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Holo Lukaloa
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11/7/2009 11:06:05 PM
It's a great day for the USA. Congrats Nancy Pelosi and the House, you did good.
The amount of work that went into this was utterly amazing. Despite all the obstruction, it got done. Now hopefully the Senate can do the same and the single most difficult, yet important change in America can be reality. Affordable Health Care.
It was great watching the vote and the aftermath on C-Span. Very moving.
Also it was bi-partisan. :>)
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never never band
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11/8/2009 12:35:47 AM
---- Updated 11/8/2009 12:47:13 AM
yea, no robust public option and severe SEVERE limitations womens right to choose on abortion...
Our party just fucked us HOLO
wake up you little tool.
Taking away The Aniti Trust exemtion is about all we got.
The insurance companies just got a HUGE windfall....
This is a watered down piece of shit.
just like everything this fucking administration has brought us.
Grow a spine and DEMAND more from the administration and the legislators we worked out ass off to get in dude.
Youre so busy spouting the goddam Marching orders the Democratic Party sends to your e-mail you've forgotten what the fuck we're supposed to be doing.
We should not have Government telling us what is appropriate to demand of government.
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Holo Lukaloa
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11/8/2009 12:57:14 AM
The main difference between this public option and the one Pelosi wanted was that they use negotiated rates and not medicare rates.
It didn't really have to do with women's right to choose but rather if the government would fund abortions in the plan.
It would be great if there were no obstructionists and they could get every single thing but that's not the way the world or government works, it was an amazing achievement to get this plan thru, it's better than the one the Senate will pass if they do.
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Noah Spaceship
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11/8/2009 1:08:09 AM
the democratic party is a bunch of cowtowing cowards - wasted their votes and leverage
yellow
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Holo Lukaloa
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11/8/2009 1:58:54 AM
I think your issue is with the bluedogs, not the party. Even this plan only passed by 2 votes. It's not really far from what they were shooting for. It's not singlepayer but no way was that ever going to pass.
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The Man With No Band
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11/8/2009 9:11:14 AM
Well the thought was good ... NO ONE in any country that is above 3rd world status should be without health insurance ... absolutely NO excuse ...
... and our government will be fine ... the day you yellow bellied pawns of big business grow a pair and take our government back from them ...
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Holo Lukaloa
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11/8/2009 11:07:36 AM
Larree backs the status quo and profit-crazed insurance companies.
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Holo Lukaloa
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11/8/2009 11:57:04 AM
That you don't think health care needs to be fixed is insane.
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Holo Lukaloa
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11/8/2009 12:29:00 PM
Yes and you are hoping the insurance companies and private businesses fix it. :>D
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LyinDan
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11/8/2009 12:48:09 PM
It only looks practical to do this in nibbles. This is the first nibble, and I applaud BO for getting it this far. After we have SOMETHING, then it'll be time to nibble away at the obvious deficiencies.
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Bruce Lee
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11/8/2009 3:28:30 PM
the us postal system works fine
government red tape clogs the workings of the small business guy and it sucks, BUT it wouldn't have to be there if big corps could operate fairly and honestly.
government has to regulate those who wont regulate themselves.
big insurance made their bed and when the little guy rises up, big ins will get what they got coming.
i applaude BO too, he has turned that stagnant pool on capitol hill into a bustling brook. those old farts need to be challenged. And BO is getting shit done despite the opposition. He could get more done if he quit trying to please everybody and simply does what he knows he was put there to do.
..The dems as a whole, however, really need to grow spines, most of them are too soft.
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Kevin White
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11/8/2009 3:58:03 PM
It wasn't like health care wasn't broken all the years Republicans were in power, so Dan is correct in that at least the Dems did SOMETHING ... but this is where NNB has it spot on.
Consider:
> Insurance companies have been given mandates for coverage, but absolutely no caps on what they can charge. Plan on seeing some increases. That just means more money for insurance companies. They'll explain why they have to charge so much, trust that.
> MILLIONS UPON MILLIONS of people who weren't insured before must now go buy insurance. Why would somebody not voluntarily buy insurance? To a large degree, that pool is young and healthy and choose not to buy it because they didn't feel they needed to. Now they're being forced to. Who benefits from millions and millions of new healthy premium paying customers? You got it.
> They closed the Medicare doughnut hole. Big whoop. They had to do that anyways because it was unfair ... but they also reduced payments through medicare ... all the while leaving medigap untouched. Who sells medigap insurance??? You got it.
Yes, this bill was tailor made for insurance companies. Don't convince yourself otherwise ... don't think they didn't see it coming and weren't prepared. They were. This is what they wanted.
Kev
Insurance professional for 25 years ...
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Kevin White
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11/8/2009 4:03:19 PM
Also ...
Another reason this bill sucks is that it did NOTHING to address the cost of the system.
... and as is, it would overburden the country w/ cost run amok.
The Democrats didn't craft a bill that made sense, they crafted an expedient bill. They should have included Republican common sense initiatives into the bill. That would have brought more Republicans on board to support.
They still need to undock provisioning of policies from employers so that individuals can purchase their own policies to have the freedom to move easily from job to job with the coverage levels THEY chose for themselves ... and not have the job define their health coverage situation.
Also, tort reform is overdue.
The house bill solves nothing and creates bloat beyond belief.
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Kevin White
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11/8/2009 4:04:28 PM
In a bill that does nothing except drive up costs.
"Affordable Health Care" ... as a name ... is black irony.
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LyinDan
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11/8/2009 5:53:16 PM
You bet there's a lot of work to be done to make this equitable, a lot of work.
Until there's a general uprising in the populace against the right target - big corps - there's slim chance of getting anything done wholesale, though. These guys have the bucks to finance the propaganda that everything is really just peachy, all the peeps have to do is let them handle it. Fuck government controls on ANYTHING, they just want to fuck you. Right? Yeah, right. The portion of government that really wants to fuck you is corporate controlled...so the proper target is the fucking, goddamned, bastards who run those corps (and the corporate form that let's them get away with it, almost unhindered).
Until there's a general revolt against corps, the best that be done is subversion - get a platform in place that can end up fucking the greedy fucking corps. Hell, ANY wedge will do to start. That's what we have here.
Now, I'm not ranting from self-interest here (except for the satisfaction of knowing I'll be shown to be right), the whole process will almost certainly be too late for me. It's for you young whippersnappers.
Why do you think the insurance corps are so vehemently against this bill when it will clearly benefit them in the short run? Because they are looking at the long run picture, and so am I, and that is why I support this piece of shit bill.
In the meantime, everyone should do everything they can to support decent Demo candidates in the next primaries. The fucking idiot Repubes are a lost cause. Support Demos who aren't beholden to entrenched corporate interests. It's your only hope.
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LyinDan
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11/8/2009 6:00:10 PM
Oh, yeah, and...
Kev, getting Repubes on board with ANYTHING Obama wants is totally undoable. To wait for that is to not accomplish a goddam thing for the next 8 years. Let's not do that. Let's ram em up the ass, which is all they want to do with anything Obama-like.
And you, you weak-minded Libertarians. You're fucking crazy. Get government off your backs? It's your Corporate masters who are on your back. Freedom? Not from them. The Corps have more power currently than your gridlocked national government. Give them more?
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Kevin White
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11/8/2009 8:13:19 PM
---- Updated 11/8/2009 8:15:35 PM
Wrong. Unregulated, private sector in healthcare is a proven failure.
... and I lean conservative. But I recognize cluster fuck when I see it's been happening for years.
Certain shit doesn't belong together.
It's like letting every private company build a toll booth at the end of your street. Sure, it's private industry ... no, they don't belong there.
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Kevin White
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11/8/2009 8:34:46 PM
---- Updated 11/8/2009 8:35:30 PM
Democrats and Republicans have very little ideological differences these days outside of "how do I get/keep elected" for party's sake. Not public: Party.
That's it as is in politic today.
See: The one freshman Republican from New Orleans that voted for the house bill ... that got a "by" because his party forgave his non-compliance due to his "election situation." Trust that it wasn't due to his "principles". That never enters into politics U.S. of Today.
How sad is that in the U.S. of Assholes?
Trust Democrats? Why? They're exactly the same with different press.
Principles aren't involved there. That's how it's sold for election purposes. That is the state of politics in the U.S. of Today.
Have a problem w/ the dynamic? Support taking money out of process. Unless that's removed ... well, money speaks louder than anything else.
Yes, people are easily convinced. No, this is a piece of shit bill that is better not passed than passed. It's an insurance company compromise ... and it's being sold as something when it's nothing but a piece of shit nothing that does nothing except expand costs and line insurance company profits.
How can anyone think that's a good thing? That's not reform. That's expansion of status quo.
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Kevin White
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11/8/2009 8:43:19 PM
D: I'm ALL for reform. I'm ALL for doing something.
THIS: Ain't reform.
DEMAND: Reform.
Yell loud.
Who said Democracy was perfect? Democracy will always be a work in progress. It's not working these days. Look to root that silences all other voices.
Then one must identify the problem and deal with correcting it.
Money has been granted a by due to the "freedom of speech" argument ... but I don't think that's right.
If all are created equal in voice, why has it been codified that some have more equal voice than others? That's un-American ... and yet ... one of the hardest issues to reverse ... because it's a fight against money, not what's right.
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LyinDan
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11/8/2009 9:31:05 PM
Here's how I envision this thing. And I hope to God I'm close, because if it IS what it looks like, we're fucked. So, I'm hoping it's not what it appears to be and there's an ulterior plan.
First off, given adamant Republican and Blue Dog entrenchment, there's just not going to be a radical plan being passed. Not gonna happen. Too much money invested, etc. So, you pass something, anything. If you can shove it through both houses on narrow votes and get it into law, that's the first step. Next, the hue and cry arises as various groups wake up to what a piece of crap this is. That provides the impetus to start amending it. Amend the crap out of it until it's workable and just. step on Republicans and Blue Dogs who you can position to appear the obstinate and bought turds that they are. If passed at all, the nation is stuck with change - it's not going to be repealed before it's enacted, that would be too terrible politically to ever happen. But it can be sliced and diced before it's in gear. This is the way it's going to have to happen.
If it's not passed, we're royally screwed, look what happened after the Clinton debacle.
Do something, anything, but do it now. Then fix it. That's the only way this plodding travesty of an American health system is ever going to get a good shake up.
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LyinDan
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11/8/2009 9:36:07 PM
Oh, and why Demos? Because they have a very great interest in making this work, whereas the Repubes have an enormous interest in making it not work. It's not that the Democrats are geniuses, it's that it's their plan, it's they who are in motion forward (well, ok...at a tangent, but still...) If there was some weeding of obstructionists done there, there would be a much greater chance of having something better really happen.
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Frylock
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11/8/2009 11:00:07 PM
Thanks everyone for interesting conversation with several takes on this issue. It makes for interesting reading but of course it's all moot, as the Senate will never pass anything like this.
The embarrassing razor-thin House vote of 220 votes to 215 came at great cost of political capital - any the President had remaining is now spent, and for what...the worst kind of Pyrrhic victory - with the full political cost still to be realized in November 2010.
Amazing, the wisdom of the founding fathers, who created the Senate as the more deliberative body, a check upon the rashness of the House. Granted, the filibuster is a rule adopted by the Senate itself, but it is of long standing and time-honored - and it fits well with the Senate's constitutional role.
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Holo Lukaloa
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11/8/2009 11:05:21 PM
I don't know if endless gridlock about a worthless health care system in the status quo is a display of the founding fathers' wisdom, really.
Anyway the Senate won't be voting on the same bill, but their own. I happen to think they will pass something close to what Reid is offering now, though, and you, Frylock, will have to admit you were wrong then.
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Frylock
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11/8/2009 11:43:50 PM
I know they'll be voting on their own bill, and you you know I know, so cut the crap. I said "the Senate will never pass anything like this". I'll be proven right. There aren't anywhere near 60 votes for the bill in its current form. What ultimately comes out of there will have no public option (and none of the various public-option-by-another-name schemes, either), that's for sure. The conference committee should have fun trying to reconcile the two bills...
I'm interested in your position on the wisdom of the Founders, though. I guess it is really no surprise, but I am surprised that you would publicly admit it.
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Holo Lukaloa
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11/9/2009 12:21:13 AM
Generally I don't have any big qualms with the founding fathers, but you seem so happy and anxious for more Republicans to be in congress so there's a far less chance for any progress to be made on issues like health care. The way you seem to want Obama and the Dems to fail indicates that you think gridlock is a good thing.
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Kevin White
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11/9/2009 9:01:19 AM
What we're witnessing is partisan politic on display.
Why did only one Republican vote for the bill? To get reelected. It wasn't deep belief in the bill.
So why did all the Democrats defect? Because this bill sucks and they didn't want their name associated with it. It's doesn't do anything except bloat costs. It's not reform. It's a pig of a bill, and just because they are dressing it up doesn't make it less a pig.
Why did it pass? They had enough people's arm twisted, and enough numbers on the left who felt like Dan does ... "Well, at least it's SOMETHING, and we can get it passed."
I would have rather have seen them reach across the aisle and grab a few Republican ideas. THEN you would have had a bill that Republicans might have been able to vote for ... but not this one. No way.
Still ... even if the Democrat leadership allowed a Republican presence on the bill, anyone think that Republicans would have flocked to vote? Nope.
Know why? Because in stupid ass partisan politics, the bill wasn't as important as snubbing anything Obama or Democrat.
Stupid Republicans.
Stupid Democrats.
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justjessie
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11/9/2009 4:48:33 PM
I like your take on it Kevin and I agree. Even the democrats couldn't keep a strait face when they called it a "bipartisan" vote. I watched the footage. Did you see all of them up there laughing? Damn I wish I could find a clip...
Here's the problem I have with this bill... It exists! We have health care programs here in the United States that don't work already. I think our money, time and effort would have been better spent trying to fix the programs that we have. The republicans had ideas that were good that nobody was willing to even look at. That's the problem. Republicans and Democrats completely refuse to work together and trade ideas. It's stupid. They are so in competition that they seem to forget the big picture.
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LyinDan
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11/9/2009 7:11:09 PM
We seriously need to scrap the whole damn thing and start over.
Do you know where and why health insurance started? Google it.
It's nothing but a bunch of capitalist pigs (and I mean that in the most loving way...there's nothing wrong with pigs...I just don't want them hogging my trough) getting a piece of the action, contributing absolutely nothing that they're not forced to. They are leeches, making a living from what amounts to a protection racket sanctified by The Free Market (something they have no part in) ideal (which isn't).
Don't feel too smug with your 'good health insurance' (something I'll bet will fail you in any real emergency where-in you're actually going to cost them something). Marie Antoinette was pretty smug, too, and look what happened.
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Holo Lukaloa
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11/9/2009 7:37:04 PM
It's real easy to be cynical about this or write it off as a fiasco but at very least, insurance companies won't be able to turn down anyone anymore for preexisting conditions. For that alone it's worthwhile.
This was a very difficult thing and those working for it have great intentions, it's going to be huge in the long haul if it all passes, even watered down some.
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LyinDan
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11/9/2009 7:43:46 PM
After six decades+ of viewing life, I'm extremely cynical...experience teaches, eventually. And yet, life in general generates negative entropy...that's observable, even in the short terms, and certainly in long terms. That keeps me going. Baby steps.
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Kevin White
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11/9/2009 8:05:16 PM
---- Updated 11/9/2009 8:07:51 PM
Jeez LD,
Your contextual references are what I would have used.
You understand the historical strange that has led to the current crisis.
Yet: It's a societal challenge that encompasses multiple industries: Medical, Legal, Insurance, Education.
I call it a 4 legged stool. The interplay of the legs increases the height of the platform of cost.
One need only understand each legs interplay w/ others to reduce the height of the platform ...
Education starts the up spiral: Who trains doctors? Doctors. With teachers with such specialized skillz and large income expectations ... what is the startup cost for newbies? HUGE. This must be solved.
So they enter business currently w/ huge debt ... and like newly minted 16 year old car drivers, what do you think the cost of their errors and omissions coverage (a.k.a. malpractice insurance) is? Let's just say = more cost to them = more cost to everyone. Solution = balanced tort reform = restrict frivolous shit from "shit happens" lawsuits = lower cost.
Next up the rung is Medical itself ... and these hard working folks can't escape their milking the mother's teet of insurance ... and milk they do ... for it is the teet that provides.
THE LARGEST IMPACT ON THE HEALTH SYSTEM IN AMERICA IS THE SHRAPNEL IMPACT OF CAPITALIST INSURANCE IN AMERICA. In health care, it's wrong ... because it conveniently finances/greases the cost of the system ... driving up cost to its own benefit ... and reduces coverage to its own benefit.
Thus making it not about medical, so much as insurance. Where is that right?
Leaving the most current important thing: Insurance.
Insurance IN MY NOT SO HUMBLE OPINION ... belongs completely out of the health care equation.
It totally fucks it up. Profit, not healthcare, takes kingship.
Why politic even considers it is as a concern only more evidences as to how fucked up the premise of the whole system is.
Insurance is first place ... It should run a distant 6th.
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Kevin White
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11/9/2009 8:13:00 PM
Let me boil that big ass post down to this:
Insurance facilitates the bloat of cost in the system.
Everywhere ... because "IT PAYS AND COLLECTS A PROFIT FOR IT" doctors ... lawyers ... drug companies ...
All the while ...
They ration coverage. They do everything that is wrong about health care.
They don't belong for they've not interest in people ... only profit.
... AND THAT ...
Is the bottom line.
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justjessie
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11/10/2009 8:49:09 AM
Hmm, not sure I understand Kevin... The insurance companies are bad because they are out to make a profit?
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Kevin White
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11/10/2009 9:52:53 AM
---- Updated 11/10/2009 10:12:59 AM
No Jesse,
They're where they don't rightly belong, yet they have inserted themselves for profit.
At the basis of the concept of profit, lies the premise which directly conflicts with healthcare.
Insurance is not interested so much in public health as they are in private profit.
Why do insurance companies second guess doctors in appropriate care and/or force cheaper medications on patients over doctor's advice?
Why were there revolving door mastectomies?
Why are accountants and clerics making ANY medical care decisions?
Because decisions of care are profit driven, not patient driven.
Insurance doesn't belong in basic health care. The government can do it better when profit is eliminated and rates of health care are regulated.
Talk about controlling costs? The government can do it better than private industry.
I'm a fiscal conservative ... and this is just the right way to do it. Remove the inherent conflict of profit in the equation AND set regulated rates, standards of care, and administrative uniformity.
Know why health care works in other countries? Insurance is an adjunct ... an enhancement - and it's NOT the main player.
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Kevin White
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11/10/2009 10:04:20 AM
Think of it this way:
If someone gets sick, they don't need worry about anything. They don't have to consult or notify their insurance before they do anything. They go get care and try to get healthy. No forms. No fuss. No muss. No worries.
The government provides for public health when serious sickness is involved. It's the backstop when you get seriously ill ... providing coverage at the catastrophic level w/o concern for profit, only proper care.
It's provided for every citizen, regardless of employment.
If you're seriously sick, you're covered.
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Kevin White
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11/10/2009 10:10:45 AM
Meanwhile ... back at the insurance game.
Want some non-essential "niceties" like "well-care visits", and other perks ... like being able to go to the doctor and have it covered when you get a cold?
Insurance can package a comprehensive bundle that employers can offer as job enticement ... or individuals can buy on their own that expands the basic coverage offered by the non-profit program.
It puts insurance back in the position of working hard for the business, providing non-core coverage to individuals, and forcing them to place service at the heart of their equation again.
Yes, profit is involved ... but if coverage is denied ...
It doesn't mean Dad just isn't going to get that transplant. It means Dad shouldn't have gone to have his toenails clipped.
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justjessie
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11/10/2009 10:11:25 AM
I am with you as far as the insurance companies questioning the doctors. But as for government running it better... not so much. I think the government could do better by doing things like... tort reform. that is something they can put their hands in and I don't mind so much. I think the insurance companies take advantage because there are too few of them and so many of us. It's a supply and demand issue. Kind of like your electric company. They can charge what they want because you can't go to anyone else for the service. Eliminate that and eliminate the insurance companies having the upper hand.
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Kevin White
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11/10/2009 10:14:57 AM
---- Updated 11/10/2009 10:23:18 AM
Agreed on the tort reform
Disagreed on allowing insurance companies to make ANY decisions that get in the way of doctors.
THAT MEANS taking them out of the equation at that level.
BTW: Competition in health care is a big insurance company lie, promoted to get Republicans stomping behind them.
Capitalism itself leads to health care oligopolies ... where just a few companies control about everything. There is no competition, there's only profiteering.
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justjessie
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11/10/2009 10:29:41 AM
I don't think that insurance companies should be allowed to get in the way of the doctors. I think doctors should be able to do what they need to do to save their patients. But I also don't think doctors should be allowed to jack up prices and do silly shit because the insurance company is paying.
For example:
I went to the doctor last May, very ill... I had insurance, but couldn't find my card. Rather than doing tests and finding out what was wrong with me, they told me that I wasn't sick, but that I had "symptoms". They gave me two prescriptions for my symptoms and sent me home. Good news is, it was some kind of virus probably that ran it's course and I was more comfortable because I had the medication to keep me comfortable while I waited. And my doctor bill, before I submitted it to my insurance was $157.00. Had I had my insurance card though, they would have done more and billed my insurance and my portion, you can bet, would've been much more than $157.00. Remember, this was in the very beginning of the swine flu and I had a high fever and other obvious flu symptoms. So who's the bad guy here? The doctor who did the bare minimum because I couldn't find my insurance card? Or is he the good guy for saving the patient money?
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The Man With No Band
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11/10/2009 1:24:11 PM
---- Updated 11/10/2009 1:26:59 PM
Kev definitely has this right IMO ... I stated earlier no one here should be without insurance ... but I made that statement because the way the system is set up ... insurance is required ... and as Kev points out ... THAT is absolutely wrong ...
The term "Socialized medicine" scares a lot of people ... but those same people are O.K. with this huge coercion between corrupt corporations running this huge extortion scam ...
... and just as an example of an opposite of Jessie's story ... Almost my whole family just went through the Swine Flu or H1N1 ... Two of my daughters have insurance ... and between them they have six kids that had the flu ... The doctors informed us that each test for swine flu cost about $600.00 ... They also told us it made no sense to run the test on ALL of us ... Being we all had the same symptoms, it was obvious that we ALL had the same flu ...
Now the doctor and the hospital could have collected a pretty good chunk of money from the insurance by testing the whole family ... but they did the right thing ... they told us it was up to us but it was probably an unnecessary expense to have everyone tested...
but most places they CAN'T do that ... because if one person had something else wrong, then they risked being sued for malpractice ...
Hospitals and doctors are not free of being part of the problem ... but that part pales in comparison to the insurance companies role in this fiasco that let's people die because they don't have insurance ... It's a major racket ... and like most corporate entities in this country they need to be dissolved ...
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Kevin White
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11/10/2009 1:35:41 PM
---- Updated 11/10/2009 1:40:31 PM
You missed part of what I said above, Jess.
Insurance doesn't belong in basic health care. The government can do it better when profit is eliminated and rates of health care are regulated.
Talk about controlling costs? The government can do it better than private industry.
That means the government sets what doctors will receive for certain procedures based on location.
This is not a new concept.
We just call it Medicare/Medicaid.
Here's the insurance equivalent recently received on a lab test:
Initial charge: $760
W/ insurance discount: $19
Know why? Doctors charge high because some insurance companies pay it. How's that saving anyone any real money? It just creates a rigged game.
Insurance needs to vacate that game. They're a roadblock on the path to fair, low cost, equitable healthcare.
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justjessie
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11/10/2009 1:49:29 PM
Except for that Medicare/Medicaid are very slow to pay the doctors and lots of doctors won't take Medicare/Medicaid patients. I think we are actually arguing the same point. There are more issues with the healthcare system than just the insurance companies. I think the government needs to set limits but not take over.
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Kevin White
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11/10/2009 3:31:25 PM
If it becomes law that they can't refuse, then they've little choice.
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justjessie
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11/10/2009 5:43:27 PM
and then there's that...
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Helen McCall
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11/27/2009 12:29:21 PM
Just wondering if you live in America?
You probably aren't a small business owner!
What do you think is going to happen when these small businessmen/women
who hire contract workers/part-timers etc and can't afford to buy insurence for them?
They are going to be fined $ 25,000.00 per employee, wake up America, they can't pay this but if they don't, they will go to jail, also the employee is fined and most are barely making ends meet, so they have to do the same as the employer or go to jail. 3/4 of Americans are going to be sitting on their cans in jail. Realize the public option is not free, they just want you to think that.
Even the seniors have to pay for their Medicare, we don't get it free. If you take $120.00 for medicare and $40.00 for part D, that's $160.00 out of their checks right off the bat plus they have to pay 20% co-pay, most seniors make about (at least in the south) $800.00 per month , some less, which is considered above poverty so you don't get any extra help.
Could you live of $800.00 per per month, I dare say you can't. Get real man.
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The Man With No Band
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11/27/2009 1:00:30 PM
"Could you live of $800.00 per per month, I dare say you can't."
Would you like to make a wager on that ?
... and your claims about small business having to insure their workers or going to jail is just plain wrong ...
Must belong to the scare monger party ... sigh
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Kevin White
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11/27/2009 6:56:57 PM
Yep ... the John Deere party ... spreading more manure.
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LyinDan
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11/27/2009 8:27:21 PM
Helen...have you discovered Paxil yet? Please do.
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