
I disagree with them that the contents of the buildings fuelling the fires created temperatures hot enough to degrade the structural integrity of the support columns. The only substance able to do that is Thermite or Thermate which WAS found amongst the debris.
Besides, as I have already mentioned, even if the columns were compromised by the fires alone, that still does not explain the rate of collapse.
SuperPuss
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LyinDan
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1/18/2008 10:44:48 AM
Hey, Titania. :)
In your link, that guy does a reasonable job with some rather simple math, but only to a point. As soon as he's figured out how quickly the building would fall in a vacuum, he simply forgets the math and starts assuming that the air and the resistance of collapsing floors would significantly slow the fall, with no figures whatsoever to back that up. Saying that a man's terminal velocity is about 120 miles an hour doesn't translate very well to an enormous chunk of concrete. What's different is the inertia.
I watched a controlled demolition of a skyscraper in Little Rock back around 1980 (maybe a little earlier). Got it on Super 8 film, actually. Anyway, once that kind of mass gets started, it's hard to stop.
I suppose he's thinking there were controlled charges on every floor? If not, there would still be considerable resistance to collapse from the floors that weren't blown up. Even if let's say, 5 or 10 floors were detonated, that would still leave a considerable amount of floor resistance, eh? So, the observation that the tower fell the way it did without every floor being detonated means that floors being detonated, unless it were a significant number of them, would be an insignificant factor in slowing or speeding the fall.
You'd have to do some sophisticated architechtural calculations to know the amount of resistance presented by each floor and what it would take to overcome it. Still, my intuition is that it would be surprisingly small. All that has to be overcome is the shearing force on the edges at a limited number of attachment points.
So, I don't think collapsing floors present that much impedance to a fall of a mass like that.
As i remember the building fall I saw, they simply knocked the supports out from under it, and it collapsed amazingly quickly.
Correct my math :)
Which is not to say there might not be some true 'conspiracy'. There sure is an enormous cloud of misinformation and muddled thinking on the 9/11 subject, and it may be obscuring the true parts. I'm definitely not what you'd call a government apologist.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 10:47:17 AM
At the end of the piece is a list of people consulted....Phd's, Engineers, Doctors of Physics.
Please argue your poinnt of "terminal velocity" with them... I am sure they can explain it...go ahead and write them, of course I am sure they have more important things to do with their time.
I got as far as Business Calculus....I am not prepared to debate physics. I will leave that to the experts.
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 10:53:55 AM
Those are some very interesting points Dan. I agree that not every floor would need to be detonated in order to make the buildings collapse at the rate they did and, in fact, most controlled demolitions of that magnitude do not have every floor detonated. Often, it is only necessary to detonate far enough ahead of (below) the inertia front of the falling mass in order to keep it moving at close to terminal free fall velocity.
There's actiually far more to demolitions (I am no demolition expert) than my simplification above. It is a very exact science and somewhat of an art. Experienced professionals can achieve astounding results with great accuracy and a minimum of charges placed carefully in strategic points.
You can actually see squibs (mistimed detonations) from some of these charges in some of the WTC footage.
SuperPuss
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 10:57:18 AM
Jeff,
Perhaps I will write to them. I would like to see their explanation of the rate of fall. If they can indeed provide a plausible explanation, I will take that on board. As I have said earlier, I don't like the idea that this could be an inside job but all I have seen so far points with a high degree of certainty to it.
SuperPuss
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 10:58:34 AM
"I disagree with them that the contents of the buildings fuelling the fires created temperatures hot enough to degrade the structural integrity of the support columns. The only substance able to do that is Thermite or Thermate which WAS found amongst the debris"
And how do you know they found that substance??? You read it? Its just another piece thrown out their to conveniently support a theory. If its in Print..I guess its fact.
They did not get around to debunking that myth.....
Titania...what makes you qualified to post opinions on Physics?? Just curious, again...if you have delved into it deeply and fully understand EVERYTHING involved I commend you. If you have a cursory understanding, using the conjecture of others to prove a point is not relevent.
You brought up common sense earlier, sometimes I believe that is more powerful then any mathematical formula. I admnit to using common sense in this thread, I am not qualified to agree or refute areas where I lack expertise.
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LyinDan
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1/18/2008 11:04:26 AM
Why does a feather fall at a slower rate in air than a chunk of rock of the same square area? Inertia. The greater the inertia, the less an object's fall is affected by fixed forces such as the resistance of the air. Or the resistance of a shearing point, if we're talking about a concrete floor affixed to a perimeter. The inertia of the falling tower's floors, especially after a few have pancaked, is enormous. The increased mass won't make it fall faster than it would in gravity, but easily trumps the resistance of the air and shearing force of the floors' perimeter.
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satch
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1/18/2008 11:04:29 AM
The crux of the matter is that it doesn't matter... people will believe whatever is most comfortable for them to believe, people will believe the things that allow them to continue in their happy safe lives, no matter what evidence there might be to the contrary.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 11:19:00 AM
What does believing this serve? I guess It reinforces a belief that the United States is evil and corrupt. The United States has many flawas and some decisions need questions....But I feel this conspiracy is insulting to the familes with loved ones who perished. It takes the blame off the terrorists and places the blame on the United States Government. The amount of time to piece this elobarate hoax together is amazing, nd demonstrates the true hatred and disgust some have for the United States or its current government. Amazing...
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LyinDan
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1/18/2008 11:20:54 AM
By the way, those 'squibs' of mistimed detonations are also explained as compressed air and debris shooting through ventilation shafts
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LyinDan
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1/18/2008 11:23:38 AM
And I am pretty disgusted with the current government of the U.S. We can't dismiss too easily these 'conspiracy' theories. Some of them are undoubtedly true, at least in essence. We learned that from the Nixon years.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 11:30:04 AM
One of my favorite philosophical tenets is that people will only agree with you if they already agree with you. You do not change people's minds. - Frank Zappa
Todays front page quote... Perfect :)
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 11:31:33 AM
"Lyin Dan"... sounds like a great name for a ploitician! :)
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 11:46:34 AM
spell check or the ability to Edit would be great!
a "Plotitician" the Politician who hatched the 9/11 Plot!! :)
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 11:55:52 AM
Dan,
I can accept the possibility that compressed air from ventilation shafts could cause squib-like blasts. What I would like to know, if that is the case, is what sort of air velocity would it take to blast out windows and would that sort of air blast in such a small stream not obliterate the ventilation ducts before it blew out the windows?
About the feather vs chunk of rock question, it is friction that determines the terminal velocity.
Jeff,
As a matter of fact, I am qualified in both electronics and physics. FWIW, I designed and built my first hifi system when I was 14 years old. The amplifier from that system is still in use today (22 years later) as the subwoofer amp in my studio.
One of my great fascinations these days is Quantum Field Theory. I still have a LOT to learn about it though!
Satch,
I agree with you completely. The only thing that will awaken some people is if the issue in question starts to affect them directly in a way that threatens their comfortable existance. The problem is, at that point, like the frog in the proverbial pot of water, they are unaware until it is too late!
SuperPuss
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satch
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1/18/2008 12:07:33 PM
"What does believing this serve? I guess It reinforces a belief that the United States is evil and corrupt. The United States has many flawas and some decisions need questions....But I feel this conspiracy is insulting to the familes with loved ones who perished. It takes the blame off the terrorists and places the blame on the United States Government. The amount of time to piece this elobarate hoax together is amazing, nd demonstrates the true hatred and disgust some have for the United States or its current government. Amazing..."
What does "believing" anything serve? My point is that believing something usually serves to make the person doing the "believing" feel comfortable, no matter what the facts might be.
Also, and most importantly, (read my words carefully now) people are actually only capable of believing what they can understand and accept...
This so-called conspiracy has nothing to do with the people who died or with their families, these innocent victims have everybody's sympathy! No-one has exclusive domain on empathy with victims, just like no-one has exclusive domain on truth, especially when we shall never know the facts - but it is interesting how often people make that connection, accusing the so-called conspiracy theorists of dissing the victims...
For me it seems sad that some people are so quick to jump up and shout down any kind of "alternative to the mainstream of American thought" as being anti-American, traitors, commie-pinko-liberal-speak, going right back to the sad old days of McCarthyism! Boy, nothing has changed in the last 5 decades or so, has it?
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LyinDan
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1/18/2008 12:13:43 PM
![]()
where
Vt is the terminal velocity,
m is the mass of the falling object,
g is gravitational acceleration at the Earth's surface,
Cd is the drag coefficient,
? is the density of the fluid the object is falling through, and
A is the object's cross-sectional area.
So, mass of the falling object is a contributor.
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The Man With No Band
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1/18/2008 12:16:00 PM
S.P. !!!!!!!! Shame on you !!!!! (Don't you know) ? .... A lady should never disclose their age ... :)
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LyinDan
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1/18/2008 12:16:41 PM
Image no work.
Formula for terminal velocity
Vt = Square root of (2mg divided by pACd)
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LyinDan
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1/18/2008 12:18:40 PM
where
Vt is the terminal velocity,
m is the mass of the falling object,
g is gravitational acceleration at the Earth's surface,
Cd is the drag coefficient,
p is the density of the fluid the object is falling through, and
A is the object's cross-sectional area.
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LyinDan
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1/18/2008 12:21:28 PM
Which is the math way of saying it. The common non math way of saying it is that the mass has a lot of inertia, like, "Man! That George Bush sure has a lot of inertia!"
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Vartan
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1/18/2008 12:32:17 PM
Ok, I have read through this entire post and many of the linked pages. I don't see any compelling evidence that those buildings didn't fall as a direct result of two enormous jets crashing into them and the fire that unsued.
Keep in mind, people, that these were two of the largest buildings on the entire planet. If you analyze the fall mathmatically and you find discrepancies, I'd say it is because you don't have all the factors of the equation. And how could you have all the factors. Do you have the blueprints? Do you know where people were in the building? Do you know which levels were engulfed in flaming jet fuel? How much fuel? Besides these random little questions, there are about a million other things that were going on inside those buildings when this awful catastrophy happened.
All due respect, I was in Manhattan the day it happened. I was heading into the city on the A train from my home in Cobble Hill, Brooklyn. I went right underneath them as they were aflame before they fell and saw the panic ensuing. I asked a man who just got on the train at the Chambers Street station what was happening out there. He was in one tower and saw the first plane hit the opposite building from his office. He got out of his building immediately and saw the second plane hit his building just shortly after he had exited. He went down in the subway to get on a train and get out of there and that's where I met him. Did he work for the conspiracy too? Was he at the front lines spreading lies? Highly doubtful. I also saw the buildings flaming into the sky from the roof of Sony Music Studios, where I worked at the time. I watched masses of dirt covered people marching up 9th avenue after the fall. The traumatized looks on their faces. I felt the panic too. I watched the smoke rise from ground zero and I smelled the decay of death hanging in the city streets for weeks after the fall.
I don't know who drove the planes as I wasn't on them. But you can be sure that two planes hit the towers, the towers weren't built to withstand this particular kind of event (and HOW could they possibly be) and fall they did.
Think what you will of the US government, but I will bet that as much as I don't like President Bush and what he's done in the days since 911, he did not decide to take the lives of innocent working New York City people that day in September 2001. And all I can hope for the future is that a good and just president is chosen in the upcoming elections and that he or she will do what is necessary to rebuild our image in the world and once again make the United States a respected and respectful member of the world society. We all need to stop hating and start loving all of mankind.
Vartan
P.S. Can someone please invent solar powered everything so we can stop the oil BS? PLEASE?
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satch
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1/18/2008 12:35:30 PM
Good post Vartan!
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remote_s
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1/18/2008 12:40:40 PM
so, i guess the response to the thread's title/subject question is:
yes?
harharhahrahrah
remote(s)
(sorry if this isn't ACTUALLY funny, and only SEEMED funny :)
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 1:00:11 PM
Another great post Satch :-)
LOL about my age Sam!!!
Dan,
Mass is absolutely a factor in determining terminal velocity. In it's simplest form F=Ma where F=Force, M=Mass and a=acceleration (near sea level it is 9.8 m/s squared).
You then have two vectors, the force of air resistance acting on the cross sectional area of the object (up) and the force of the object falling (down). The difference between these vectors determines Vt. :-)
Vartan,
I am totally unconvinced that the planes alone and the resulting fires caused the collapse of the towers and am especially unconvinced that the WTC7 collapse was not controlled demolition.
Your account of the day and the ensuing days is certainly chilling though.
Here's an interesting alternative energy source that looks very promising....
More info HERE
SuperPuss
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 1:23:26 PM
I was waiting for you Larree!! :-)
People ARE speaking out about this now. Firefighters, people that were in the buildings, ex govt people, people that were in the street. In fact, people have been speaking out about it for a long time and more are starting to follow.
Granted, there are some absurd conspiracy theories floating around just as there are equally absurd denials from the other side.
I am simply seeking to find the real truth and, at this point, the evidence as I see it points to an inside job.
Watch the whole 'Coincidence' series on Youtube and do your own research. Question everything both for and against the inside job possibility. If you uncover something that proves this was not an inside job, please share it here for others to question and research.
SuperPuss
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remote_s
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1/18/2008 1:25:17 PM
superpuss: "there are some absurd conspiracy theories floating around"...
you can say that again! some floating closer than others!
remote(s)
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Holo Lukaloa
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1/18/2008 1:26:10 PM
I'm about 50/50 on this but I'm of the belief that if it was staged that this doesn't necessarily mean our main government officials knew a thing about it. Could be some group from Idaho that infilitrated high places.
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Vartan
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1/18/2008 1:29:03 PM
Hi Superpuss,
I certainly respect you and your right to think freely. So in the light of respectful debate, here's my thoughts to add to the mix. hehe. I think that real and accurate evidence is hard to come by and that looking to Google and Youtube for certifiable answers is going to lead to misinformation most of the time. All I can say is try not to rely on only math for the truth.
When I was in the subway with that man who told me what was happening, everyone including myself's first thought was terrorism. After all, this wasn't the first terrorist attack on the WTC.
And I don't know if you have ever seen the WTC. They were nearly TWICE the size of any of the surrounding buildings which are all HUGE. And there was TWO of them! The WTC was just an enormous structure. It really shouldn't surprise anyone that there was as much destruction to the surrounding buildings as there was.
Anyway, I mean no disrespect. I don't buy the conspiracy theory is all. (So yes Satch I guess my answer is "Yes" after all. hahaha)
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 1:32:27 PM
lol remote :-)
Holo,
Exactly who was in on this (assuming an inside job) is just speculation at this point. There are some pretty obvious suspects though!
SuperPuss
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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1/18/2008 1:34:22 PM
----a brave post SP------and others who have contributed
'Hats off to Larree ' (Del Shannon) for not getting abusive----must be the new haircut! heh
My personal beliefs would be closest to Satch------ and only time will uncover!
but IF it was--------- just the planes driven by (mostly Saudi pilots )
why did Bushco attack Iraq---and stay bossom buddies with Saudi Arabia??
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 1:36:28 PM
No disrespect taken V. :-)
I will always listen to a thoughtfully posted point of view even if I do not share your opinion.
SuperPuss
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Vartan
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1/18/2008 1:40:54 PM
Cool cool :-)
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 1:53:23 PM
"BULLSHIT!" Texas Willie earlier in the Thread.....
Quick, succinct, to the point....No Physics, Just In....Out....and off to get a Beer.
He is a wise man :)
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 1:53:53 PM
Thanks for your input Silverwood.... it's great to see Larree here without smashing up more guitars!!!! Maybe the haircut has indeed worked...... Larree, here's a hug back for ya!!!
V,
I am absolutely not surprised by the damage to the other buildings. Pyroclastic flows will destroy anything in their wake! The fact that there were pyroclastic flows tells me this was not a mere 'pancake' collapse. A pyroclastic flow behaves like a liquid, a VERY HOT liquid and can only come from temperatures WAY above airplane fuel and building contents. The buildings were basically liquefied when they fell!!!
A building of that magnitude collapsing due to structural failure could not turn completely to dust in the way they did.
SuperPuss
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 1:58:56 PM
Oh dear me Jeff!!! I don't know Texas Willie so I can't comment on his wisdom!
Enjoy your beer. Perhaps one day we'll jam together and use music to bypass our differences on 911. ;-)
SuperPuss
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 2:11:39 PM
Check out the debunking911 website, enough ammo there to keep this debate going on for weeks!..... I think energies can and should be spent elswhere.....
No Problems Tatainia... I need to get back to work.
See ya!
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 2:47:56 PM
Jeff,
Thanks for that link. The information on THIS page makes perfect sense to me and seems quite a plausible (in fact, highly probable) cause for the flow of molten material on the 80th floor.
The combination of lead, sulphuric acid, hydrogen, alloys such as aluminium and massive currents in the tens of thousands of amps due to short circuiting of the batteries in the UPS system could easily create an extremely volatile situation.
I will continue to look into other explanations on that site.
SuperPuss
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LyinDan
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1/18/2008 2:56:27 PM
"Pyroclastic flows" discussions:
Discussion board
Professor of Natural Science
The second one has some stuff on the freefall bit.
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The CODE
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1/18/2008 3:20:37 PM
Why don't somebody ask The President?
He should know!!!
Peace out to the little people!!!
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 3:37:54 PM
Great links Dan. I was just reading another page from the website Jeff provided and that also discusses the pyroclastic flow and also discusses the rate of collapse of the building with some decent physics to back it up.
Check this out
A number of times I asked people if they could provide me with information relating to explanations other than the inside job explanations I had seen to date. I seems both you and Jeff have found exactly that.
I am really glad I posted this blog entry and am delighted it has gained such an active response with decent hypothesis' on both sides.
This is real food for thought.
I also want to mention at this point that no matter who was responsible for 911, it was an absolute disgrace and a tragedy that is inexcusable no matter what one believes.
SuperPuss
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BJ
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1/18/2008 3:46:19 PM
"There is no way on Earth that no one would say anything if they were involved in something like this. There is no way that all of those people would keep quiet. And what about the family members and friends who would have picked up on the strange behavior, too? No way."
I LOVE conspiracy theories, but I've gotta agree with Larree with this one. It's just unconceivable - all those demolition experts spending hours and hours placing all those charges in precise locations in two huge buildings while thousands of people filed past going about their daily business and NO ONE noticed?
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 4:13:25 PM
I must admit, I (obviously) love conspiracy theories too!! However, as a rational and open minded person, when I am presented with compelling information that counters my initial research, I have to consider changing my perspective.
I tend to get very passionate about things as most of us here do (we are creative souls after all!!) and sometimes this passion can cloud better judgement.
If I was to use better judgement at the expense of intuitive passion in my music, I'd be in real trouble!!! My music would be very boring!
As someone qualified in scientific fields though, I need to be able to detach my emotions from my research and this is often not an easy thing to do!
Now, perhaps I should just go off and write a song about the art of scientific emotional detachment! What a mindfuck!!
SuperPuss
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Pulse Eternal
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1/18/2008 4:38:43 PM
Jeez, I dunno what to think now! I think there's some strong points on both sides and both sides claim to have compelling evidence. At the same time, there's things on both sides that don't add up to me.
I can either do a lot more research or I can go and write music and perform strength feats. Bugger the research for now. That can wait. I need a break from it to regain some perspective... right now I need to have some fun!
Larree, if you change your mind about Capitol records, I'm free to do some bare handed office demolition!!!!
SuperPuss
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LyinDan
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1/18/2008 6:04:08 PM
Hey, that link with the UPS story was excellent. Hadn't seen that!
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Monkey68
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1/18/2008 6:15:50 PM
Jeez, I dunno what to think now
All that's important is that you are thinking - too many people are accepting what's in front of them without question. There are bigger forces at work than corporations and governments.
Zeitgeist
V
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mysticangel_001
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1/18/2008 9:06:23 PM
***How many 100s of U.S citizens would've had to've been involved-not just the top army n industrialists planning,but the regular folks setting up the charges in the buildings-then blowing them etc..***
Here is a theory for you...the government has access to all business/tax records, they could easily find companies that are under severe financial strain, start watching them, find out what kind of people run these businesses, choose the ones that they feel are ruthless enough or they can manipulate. Go to them, offer them grotesquely large sums of money to set up the appropriate "bombs" and tell them they're going to have this happen at night when the building are, for the most part, empty. Once the "attack" happens those who were involved would be mortified but a few well rendered threats against their lives, or the lives of their loved ones, would more than likely keep them quiet. Then if one did come forward and tell what happened they would be accused of being a crack pot out to accuse the government of wrong doing.
How do they explain the money? They won it in the lottery, they finally got a good paying job, Uncle George...the crazy old bastard...died and left them a fortune...or perhaps they don't tell exactly how much they got and their family is only aware that they came into enough money to get caught up. How do they explain their devestation at what happened? Look at how many people around the world were devestated by the events of 9-11.
As for the terrorists? Someone brought up that most of the pilots were Saudi's and yet the US gov has remained on good terms with Saudi Arabia. Get someone to offer these terrorist groups large sums of money to hijack and crash these planes into the designated targets. They're thinking "YEAH! We not only get to take their money but we also get to destroy the evil Americans!" It would be entirely possible that it wouldn't even have to be the government that approached the terrorist groups, it could have been anybody.
$$$, guilt, and blackmail go a long ways to controlling people. This will be just like the JFK assassination...Lee Harvey Oswald, a convicted felon, was the scapegoat, but was he honestly the killer? There is evidence now that there was more than one shooter and "theory" is that the government had something to do with Kennedy's assassination. Can it be proven? Can it be disproven? Can it be proven, beyond a shadow of a doubt that the US government was not in some way involved in the attacks of 9-11? Nope, there will always be doubts, there will always be theories, there will never be any proof, one way or another.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 9:10:13 PM
Sounds like the works of a good Fiction Novel there friend....write it!
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mysticangel_001
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1/18/2008 9:32:38 PM
Hmmm...no more fictional than what Hiltler, Moussilini, Stalin, Hussein, etc did.
I'm sure the people of those countries would have loved to have blamed the actions of their "Leaders" on someone else and not on the people who they chose to run their countries. I'm sure there were citizens of those countries who, even though the evidence was right in front of them, still chose to believe that what their leaders were doing was the right thing. Everyone is up in arms about the innocent people in America who were killed during the 9-11 attacks but what of the innocent people in Iraq who have been killed or maimed? Do they not count? Our govenrment has sent troops over there and they're blowing up that country to teach them a lesson? Isn't that what the previously named dictators used as an excuse? Is it so hard to accept that perhaps there are some in OUR government who are just as evil and insane as those mentioned?
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 9:46:59 PM
You have disgust for Bush I get it.... I don't believe 3000 of Our Sons and Daughters are dying to "Teach them a Lesson"
I was not being negative, or illiciting a condemnation of our country..I was being honest... you are very creative, you have thought it through and you have the makings of a good Novel.
Good Luck to you.
Jeff
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mysticangel_001
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1/18/2008 9:51:24 PM
I never said it was BUSH that was behind it...our government consists of a whole lot more than just the village idiot but I don't imagine it would have taken a whole lot of effort to convince him that he would be a hero if he did this.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 10:03:08 PM
Really Our Government is more then one Guy??? Thanks for the civics lesson.
.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 10:04:42 PM
Your Hatred for the Man is burning through the screen......Only a few more months.....hope you can bear it.
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mysticangel_001
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1/18/2008 10:33:19 PM
Hate is a negative emotion and I have no room in my life for negativity. Just because I don't agree with what our government is doing doesn't mean that I hate them, it means that I don't agree with what they are doing. Just because I don't agree with my teenaged boys being interested in watching porn doesn't mean I hate them, it just means I don't agree with it.
A person can disagree with something and there not be any hatred behind it. What is interesting though is that your defensiveness seems a bit over-exaggerated, like perhaps you're feeling threatened in some way. No threats from me, I'm simply stating my opinion in relation to the thread and the responses that have already been made just as you, and all the rest, have stated your opinions.
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Jeff Allen Myers
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1/18/2008 10:49:32 PM
"our government consists of a whole lot more than just the village idiot "
No that's not negative....is it???
As for threatened? Oh come on now.....
Fine, you have a right to your opinion and you have a right to it., I am sure we got off on the wrong foot. We know nothing about each other, but I Know one thing, we are both here on IAC for more then arguing politics.. We share a common interest...
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mysticangel_001
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1/18/2008 11:15:06 PM
LOL...just because I don't see him as the sharpest tack in the box doesn't mean I hate him and there have been "a few" things that he has done that have impressed the hell out of me. And yes, while debating politics is mentally stimulating, it is the music that brought me here.
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Pulse Eternal
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1/19/2008 12:51:39 AM
Angel,
Thanks foir sharing your views here. While I am undecided about the facts on 911 (it really is all just speculation on either side at present), I do know one thing..... It is a known fact that Bush has an I.Q. somewhat lower than average.
Then again, I believe he is acting mainly as a spokesperson and he clearly possesses certain qualities that make him able to do the job he's been appointed to do. The question is exactly who is in control and what is his 'job'?
I have my opinions on that too. I am certain that stating those opinions will open another BIG can of worms here.........might be an idea!!!! ;-)
SuperPuss
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remote_s
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1/19/2008 5:29:09 AM
"It is a known fact that Bush has an I.Q. somewhat lower than average"
boy, you just keep spouting whatever internet "wisdom" pops up on your conspiracy sites, huh?
you're referring to the lovenstein institute report claiming his IQ as 91, right? the institute is fictional, that number has been roundly dismissed as fictitious, and i would recommend a simple google search before posting outlandish statements as "known facts".
i don't care for bush, i don't think he comes off as smart, i don't particularly care about the greater argument going on in this thread- but i am tired as hell of people just regurgitating COMPLETE FALSEHOODS as "known fact"s.
which you seem to be doing a fair bit of.
respectfully,
remote(s)
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Pulse Eternal
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1/19/2008 7:07:40 AM
Take it easy!!! Jeez!!
I was simply agreeing that he isn't the sharpest tack in the box! Besides being pretty damn obvious (at least I think it is obvious), it is commonly known that he isn't really the smartest guy about (he even admitted that himself) and no, I didn't get that from a conspiracy site.
Please, go back and re-read some of my posts in this blog entry. I have openly stated numerous times that I am open to both sides of the whole 911 topic and, as you'll see, I am now sitting somewhat in the middle. I asked Jeff (and others) to post any information he had backing up his opinions and he did. As I said, I do not know everything and I enjoy the fact that there's always something new to learn by taking on board what others say.
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remote_s
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1/19/2008 8:01:20 AM
hey, sp...sorry for coming across like a jerk (which, upon rereading my pre-coffee post, i clearly did). i've read the thread, and followed some of the links and read some more. as i said, i don't really care about the larger discussion going on here. but the way you phrased the statement i took issue with compelled me to post something (beyond my, hopefully, mildly funny posts yesterday).
if you had just said, "george bush isn't really very smart", well, it would have been nigh upon impossible to disagree. but what you said was: "I do know one thing..... It is a known fact that Bush has an I.Q. somewhat lower than average", which made my critical faculties stand up and say, "huh? that's interesting". so i did a simple google search for "george w. bush IQ" (no quotes used in search) to find out more about this "known fact". only to find that the only "known fact" is that there is no knowledge of his IQ score being released, and that there was a widely disseminated and roundly rejected internet hoax in 2001 that pegged his IQ at 91.
i presumed that this was what you were referring to, because i read your statement too literally, and for that i apoligize. but, i stand by my assertion that there are PLENTY of easily debunkable myths standing as facts both in this thread and elsewhere on the internets, and the willingness of folks to both a)accept them without thorough research and b)parrot them as "facts" bothers all hell out of me.
have a good day, and sorry again for using some stronger than neccessary language to make my point.
again, respectfully,
remote(s)
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Stegor
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1/19/2008 8:59:58 AM
I was trying to avoid this, but it's like a trainwreck you don't want to look, but you just can't help it.
Some of the smartest people in the world lack what some of the dumbest have: common sense. You won't find the answers to this on youtube.
For every conspiracy website there's a debunk website. I've read some of both, and thank God I have common sense, because that's all it takes to figure this out. I'm not going to post any links to the debunking sites I've read, some of which have not been mentioned here yet. You folks can all find them yourselves.
Thanks for bringing this up. I now have some of that same sick feeling in the pit of my stomach that I had on that day. It's good to feel it once in a while.
What Texas Willie said.
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Pulse Eternal
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1/19/2008 7:52:20 PM
Thanks for your input guys.
Stegor,
I've always been somewhat skeptical of our supposed leaders so it is very easy for me to automatically prefer the conspiracy side of things. In light of looking at both sides though, I am still undecided on this.
Remote,
Cheers mate. No hard feelings and I totally see your point. I guess I should've been a little less blatant with my George W statement.
FWIW, I don't place a lot of importance on I.Q. numbers anyway. There's a whole lot more to intelligence than simple I.Q. (but that's another entire blog!!)
I have no idea what GWB's I.Q. is and I really don't care. In hindsight, as you mention, it would've made much more sense for me to just say he isn't the smartest around. That's all I intended to convey.
SuperPuss
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