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Ben Elliot
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1/30/2008 1:32:16 PM
Is there such a thing as a 'Perfect Chorus'?
Choruses have been my weak point throughout my musical career. They always have been and Ive always been aware of it. I think it stems from my song writing technique. I always start with the verse and by the time I get to the chorus Im starting to run out of ideas.
In order to improve on my weakness I have tried many different things. Ive tried to come up with a catchy chorus melody first, then put the chords to it, but I seem to find that the chords are always boring and cliched. Ive tried disecting pop songs to find out why their choruses are so catchy, which I have discoved the joys of over repetition. Ive tried to apply this techniques to my own songs but they just sound over repetitive. Im starting to realise that the harder I try, the harder it becomes to judge whether the chorus has ticks in all the right boxes, and the less enjoyable the whole song writing process becomes.
So that brings me on to the title of this topic and a few other questions....
What do you thing to the choruses on my songs / How could they be improved?
What is the perfect chorus?
Why is it the perfect chorus?
Does anyone have any advise on how to write the perfect chorus?
Its a big ask for anyone to respond to all these questions but any input would be much appreciated.
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The CODE
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1/30/2008 1:34:53 PM
One of my latest chorus's goes:
Na Na Na! (to be uploaded soon!)
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Tony Vani and Debbie Hoskin
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1/30/2008 1:48:05 PM
Is there a perfect anything?
For me the chorus = the point I want to keep driving = I want it to stand apart yet blend somehow, tie the rest of the song together, the glue, what it's all about.
Not sure = I don't know the answer!
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srm
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1/30/2008 1:51:17 PM
I wish I could help you. A 'good' chorus tends to be the difference between a run-of-the-mill effort, and a 'hit'. If you ever come up with a formula that works, please share it. While there are different tastes, a repeatable chorus that grabs you and never gets old is a rare and a rich vein of gold. I think every songwriter who wants to be a success struggles to find that hook. My best advice is to try to be concise and tie the meaning of the verses with it. Perhaps try starting with a hook-y chorus, and flesh out the concept with the verses.
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THE JACK PADDLE COVER BAND
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1/30/2008 1:58:36 PM
You're never gonna be able to listen to your own music with the ears of others!!
Let that tell yer something!!
Kisses
Jack
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Stegor
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1/30/2008 6:52:28 PM
But i always try.
When it comes to questions of song structure I often consult the masters. Sometimes I go to Bowie and XTC for advice on intro/verse/bridge/chorus/verse/bridge/chorus/middle8/verse...
I like to dissect songs and make what I call "intensity charts". I get a lot of flack from the other guys about it. I divide the music into measures and create a visual color spectrum representing the timeline of the song. It helps me visualize the structure.
Some of the magic in a song goes beyond the chorus or the verse or any of it's parts, it's where the parts are and how you get from one part to another.
Probably doesn't help you much....
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Steve Ison
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1/30/2008 7:30:19 PM
"a repeatable chorus that grabs you and never gets old is a rare and a rich vein of gold"
Thats a tough one..To write a chorus that is 'catchy' but intensely annoying is extremely easy..I really could do it in my sleep..
To write one that YOU LOVE having in your head however is a totally different story and the stuff of magicians and timeless songwriters...
People have been well conditioned nowadays to embrace
the purely 'catchy' as if it was GOD decsnding
jg..
Just because people are stupid tho,dosn't make them right tho imho.....
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1/30/2008 7:50:15 PM
I just wanted add that there is such thing as a perfect chorus, the song I wrote yesterday has one. :) Maybe you'll all get to hear it within a week, full productions take me awhile.
More on the topic, I don't think grande choruses are really required. Ben, your style is more pure alternative I think, in that you can basically get away with any kind of structure you want and as long as you keep some variety in it, your songwriting skills will take care of you. There can be plenty of melodic hooks that occur with no big sing-along chorus to speak of, in fact, something like that may often seem out of place for a certain arena of song.
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Wonder
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1/30/2008 11:22:09 PM
The perfect is the enemy of the good.
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Monkey68
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1/31/2008 4:35:27 AM
The One I Love by REM.
Every member of the band has a melody going on drums, bass, guitar, vox, backing vox that is hooky and memorable.
The chorus for me is the peak energy of the song and it isn't always the main vox that carry it. Just something that propels me back and again to that peak.
There isn't perfect, there's just those moments when it comes together.
If you aren't a big chorus writer, I would say work harder at being the best of what you are - crikey, Leonard Cohen (a songwriter of some renknown) often worked without chorus - check out Suzanne - a flowing river with some eddies but no real chorus to speak of.
Final tip, if you're looking to shift energy into the chorus, I often find myself looking for an existing verse Minor to shift into a Major (or vice versa), or a semi-tone shift upwards - quick little things that just say "Bang! We're here!"
V
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GREAT CENTRAL
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1/31/2008 9:59:20 AM
whether people would feel i can write chorus' or not i couldn't say, but i reckon i can write a hook or two...
often, the way i approach somgwriting is to have quite unusual chord progressions on the verse and the keep it simple on the chorus.
i rarely write the chorus first, i think the beauty of a good chorus is the way you jump into it, so you need to know where you are coming from. you can write what seems like a good chorus, but after you come up with the verse it just goes kinda 'plop' into the chorus.
i love to write a verse and then think, where does this need to go to lift off, when you get that chord or note, it's kinda easy from then on...you know, like, if that great chord is, say, an A, you only need to play around with D or E or similar. but that's why, i feel, it is good to try something more sophisticated or intricate on the verse, also to add ying to the chorus' yang.
does that help....
if in doubt, just listen to a lot of brian wilson or jimmy webb
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Hop On Pop
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1/31/2008 10:14:31 AM
I just write. The melody comes out. Sometimes there's a big chorus. sometimes there isn't.
Usually, when the big hook comes to me first, that's as close to perfect as I get... then I write the rest of the song around it.
I would imagine that it would be the same with anybody. You really can't finesse a perfect chorus. You can't write one either. It writes itself. You just have to be lucky enough to be there at the time to catch it.
Just kinda absent-mindedly sing to yourself... that might just lure one out. If you get one, and it sticks. There you go.
I don't want to inject my own promo into this post (so I just won't post a link), but the closest I came to a perfect chorus is (twice) once in "If It's Important To You" and, again in "Suckers" --- the "na-na" part at the end.
Good luck. I hope that you catch one.
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THE JACK PADDLE COVER BAND
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1/31/2008 10:25:49 AM
Me name is Jack Paddle.....and I endorse Todd's message!!
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The CODE
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1/31/2008 11:06:29 AM
Todd - we have a Na Na Na one too!!!
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Stegor
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1/31/2008 12:30:02 PM
Well I'm gonna promo myself -
Verity
Did I do that right?
The chorus to Verity came to me in a dream. I woke up singing it and immediately got up and plucked it out on the guitar so I wouldn't forget it. I think it's a perfect chorus but I was forced to sing it in the absence of our proper singer so it's not what it should be. But it's a damn catchy sing-along! I think...
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Steve Ison
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1/31/2008 1:43:57 PM
"whether people would feel i can write chorus' or not i couldn't say"
Well good looking girls with ugly mothers has been swimming around all day, so i reckon you must be doing someting right!
Thats a great chorus for me 'cos i like it swimming round my head..Its uplifting or healing or something.It takes me to a more magical place
Forced n annoying choruses - a staple of many modern pop/rock songs- just irritate when they march uninvited into my brain.....or on the radio
Kinda like wasps i suppose
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Hugh Hamilton
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1/31/2008 2:12:06 PM
I used to like the hooky chorus to my song "I Want Pizza (Right Now!)" - which is in fact the song title - until my three year old recently started singing it about EVERYTHING she wants (right NOW!!!!!)
I'll stop by your page tomorrow and have a listen Ben. Everybody works differently I suppose, and we even work in different ways at different times. But I love the camaraderie of sharing some of the "how I work" stories - much inspiration can come that way...
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, everybody!
H
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GREAT CENTRAL
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1/31/2008 2:12:33 PM
aww, so kind, i guess if you can generate that kind of response from a listener, then for that moment in time, you have something 'perfect', until the moment passes, or your mood changes.
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Steve Ison
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1/31/2008 3:12:40 PM
"i guess if you can generate that kind of response from a listener, then for that moment in time, you have something 'perfect', until the moment passes, or your mood changes"
Yeh,i really like that de_scription..Thats definitely how it is for me.
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Ben Elliot
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1/31/2008 3:37:05 PM
Thanks everyone for your input so far. Ive made some interesting discoveries in trying to write some catchier stuff. Mainly that when I write in 4/4, the verse is generally better, and when I write in 3/4 , I generally write the chorus better. hmmmm wierd...
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Hugh Hamilton
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2/1/2008 10:05:22 AM
Hi - I'm stopping by on my way to your page - wanted to put "Can't Buy Me Love" up as an example of an exquisite chorus, and point out that (if I recall correctly) it was George Martin who so wisely suggested OPENING the song with it...
Back later, after a listen to some of your tunes...
:)
H
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Hugh Hamilton
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2/1/2008 10:17:38 AM
Geez, Ben, it didn't take much listening for me to realize it's not likely I have anything to "teach" you (lol) - nice work you've done, I like your voice a lot and you certainly shake up the arrangements and song structure well.
I don't really think in terms of "verse, chorus, bridge" etc. I just make stuff up, pretty ordinary and traditional stuff, really (and happy to be that way) and do it with as little fuss as possible.
As for what it is that makes the "Can't Buy Me Love" chorus so fab, to ME, it's an infectious hook, distinctive in sound, pleasing harmonies, and it's got a message I love as well. I'm a sucker for the 2- or 3-minute pop song, and often in that genre "less is more" in my opinion.
So I won't presume to advise you about ANYTHING other than to say KEEP ON ROCKIN' - Great Work!!
Hugh
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The Man With No Band
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2/1/2008 2:38:41 PM
Ben ... I hope you don't mind a two part answer as my 2 cents ...
Part One ...
I do not think there is such a thing as a perfect chorus ... "until it has been written into the song"
Every song has it's own form and there are many great songs that have no chorus at all ... That being said I can think of many Chorus's that are perfect for that particular song ... One example would be the Chorus in "The Boxer" by Paul Simon ... A very short repetive thing of which I never tire ...
"Lie-da-lie ...Lie-da-lie de lie-delie... Lie-da-lie... Lie-.. etc." I don't think any other Chorus could enhance this great song any more ... but that chorus would stink in something like "Stairway to Heaven" ...
Part Two ...
Please do not take this in the wrong way but I have listened to your stuff and I am simply amazed at the fact that you post a lot of post asking for advice ... In most instances you should be giving it ... It is obvious that you have the skills, the desire, the talent, the vox, access to good equipment, the youth and numerous other good things on your side that I am probably leaving off ... You said, you believe that Chorus parts are your weak point, maybe that is true and it is always good for one to recognize their weaknesses but I believe in shrugging those weaknesses off to an extent ... Otherwise one can analize themselves into a worse condition than when they started ... Make Yourself, when you are making your music ... Putting out the best sound you can is enough ... if you are constantly looking for perfection you will be sadly disappointed and it will take away from the greatness you already posess ...
After all there can be only one Pavarotti and only one Ben Elliot ... and that is the way it's supposed to be ..
Peace and good Wishes
Sam
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2/1/2008 10:49:58 PM
I believe a great chorus in a song has to do with it coming to some completion in lyrics regarding the content of the song, and musically where the melody lifts you.
I think it's always better to stay with your feelings and get out of your head.
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AlucigeniaMusic
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2/2/2008 5:45:45 AM
Why a chorus? ...i prefer songs that do not repeat the same thing so many times ...not even twice, that can make it more creative. If you feel you´ve found a way to a chorus do it, but if not, don´t force it or it may sound like a copy from another song =)
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