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Vincenzo Pandolfi
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6/26/2008 1:37:24 AM
My first guitar
Well, as some of you might know by now, I don't play guitar, just keyboards. I used to carry my L120 hammond around with my band. Talk about sharing the load. As much as I would have liked a B3, we were not big enough to have slaves carry our gear for us...so mine was heavy enough at appx 150 kilos. Anyway las year my daughter found an old Suzuki guitar in the trash. It still had all the strings on it. She took it home (She lives next door) but nobody play the guitar in her house. when I saw the guitar again it only had three stings left, I think the cat or something got to it and she was going to put it out in the trash again, so I took it home. I have bought new strings for it, and decided that I am going to try and teach myself the guitar.
I have a number of books etc. The first thing I did was to learn how to tune the guitar on itself. I do find however that some of the chords at times are not completely in tune. Is that due to my poor fingering and is this normal for beginners, or is there something really wrong with this old guitar. The neck is perfectly straight, and the keys are fine.
Any advice or help would be wonderful, as I am going on a long journey, and I am planning to take the guitar with me and practice every day on it.
Vincenzo (Hopefully a future troubadour)...assuming I live long enough....
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srm
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6/26/2008 2:24:30 AM
It's possible that the 'action' is a bit high. If the strings are too high off the fretboard, fretting a string will make it go sharp because the string tension is changing too much. It never hurts to take it to a local music store, and have them take a look at it and reset the bridge, if necessary. If the neck isn't bowed, that's the only thing I can think of. Good luck on picking up a new instrument. I suspect that you'll do well.
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Vincenzo Pandolfi
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6/26/2008 5:38:27 AM
Thanks srm,
The action does not look too high, so may be is just me, or may be when they restrung it they only replace the strings that were missing, and the old ones may be very old. Would old strings cause problems??
Vincenzo
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srm
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6/26/2008 5:48:24 AM
---- Updated 6/26/2008 6:28:51 AM
It would definitely help, to get a full set of 'fresh' strings. I know that old strings tend to be dull-sounding, and may sound flat, in contrast with newer strings on the same instrument. At any rate, especially with a second-hand instrument, it's a good idea to have it looked at by someone who's familiar with how they should be set up, etc. It's also possible that the instrument might have some inherent flaw, that makes it out of tune- particularly if it's a less expensive or 'student' model. Does the tuning sound worse, as you go up the neck?
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My-T-Hi
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6/26/2008 7:02:36 AM
New strings is a good idea. I'd recomend getting a guitar tuner too. They're pretty cheap these days, and are very acurate. Better than most human ears, even pretty well trained ones. No need to get an expensive one to start off with, almost all I've seen are really acurate. And any guitar always sound better when it's tuned well.
Good luck with your guitar.... it can be a really good friend on long journeys.
Cheers
Moray
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Vincenzo Pandolfi
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6/26/2008 4:26:10 PM
Thanks srm and My-Hi-Ti,
Yes I think that the tuning does worsen as you go up the neck, but I don't really know what I am doing. At the moment I just want something I can learn on, then in a few months get something half decent. Any recommendations??
Vincenzo
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LyinDan
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6/26/2008 6:29:54 PM
---- Updated 6/26/2008 6:32:20 PM
Yes, get new strings first. Old strings give false notes.
If it sounds worse going up the neck, the intonation is out (needs a bridge adjustment or relocation).
I'm taking it this is an acoustic guitar, not an electric?
Does the bridge appear to be moved from it's original location? the bridge is the wood piece that the strings rest on on the bowl of the guitar ( the hollow part). Sometimes this is not glued or well glued, and can shift about. Is the bridge a solid wood piece or do the strings rest on a piece which is raised by metal rods?
Can you read the model # of this guitar, usually a sticker inside the hollow part, visible through the f hole or round opening in the center. That would help us to know what you have and the potential problems with it.
Of course, there's also playing technique. Beginners frequently stretch the strings they hold down behind the fret, resulting in stretched, incorrect notes. Try to practice holding down the strings in the same spacing as the strings are in when open (unfretted).
Also, if this is a very cheap guitar, that can be very frustrating if it's not built correctly in the first place. It's a conundrum that it's easier to learn on a really good guitar (= more money). An acoustic instrument is particularly sensitive to this. A bad guitar can make you give up easily.
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LyinDan
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6/26/2008 6:30:14 PM
---- Updated 6/26/2008 6:33:28 PM
Can you possibly post my post the first time so I'm not tempted to try again?
Thanks! (:D)
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Vincenzo Pandolfi
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6/26/2008 7:25:04 PM
Thanks LynDan,
The guitar is an acoustic suzuki, unfortunately there is no readable model number where it should be. The label is there but there is no number. It may have faded away, or it was never there to begin with.
I think it had a problem with the bridge, because I can see that someone has added a couple of screws and nuts, as it may have started to pull away at some stage.
I agree that it would be far better to learn on a good instrument and I will if I can see that I am making some progress
Thanks again guys,
Vincenzo
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BJ
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6/26/2008 9:24:14 PM
---- Updated 6/26/2008 9:24:14 PM
If the guitar is a Suzuki I'm assuming it's probably a gut string model. A very high proportion of student guitars are Suzukis. If someone has added screws to the bridge it's very likely that steel strings were placed on the instrument at some stage. It was never designed to take this sort of tension and the bracing (such as it is) has probably been damaged irreparably.
The good news however is that because they are such a popular learners guitar you can often get a similar instrument in good condition through the classifieds or your local Cash Converters for $50 or so. Take someone with you who knows about guitars to check it out and you will get a perfectly good learners (and party/campfire) instrument.
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Beth Fridinger
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6/26/2008 11:49:11 PM
The intonation could be off. One thing to do is, if you find the strings are in tune, then hit the 12 fret and play the note on each string, and check that that note is exactly one octave higher....do this on each string. Check the individual notes at different parts of the neck to see if the guitar can be in tune. Sometimes an adjustment of the truss rod can fix the guitar. I found a great guitar tech who works at home and doesn't charge a fortune...nice guy who does pretty good work...guitar stores charge more money. If you adjust the truss rod yourself I was told you turn it very little and give it time to settle in, but if you don't know what you are doing, it might be better to have someone who knows how to adjust the truss rod. You could use a guitar tuner or check it with your keyboard notes....you could get a tuner for $10 or $15....I use a tuner but I also tune by ear with the guitar to itself. If the chords don't sound right it could very well be uneven or wrong pressure of your fingers; it takes time to train your fingers to form the chords to get a good clean sound.
When I was in Ecuador last year I bought a small size guitar for $25....so I had something to play down there. The intonation on this is not perfect..it is a little bit off...there is no truss rod...but I had fun being able to play while I was down there.
Acoustic guitars are sensitive to dry air and humidity...if the air is dry the wood can crack...necks can twist or dip...
I have seen some decent guitars for sale for under $100, like $50, on Craigs List. Yamaha makes excellent guitars. I don't know anything about Suzuki guitars.
If you just put new strings on it, it won't stay in tune very well...it's good to stretch each string by gently pulling on it, then retuning, and doing this 3 or 4 times whenever you put new strings on it. So that could be your problem also.
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Conversation Suicide
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6/27/2008 12:24:28 AM
Somebody may have said something similiar, but when it's exhibiting problems like that as you use different notes on different frets; assuming you already PROVED a problem by using BETH's methodology listed ABOVE -- you should simply get a NEW VERY cheap acoustic guitar (even the same student/entry level suzuki or Yamaha guitar - like a couple of folks suggested). I've been looking for a replacement BASS acoustic guitar, for the same reasons you've been experiencing on this guitar of yours. The tech(s) I took it to said when it's THAT messed up (truss rod and all, as BETH mentioned), then it really makes more sense just to get a replacement. And PROBABLY cheaper or about the same cost as repairing the existing one. -phlegm
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Vincenzo Pandolfi
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6/27/2008 12:36:26 AM
Thanks Beth & BJ,
I have learned a lot just from this blog...
There is no rod to adjust, I will try stretching the strings a little as Beth said. I would say that BJ is right about the guitar having been damaged by the wrong strings.
Anyway It will do me to start, just getting used to my fingers on the fretboard etc. I take my hat off to you guitarists, I think the keyboard is a lot easier to learn!! At least in the beginning, but I am not giving up!! I think that the guitar is one of the most beautiful instruments in the world.
Ciao,
Vincenzo
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Hugh Hamilton
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6/29/2008 6:23:09 PM
I wish I could advise you in a meaningful way from afar, Vincenzo, but I'm afraid I'm incompetent in that regard. I will say, though, that I spent my first ten years of guitar playing with a very difficult-to-play nylon string acoustic guitar; I even quit for a year or two after an initial burst of activity because I couldn't manage the "F" chord...ultimately, wrestling with that guitar made me a more competent player, but I think I had a lot of wasted time trying to accomplish the "near-impossible". I'd encourage anybody starting off on any instrument to invest in a decent one. It's hard enough to learn without having to overcome the limitations of a poor instrument. And a "decent" instrument should come close to holding its value, so if you ultimately decide to sell you can consider yourself having paid a modest rental fee.
Hugo's "two cents"...
:)
H
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Bruce Boyd
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6/29/2008 7:23:59 PM
Hugo, my son has just been doing some recording in my studio with his brand new Maton electric guitar (which I might blog about soon). He's been studying classical guitar now for 14 years - and always had competent instruments (including a Suzuki some years back).
The crux of this story is...while recording one track he kept muffing an "F" chord too!
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LyinDan
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6/29/2008 8:23:46 PM
f-ing chords!
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JOHN FRY
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6/29/2008 9:55:43 PM
I learned guitar on a high action set up. You will hate yourself and the guitar. First time I played on a low action guitar, i realized this is what it's all about.
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My-T-Hi
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6/30/2008 6:09:16 AM
High action is no fun, unless you go for playing bottle neck. The first guitar I had, had a very high action, so I made a lower bridge for it...from meccano... sounded thin, but was easier and more fun to play than before.
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Vincenzo Pandolfi
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6/30/2008 3:09:08 PM
Thanks everybody for all your advice. You have helped me a lot!! Fortunately I don't think that the action on this guitar is high, is just that at some point someone put the incorrect strings on it which caused some permanent damage.
I will let you know how I go, once I have learned a few chords. If it's no good I will buy something reasonable, after all this one cost me $0.00.
I am going to be traveling for a while, with scant access to the internet (about 3 months), but I will try to keep you posted from time to time as to where I am and how I am doing with my attempt at learning guitar. I am comforted by the fact that not too many people found it easy!!
Arrivederci!!
Vincenzo
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JOHN FRY
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6/30/2008 3:30:35 PM
Let me warn you Vincenzo, after 3 weeks with the guitar, you will have an uncontrollable urge to play SMOKE ON THE WATER, AND TRAIN KEPT A ROLLIN. Don't try to fight it. Your powerless. Just let it happen. You'll get through it my friend. We all have.
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Hugh Hamilton
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6/30/2008 3:54:37 PM
hahaha - John's right...
3 months of travel with scant internet access??? WTF??? Do tell?!?!
:)
H
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Bruce Boyd
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6/30/2008 5:23:03 PM
If you happen to be heading west across the Nullabor during your travels Vincenzo be sure to let me know.
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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6/30/2008 6:42:43 PM
Vincenzo
these guys have said it all----nylon strings for sure
check the harmonics as beth said by pinging on the frets where the dots are-----if they are out it will need a new bridge( by the sound of the condition of the old one)
you can still play notes though!!
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Beth Fridinger
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6/30/2008 10:15:15 PM
The guitar is not that hard to learn....just don't try to read notes...just play chords....and when you get to learning bar chords start learning notes on the 5th and sixth string (and first) and learn 3 or 4 chords say in the key of G, I, IV, V, V7, VIm, and play simple songs...The piano is laid out much easier....Now the guitar...you just have to train your fingers....you want to hold the guitar so the neck goes out forward a little bit so your left arm has more room...It is so much fun...so I hope you don't give up! And remember, you can always buy a good used instrument, Yamaha or Ibanez are always good....craigslist is a good place...I got my mandolin on craigs list used...I LOVE it...play it all the time...it was almost new, and an inexpensive Rogue brand...but I don't recommend Rogue guitars...action is high on those...Yamahas are nice...my first electric guitar was a Yamaha...I did buy that one new, and it's nice. I bought a used Ibanez bass that goes for $300 new for $125....I love that too!! It plays real well and records beautifully! I bought my Alvarez model 5552 guitar in the late 80s for $150 used...they now go for $200...this guitar is beautiful and sounds great....It's really nice....If I get a second instrument I might get a Yamaha or Ibanez used....you can get one for $50 to $100 used....if you decide to do that, take someone with you who knows what to look for. You have to look closely at teh guitar for any cracks or problems...check that the neck is straight, check the note on the 12th fret that it rings exactly 1 octave above the open string. If the strings are old on the guitar you need to put new ones on...that can be difficult on an acoustic....maybe a friend can show you how to do that.
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Vincenzo Pandolfi
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7/1/2008 1:30:20 AM
Thanks John,
I already have the urge to play Smoke On The Water every time I see a keyboard. On the guitar, that probably won’t happen until I have a Stratocaster with twin box Marshall amp!!
Hugh, my wife and I are taking a long holiday. You know one of those things you do when you are getting old. (On a ship) You won’t have to do one for a long while yet!!
Bruce, I am not going across the Nullabor this time, but If I ever do I will let you know. If you are ever in Sydney, drop in for a cold home brew!!
Silverwood Studio & Beth, I will keep you informed. I think I will follow your advice Beth and stick to chords for the time being, but I won’t be happy until I can play melodies and chords etc. I might be really old then!!
Ciao,
Vincenzo
P.S. I am not going for a few more days yet…
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the kozy king
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7/1/2008 4:43:09 AM
V:
You must already have a good understanding of music so it shouldn't be too hard to have some good creative fun with a guitar.
The Al DiMeola Guide to Chords, Scales and Arpeggios recommends working on all three every day as well as chords progressions, modes and songs. most books are great and you get out what you put in. God-given talent doesn't hurt either :-)
And don't forget -- the bottom four strings of the guitar arethe same as a bass guitar so you will be able to play some rudimentary bass as soon as you learn the notes on the fret board.
Re: Bruce Boyd's on Maton guitars. He mentions Eko guitars to you. Here's a link to
a site dedicated to Italian guitars of the past. You can see a couple I used to own under "Elli-Sound 6" (by Crucianelli) and JG Honeyburst Archtop (by Zerosette).
http://www.fetishguitars.com/html/zerosette/jg_terry.html
http://www.fetishguitars.com/html/crucianelli/varie/ellisound_terry.html
Happy fretting!
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Bruce Boyd
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7/1/2008 6:07:45 AM
That Zerosette archtop is a gorgeous looking instrument TT - how did it play?
(We'll have Vincenzo infected with Instrument Aquisition Disorder by the end of this thread...)
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Beth Fridinger
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7/1/2008 6:48:25 AM
well you can start playing some scales......start with the pentatonic scale and add the blues note. The root 6 pentatonic scale is an easy one to start with, then add the 5th root pentatonic scale, then you can start playing some simple melodies...these scales work with a lot of rock and blues...then the major scale. There is an inbetween scale and some boxes you can learn in the pentatonic also. If you google guitar scales you may be able to find simple diagrams of these scales...learn these scales, and then you can throw in some melodies. It's good to memorize and practice these scales and it will help your fingers. The chords will get you to playing some tunes....work on chord forms and your rhythm, but start scales too!!
Basically 4 fingers will each play one fret.The 6th root pentatonic starts on the 6th fat E string...so to play the pentatonic scale in key of G start on the 3rd fret, as that is the G on the fat E string 3rd fret. Play The G with your index, then 4 frets down on fret 6 use baby finger, then 3rd fret index on 5th string fret 3, then ring finger on fret 5, then index on string 4, fret 3, then ring finger on string 4 fret 5, then index on string 3 fret 3, ring finger on fret 5, then inex finger on string 2, then baby finger on string 2 fret 6, then index on 3rd fret string 1 and then baby finger on string 1 fret 6. It's real easy to memorize and visualize this scale if you see it on a chord chart diagram. then you can add two blue notes to this scale...these scales are good practice to limber up your fingers and get familiar with the fretboard.
When you learn these scales you can play some music and play notes in the scale...I sometimes find the key the song is in by playing the scale real quick...now you can say the notes as you play the scale if you want...but these are repeating patterns on the guitar neck so if you memorize it you can play the scale in any key. Starting at the 5th fret would be the key of A.
You can see this scale diagram at this link...I suggest trying the first one first and memorize it. The root note is on the 6th string which determines the key.
http://www.justinguitar.com/en/SC-002-MinorPentatonicScale.php
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the kozy king
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7/1/2008 7:18:05 AM
Bruce:
The JG was a classic pawn shop prize. Perfect condition, played well etc. You can hear it on the (opening) rhythm part of "Finally Cool" overdriving a small tube amp.
I sold it to Sled Dog guitar store in Winnipeg where it apparently caused quite a stir in the guitar community of that big city before being purchased by Greg G. who replaced the pickup with a custom wound job from somewhere.
Yeah it was a real treasure. But I used the money to take my Garnet Session Master amp to "Gar" Gillies in Winnipeg (to be serviced by its creator who passed away January 2007)
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The Man With No Band
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7/1/2008 7:30:43 AM
Vincenzo ... good on you !
Just watch and copy Larree's VID ... (his fingers are faster than Sammy's brain) ... :)
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Jack Heinicke
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7/1/2008 10:47:56 AM
Are first guitars like first loves?
My first guitar was of an unknown make and it was "appropriated" from a friends closet because in my mind no one was using it and it needed to be used. By me.
It had nylon strings on it but it wasn't a classical guitar. Go figure. But it made it easier to play and thus to learn on. Also someone had tried to make a peace sign on the bottom front (below the bridge) using what I think was friggin oatmeal that had hardened into a crusty mess. A lot of people were attempting better living through chemistry back then so I guess that explains the oat/peace sign. So as you can see that guitar needed to be rescued.
So if first guitars are like first loves then mine was an off-brand with the wrong strings and a feeble attempt at ecological serenity conveyed to all in the vicinity of said guitar.
And I wonder why I'm so messed up.
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