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JOHN FRY
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3/3/2008 5:51:00 PM
The most important topic on Earth. For Musicians.
The all out "rape and thievery" of our music. Who is responsible?, and what can be done about it. The answer is given by Paul McGuinness (U2's manager) This is not only a must read for all people in music. But you must share this with everyone you know. I say we should boycott all award shows. {especially the Grammy's) until this is fix'd once and for all.
To me there is no celebration until this monumental injustice is takin care of.
Go to the website below for all the facts.
http://www.billboard.biz/bbbiz/content_display/industry/e3i062b16e707aa99916c212e660cbffd3e
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The Man With No Band
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3/3/2008 6:12:06 PM
Well John ... I do agree something should change ... but as far as the record companies, I have no sympathy ... they've been screwin' Artist for years ... and they continue to do so ... They have won several cases in court over piracy, amounting to millions of dollars ... and they are not paying the Artist ... (See Data Thieves thread)
... and as far as Radio Head ... I don't think you'll hear them complain one bit about their on-line experiment ... the last I read they averaged about $11 or $12.oo a Cd ... and sold over a million copies....
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JOHN FRY
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3/3/2008 6:44:08 PM
It's a given that the record companies have been stupid. Yes! But it is the Intenet Service Provider that is the one that should be brought in front of Congress McGuinness said, "It is time for ISPs to be real partners. The safe harbours of the 1990s are no longer appropriate, and if ISPs do not cooperate voluntarily there will need to be legislation to require them to cooperate".
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The Man With No Band
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3/3/2008 6:50:33 PM
Well ... I'm all for that ... as long as the pie gets divided properly ... but of course it won't .... the record companies will just reap it in ... so the ISP's are getting rich ... to me that is no worse than the record companies getting rich ... It stinks either way ... The record companies had it made .... now they want to scream to congress for help ... pleeeeeze
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the kozy king
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3/3/2008 7:54:33 PM
First, I don't know about the States or Europe, but in Canada we have the CRTC "policing" all broadcasting. It boils down to who gets the money, and if it's not you then off to jail for trying (I'm talking about TV and Radio here). I've always predicted that the wild frontier of the internet will suffer the same fate eventually. Whether motivated by "ethical" issues or "economic' issues the result will be the same. "We'll take that money and you can drop dead, kozy..."
Second, this guy that manages B4 (sorry U2 ha,ha), obviously likes the money and of course he's working on a way to keep getting it. He can have it.
My musical model is a medieval minstrel traveling from town to town -- entertaining, informing and inspiring -- for which he is rewarded by the REAL people he meets.
Played live Friday night. $1200 (plus $100) bonus between four guys who have real jobs too. Second gig this month. If you want to be a pro musician you're going to have to a lot better than that, but don't hold your breath waiting for the internet to come thru.
Don't hold your breath waiting for the internet to come through. When they start collecting the money it'll be the masters taking it again, not the slaves.
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JOHN FRY
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3/3/2008 8:02:49 PM
The technalogy is here to stop this shit. Again McGuinness said, " ISPs could implement a policy of disconnection in very quick time. Filtering is also feasible. When last June the Belgian courts made a precedent-setting ruling obliging an ISP to remove illegal music from its network, they identified no fewer than 6 technologies which make it possible for this to be done. No more excuses please. ISPs can quickly enough to block pornography when that becomes a public concern."
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The Man With No Band
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3/3/2008 8:30:31 PM
---- Updated 3/3/2008 8:30:31 PM
Don't hold your breath waiting for the internet to come through. When they start collecting the money it'll be the masters taking it again, not the slaves.
That's exactly my point .... the record companies would gladly go in cahoots with the ISP's on a profit sharing deal ... which only cuts deeper into the Artist share ...
Also the record companies thought they had a sweet monopoly going ... they didn't want anyone cutting into their pie ... but now they would be more than willing to "share" because they have lost the Monopoly
Also the record companies have had the benefit of almost limitless free advertising through the use of the internet .... If you start coming down on the internet for everything we will all be in worse shape...
Should I have to pay each time I upload a song to a music site and each time someone downloads one of my tunes ? ... Those are the kind of things you can expect if you start involving the ISP's with the music Business...
John, I may be full of it but I don't see this helping the Artist at all ...
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the kozy king
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3/3/2008 8:42:13 PM
John, I totally appreciate you as a PRO musician trying to make a living and "Dumb" is the one of the best songs I've heard this year.
But I suspect -- these control freaks may be able to "police" the internet on your behalf -- but they'll also make it illegal for me to give my music away for free.
Paranoid? Maybe.
Best of luck to FM. My wife loves "Free Lorraine"
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JOHN FRY
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3/3/2008 9:16:18 PM
Well thank you for those nice comments kk and to your wife. But something has to be done. Some one or something has to be responsible for the billions being made off the artist. If the money could at lease get to the record co. we all stand a better chance of getting a piece of the pie. As it is now it's all locked up behide a giant E-Vault.
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JOHN FRY
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3/3/2008 9:41:25 PM
One last thing. FUJI MINX, the band I am in. Just made our debut CD, which after a year, we are still paying for. This same CD is being sold all over Asia, Russia, Middle East, and America. - BOOTLEGGED!!! We are not recouping any of that. But some f'ing creep on the other side of the world is making $$ off our 15 months of hard work. Some of us don't have day jobs and this is our income. Now this wonderful thing we all hold so dearly called the Internet provider, is allowing these f-ers to put up Websites, unregulated to sell somebody elses hard work. The big bad record companies are yesterday's problem. And with them you still see a contract and you get some percentage AND they cover some costs. And that better than nothing! We appreciate that people enjoy our music and think we are as big as the other albums being bootlegged along with us (i.e. The Foo Fighters, Fergie, etc..), but vanity aside we can't afford to produce product for others to profit by. "Music Sharing" on a one & one basis is called "word of mouth", friends giving another friend a Cd and saying "Check out this band!" is cool. But when it becomes an industry of not only giving away our music by the thousands but then also selling it for higher prices & keeping the proceeds. An industry of Theivery!
In summation, there is technology to stop these people, and that's what should happen.
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The Man With No Band
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3/3/2008 10:14:44 PM
John I respect what you are saying ..... but I think you'll find that the reason that the Record companies don't go after the ISP's is because that E-Vault you speak of is part of the Corporate world that BOTH the ISP's and Record Companies already share... so they Both Own that Vault...
Aol one of the largest Isp's out there is owned by Time-Warner which until recently OWNED Warner Music Group.
Warner Music Group (WMG) is the third-largest of the "big four" major record labels, the others being Sony BMG, EMI, and Universal.
I'll be willing to bet if you go look up the other three Major Record labels that you will find they all have an interest in ISP's ....
So it all boils down to the record companies screwing the Artist all over again ....
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JOHN FRY
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3/3/2008 10:44:59 PM
I could care less if the record companies go after the ISP'S of the world. The record companies are not the LAW. First I want public outrage. Second I want the ISP'S to be humiliated, and shamed for what they allow to happen, and profit off of. And lastly If they don't comply I want stiff fines and licenses revoked.
McGuinness said, it best "If you were publishing a magazine that was advertising stolen cars, processing payments for them and arranging delivery of them you'd expect to get a visit from the police wouldn't you? What's the difference? With a laptop, a broadband account, an MP3 player and a smartphone you can now steal all the content, music, video and literary in the world without any money going to the content owners. On the other hand if you get caught stealing a laptop in the computer store or don't pay your broadband bill there are obvious consequences. You get nicked or you get your access cut off.
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The Man With No Band
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3/3/2008 11:20:21 PM
I understand your frustration ... and believe it or not I am on your side ... I guess you are missing my point...
The ISP's and the Record Companies are the same people ....
... and here is a good example of what happens when a record company owner's family pirates music..
This is the guy that bought Warner Music Group
Will The Recording Industry Sue Edgar Bronfman For Downloading?
from the just-asking dept
Edgar Bronfman Jr., back in 2000 was one of the first record label execs (he headed Seagrams, which at the time owned Universal) to come up with the idea of suing Napster and all its users. Since he was eventually forced out, and later had to buy Warner Music to get back into the business, the idea that he kicked off has certainly taken hold with thousands upon thousands of lawsuits filed by the RIAA. All too often, we've heard about cases where the RIAA would claim that whoever owned the broadband account where file sharing occurred was liable for any infringement. That allowed them to sue parents who had done absolutely nothing wrong, and claim that they were still responsible for the actions of their kids who may have been sharing unauthorized files. Given all that, it's interesting to note that Edgar Bronfman Jr. is now admitting that his kids have been downloading unauthorized content. Well, actually, it's not entirely clear. He says, "I'm fairly certain that they have, and I'm fairly certain that they've suffered the consequences." He then declines to explain what those consequences are -- but we'd assume it doesn't involve huge fines, being told to drop out of school or any other such nastiness that the RIAA reserves for all those other families they're suing. However, if the RIAA really believes that parents are liable for the actions of their kids, and Bronfman has just admitted that his kids have been file sharing, shouldn't they slap one of their famed extortion letters on him? He can certainly afford it. Thanks only to Skype's wealthy founders bailing Kazaa out of a lawsuit by paying $100 million to record labels, Warner Music actually turned a profit last quarter.
Now if you'll go read Data Thieves recent post ... all of these millions that were paid out to the record companies has never reached the Artist ... The Artist are now considering suing the labels to get their money ... and this is not the only suit they have won and are keeping the money in their own little vault...
I'm not saying you are wrong at all... I just don't think that the ISP's are any worse than the labels ... they sleep in the same bed.....
I'll stop cuz I'm not wanting to make you feel any worse ... and you have a right to be angry over getting screwed ... I just think that the Record companies have the money and the power to do something .... Don't you find it a little strange that they do not ? ... There is surely a reason ... I don't think their missing a dime
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The Man With No Band
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3/3/2008 11:21:44 PM
BTW .... Fuji Minx Raaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwwwwks !!!!!
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satch
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3/4/2008 12:07:54 AM
We're with you John, free music is killing the artist.
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Pulse Eternal
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3/4/2008 3:38:45 AM
John, firstly, let me offer two big paws up for Fuji Minx... Meow!! Felines unite!!
I hear your frustration with the current mindset of the general public on music sharing but I also believe that rather than trying to fight it, we should be focussing on new ways of doing things and actually utilising the very technology that is allowing the spread of our music.
It is a simple fact that CD's are no longer a lucrative tool for earning an income. They are easy to convert to mp3's by practically anyone with a computer and then shared with friends and others using the net.
We need to think outside the square and utilise these products as marketing tools to create a fanbase and attract those fans to our shows. There are now many opportunities for expanding our income sources by actually USING the internet and offering (with paid access) live audio and video streams of shows and other material. We can also sell other physical mediums not as easily spreadable on the net (such as BluRay discs which have a very comprehensive copy protection system inbuilt).
Most of the major labels are stuck in the dark ages of trying to make money from CD sales. Fighting the spread of mp3's is a waste of energy that would be MUCH better channelled into being creative with marketing and other tools.
It is now possible to release a product that is as good as or, in many cases, significantly better than any of the control freaks in the major labels are capable of!!
We no longer need mega budgets to record commercial releases. That money would be FAR better spent on promotion and advertising.
Those that are skilled in marketing and smart will see opportunities and make a decent income helping indie artists with their success.
One very clever man by the name of Frank Zappa said, "Once upon a time, a record company had A&R people in it who would take a chance, make a decision, use their gut reaction, sign a group, and see what they could do with it. Okay? That was, whoa, a long time ago. It's not that way anymore. All decisions about who get signed and what happens to the record are made by these drooling little midrange accountants. And everything is based on the numbers games in there. And the taste of the accountants is what is ruling the mass media. It's all just the dollars and cents of exchange. And if you wanna make music that you believe in, the chances of doing it on a major label basis are nil, because they're all so frightened. Everybody's there trying to protect their job. And it's easy-- it's easier to look like a wise executive by saying no to something if it's just the most minutely fringe-oid in terms of content.
No.
The horrible part of it is the artists who are feeding this ecological chain stop making songs they believe in and start making product that they know will be airable. And they change the style of what they're doing to fit within the narrow framework that is the contemporary accepted norm for suitable, radio-sounding music. And anything that comes outside of that norm doesn't go on the air, you don't hear about it, you don't know about it. Right now there's probably hundreds of artists in the United States making great sounds and great music. You'll never hear it. You'll never find out about it."
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Pulse Eternal
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3/4/2008 3:46:11 AM
.....a footnote to Frank....
Fortunately, us indies making the great and diverse music we now are, finally have a platform to become known......and one of those is right here .... IAC!!
It is up to us as artists to bypass all the bullshit of the corporate world and take charge of our own careers by being creative with our endless resources!
Don't fight them.....use them!!
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srm
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3/4/2008 4:08:51 AM
Amen, SP, and thanks for quoting the Z. Even dead, he makes more sense than the corporate music mavens.
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Chris Hance
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3/4/2008 4:26:03 AM
Free music is killing artists
Selling in todays market is nigh on impossible, unless you have big advertising capital/promo expense budget forget it,
Getting into bed with the Sony Sisters is only gonna give you a dose of something which you'll prolly regret, just ask George Michael,
You have to look beyond that which is perceived as the norm, make the new ground, make the new sound,
Already the indie scene is saturated, and clever exploitative individuals and corps are right in there manipulating peoples vanity and greed,
The internet is full of virtual stars, how many of them are shifting product, how many of them are sitting all day typing @ myspace,
Album sales continue to fall,
Here is something, If major labels cant sell, how can indies, why do we want to sell? Is that too vain to answer?
If I pay my ISP $50 per month, is he going to turn round and say Warners asked us to boot you off for downloading?
I dont think so, ISPs are as ruthless as record cos, but just now the ISPs are geting the money,
On sites like these, we are providing free content for advertisers and ISPs to make money off us,
How would stopping music downloads prevent this and steer the money to us?
We have to stop looking backwards in this, stop listening to those who would and have already fleeced us,
I dont care about shifting profit, nothing is further from my mind,
I hate the attitude that says "You're giving away free music and its killing artists",
I have never heard anything so ridiculous in my life.
My dad played seven nights a week all his life, to morons with their brains removed just to put dinner on the table and keep a roof over our heads, He played bullshit covers and hated it too,
To make money, get a job, even if its playing covers,
Or get in a van with the band and pay to play every pub toilet in the land and after a couple of years of that you might have enough fanbase to sell some discs or downloads, but if you are doing pop tunes the shelf life is pretty restrictive ne way unless you are prepared to sit all day churning out sh*te
I dunno the answer John, but I do know that everything that comes out of the music industry is either lies or propaganda or the complaint that they aren't milking us as much as they used to.
All these kids back in the day buying Ramones records thinking "we are sticking it to the man"
No you fools, you're giving it to the man!
But I still firmly believe that my ISP wants me to download more, not less........
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Hugh Hamilton
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3/4/2008 4:29:43 AM
I'll be the complete geek here, I suppose - but the whole piracy thing starts at home, and it's pretty simple - I had a friend hit me up for the Beatle catalog when they got an mp3 player, and they didn't think it odd or negative to essentially ask if they could borrow my CD's. The situation is such that I felt somewhat of a prick for saying NO EFFIN WAY! LOL!! Generally speaking in life and in this case there's something of an honor system in place, and if there ain't no honor then the friggin' law's gonna be laid down and freedom will disappear.
Not a personal statement about you, my friend Mr. Fry - but to myself and everyone - if you're opposed to piracy, don't do it. Be a "nerd" - explain to others why you don't do it. Don't say yes if you're offered some goodies.
I feel like an atheist Moses.
xxoo,
H
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RedRobin
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3/4/2008 5:09:58 AM
....Record companies and ISP's are not there to provide new music, they're there to make money!
Chase The Vision (create your music) and The Dollar will usually follow.
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Pulse Eternal
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3/4/2008 5:19:17 AM
Absolutely RR :-)
A well known affirmation comes to mind here, "Whatever the mind can conceive and believe, can be achieved."
Aim as high as you can imagine. Then you have many more options and FAR greater possibilities :-D
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Chris Hance
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3/4/2008 5:58:01 AM
Heres a thread from an Irish bb on the very topic.
Click To Read Paddys View
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Pulse Eternal
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3/4/2008 6:09:01 AM
Just reading that now Chris....
THIS absolutely ROCKS!!!!
I have Swedish blood and would LOVE to visit one day. I'd probably end up loving the place and investigating moving there..... Then again, I love Australia too :-)
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Bruce Boyd
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3/4/2008 6:16:03 AM
The title for this thread is
"The most important topic on Earth. For Musicians."
and it's about MONEY.
Hmmmmm.
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JOHN FRY
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3/4/2008 6:56:31 AM
What about the dream? Quit your day job and become a "ROCK STAR" o.k. we will do it your way. Let others take our money. (ISP) We stay at our Shit day jobs. and we sleep within our dreams.
Money is not evil. It's a tool. Why do you think it cost $250 for cheep seats to a major rock show. Because of cd sales. Why are Major record co. laying off people. Because of record sales. I understand your not going to stop people coping friends cd's. But we can stop the On line bootleggers
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Pulse Eternal
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3/4/2008 7:13:36 AM
Sorry John but I respectfully disagree with you.
Concerts and other performances ARE the means of removing yourself from a crappy day job and CD sales USED to be a good way to get a fan base.
Now, it is MUCH easier for the artists themselves to make use of CD sales (AND SHARING), online music downloads (free is the fastest way to get known), creating a presence on sites like IAC, creating band websites with a good URL and some creative advertising.
Face it, these days it costs bugger all to record, mix and master a professional album and it also costs bugger all to press commercial CD's. We no longer need (or want in many cases) record companies to do this. That only adds considerable cost and a resigning of a certain amount of control dictated by some crappy cotract.
The sooner artists realise this and see file sharing and free music distribution as promotional tools rather than income streams (yes, they are expenses just like any other business), the sooner they'll take control of their careers and start attracting fans to their performances. THAT is where the income comes from! The more well known and the bigger the shows, the more you make. Simple! Start small, aim higher than you can imagine, learn, adapt and reap the rewards of your efforts!
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Pulse Eternal
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3/4/2008 7:21:48 AM
---- Updated 3/4/2008 7:21:48 AM
Amen Larree!!!
When it comes time to perform those songs, you'll be in control of the music and the gigs and you'll be the one making the income from your live gigs, not some corporate fascist record company dictatorship! :-)
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Hugh Hamilton
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3/4/2008 7:38:13 AM
I think I've sold about $33 worth of downloads in the last year (yes, I'll have the pleasure of balancing that with an enormous investment of gear when I report my doings to the IRS next month!)...the difference here, to me, is not about if people choose or don't choose to give their toonz away...which is reasonable, and in a way we do it here constantly via streaming...the diff is when people STEAL by copying WITHOUT PERMISSION. And fairly few seem to consider it stealing. THAT'S what erodes freedom. If you want freedom you have to assume the responsibilities that go with it. That's a fact, Jack! Come on, if you pull up to the roadside farmer's stand and take a jar of freshly made jelly, do you leave the money in the basket, or laugh at the farmer and his wife for being trusting...?
:)
H
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Pulse Eternal
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3/4/2008 8:00:52 AM
Ha! They're obviously feeling the pinch and about F.U.C.K.ing time!!!
FWIW, I have a day job I love which is also helping me achieve my dreams and I am the boss!! I earn a living working on music (both mine and others) in my studio :-)
If I am approached by a record company about my own music, I'll be dictating the terms and if they don't like them..... well they can go elsewhere! They need us artists now MUCH more than we need them!
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The Man With No Band
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3/4/2008 8:04:45 AM
Hugh...
I don't think there is any dispute that it's wrong to pirate music... What is in dispute here is who's responsible and what should or could be done about it ...
... the same scenario that you used about the farmers jam should be used in all facets of life ... the record companies have operated legally for years ... but very immorally ...
the isp's allow people to reach markets they never could without them...
the isp's allow almost limitless free advertising ...
the isp's allow you to sell music without major distribution cost ...
the isp's allow sites like this to exist so I can enjoy doing what I'm doing right now ...
I agree with what you said earlier about "it start's at home" ... Why blame the ISP's
The internet is the new revolution ... and I'm an old guy that likes old things ... but through the use of the internet I have learned a lot of interesting things, I have been able to share my music all over the world, I have heard Artist that I never would have heard, I've made some acquaintances and in some cases believe that they are actually friends ... the record companies did none of that for me ... and I paid them thousands of dollars through the years...
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the kozy king
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3/4/2008 10:36:11 AM
These contentious blogs are BOSS!!
"A kick in the ass is better than no fight at all!"
TT
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ATOM CRUISE
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3/4/2008 11:48:32 AM
There are many things going on these days in the music business. The most important in my opinion is that there is a growth of the sites on the Internet which pays to their artists from the ad revenue. Whether for streaming or even for downloading the songs. So fans get the music for free and the artists get payed. I believe this is the future of the music in the Internet:
A music player which shows ads, plays music and pays to the artist.
Let's face it: If a product is digital it can be copied and it will be. It is an impotent effort to fight "piracy". C'mon, we live in a copy/paste culture. Instead of copying, nobody can steal the emotion which artist gives to its fans on a live show. So if you are a real artist (not virtual one) then performing live and selling merch is your main income.
Don't worry, nobody is gonna buy a CD anyway. Not from the original artist, not from somebody who have bootlegged it. So why bother to make a CD at all? Too many people listen to the music with mp3 player or mobile phone anyway. If your fans need HiFi make a vinyl.
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Magnetfisch
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3/4/2008 12:05:31 PM
Our guitar player – an internet skeptic - would agree with Kozy Kingz that an artist should tour, “entertaining, informing and inspiring -- for which he is rewarded by the REAL people he meets.”
As far as I am concerned, since I am playing the synthesizers, I am not afraid of keyboards :-) I think that internet’s VIRTUALITY provides an audience never imaginable before. This luckily contradicts Frank Zappa’s (as quoted by SuperPuss above) rather sad conclusion about emerging and undiscovered artists: “You'll never hear it. You'll never find out about it.”
Thus, I am rather optimistic concerning the artistic part and agree with The Man With No Band saying: “I have heard Artist that I never would have heard". Some of these encounters even become REAL (such as our cover of a song by “And Also The Trees” and our contact with them).
Of course, one problem remains unsolved: this shiny odd strange old tool called money… I think each of us has to develop both strategy and instincts in order to deal with it.
Whatever you do, whichever way you choose: rock on, all of you!
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Jo Ellen
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3/4/2008 1:18:52 PM
---- Updated 3/4/2008 1:18:52 PM
I can appreciate the frustration of musicians who work diligently and creatively to produce marketable and quality recordings, and find their "due rewards" exploited or stolen by people or companies that do not deserve these rewards. Unfortunately, I agree that it may have been the trade-off of digital marketing to expand the customer base and product viability while reducing copyright protection and policing capacity. I think the same is true of many things that are digitally marketed (i.e. banking, crediting, and even human relationships- be careful out there).
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Susan Raven
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3/4/2008 1:41:08 PM
We sell CD's. Wherever and whenever we perform, we sell Cd's.
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Steve Ison
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3/4/2008 2:15:13 PM
"The horrible part of it is the artists who are feeding this ecological chain stop making songs they believe in and start making product that they know will be airable. And they change the style of what they're doing to fit within the narrow framework that is the contemporary accepted norm for suitable, radio-sounding music. And anything that comes outside of that norm doesn't go on the air, you don't hear about it, you don't know about it."
Thanks for that Zappa quote Superpuss..
Thats the real disease the way i see it
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Jo Ellen
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3/4/2008 2:23:24 PM
Maybe that's how artists reconcile the problem...Use the music machine to create profits through music they are less invested in, personally...therefore they feel less exploited? I don't know. Just wondering...
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3/4/2008 2:29:06 PM
“Of all tyrannies a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive.” -C.S. Lewis
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RedRobin
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3/4/2008 2:47:03 PM
Jo Ellen, I'm with you up to the "and even human relationships- be careful out there" bit which I don't understand what you mean.
Good point about the practical difficulties of policing, though I'm not suggesting any rip-offs are excusable.
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Jo Ellen
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3/4/2008 2:55:15 PM
Human relatiohsips or the making of them are marketed on matching websites (which make profits from providing a gateway for the exchange of personal information). The information or "connection" is not necessarily valid and persons can be exploited. I was speaking in general terms, but a for instance would be a friend of mine who was almost engaged to a married man she met through a matching website. I am just saying there is always more risk when exchanging information online.
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Chris Hance
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3/4/2008 3:08:45 PM
Paul McGuinesses Arse,
U2 - The Golden Unplugged Album [2008] Download Link
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RedRobin
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3/4/2008 3:21:26 PM
....Ah, now I understand what you meant - Thanks.
To digress a moment (something I'm an expert at!), after my divorce I got fed up of friends suggesting I should go on a 'matching'/dating web site, so I tried it but after a few weeks got fed up because everyone seemed so intent on finding a partner. A rather pretty Russian girl tried to scam me but I sussed her and checked her out to find she was a well known scammer. I'm very happy as I am and love ladies but I don't seek, I just follow my heart and go with the flow. As it happens I've become quite special friends with a Polish lady on MySpace - We are definitely kindred spirits and it's quite spooky at times. We might never meet but we still feel close to each other and my instincts trust her. She's Catholic by the way!! :-). There's so much bad stuff associated with the internet but look at IAC for example - This is a good community.
What's the topic? - Oh yes, music vs money?
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RedRobin
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3/4/2008 3:23:11 PM
....Edit!!!! That last comment of mine was in response to Jo Ellen's last comment. Thanks.
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the kozy king
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3/4/2008 4:06:58 PM
Bottom line for me -- If you can get paid for your efforts John Fry, then bless you however that happens. You deserve it.
And I've already (last week?) related the incident from our second last gig where a young man was boasting about having every Metallica song ever recorded. When I asked if he bought them at iToons all three young fellows laughed (not disparagingly, but quite naturally). Here is a whole generation (late twenties?) well-trained to NEVER buy music.
Sure it's wrong!
I think the only option is to increase the value of your live performances, at this time.
However I sincerely hope a solution is found to get the money to you, not to some pathological petty thief.
TT
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Bruce Boyd
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3/4/2008 7:28:58 PM
I guess I'm coming at this from a slightly different angle - No I haven't had a day job for more than 20 years and no I've never drawn Social Security.
I don't really play in any one band but - you want a bass player to fill in for your blues band, a dulcimer/bouzouki player for that renaissance festival gig, a mandolin for a tunes band dance, backup guitarist for that big singer/songwriter gig.....ask Bruce.
So I guess you'd say I'm a journeyman in a cash economy - do the gig, mebbe sell a few CDs (of that night's band or even my solo stuff) and get cash in hand -simple as that. Stardom it ain't - but then I've never needed a manager, an accountant, a lawyer etc either.
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3/4/2008 8:50:42 PM
This is a complicated issue. What is good for U2 may not necessarily be good for indie artists. Also, enforcing stricter protection scenarios on IP providers may start to affect freedoms in other realms of the internet so be careful what you ask for, you might get it.
I remember myself and a small group of indie artists taking on the rise of the original Napster in 2001, we went over to their community and got in their faces. We couldn't rally many indie artists to help but what I remember most is how the users there to dig in for all the free music told us they didn't really believe in the concept of intellectual property. Attitudes need to be adjusted about this, but I just don't know if it's possible.
There are all kinds of injustices in the music biz. To me it's much more relevant that the cream is not rising to the top and that the mainstream is filled with bland artists with no songwriting abilities than that people might be stealing my music. The problem discussed on this thread really began back when cassette and 8 track recorders came on the market.
As far as boycotting awards, remember, you have to get your nominations in for the Golden Kayaks by this Saturday. :)
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satch
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3/5/2008 12:38:11 AM
There is no reason why to be a working musician should be so difficult, otherthan that too many people do not value the art of being a working musician. Too many people are prepared to give it all away, and too many record companies promoting too much mediocre product really doesn't help either because it just gives people an excuse to justify ripping off product!
I firmly believe that people should be happy to pay for music, be it live, on CD, streaming radio, whatever - making music is WORK for many of us, art and work, no contradiction.
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satch
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3/5/2008 4:19:24 AM
Larree - it's real simple - if you see value in something then you should be happy to pay for it. Some music (ie music I like - personal taste) gives me pleasure, therefore I see value in it, therefore I am happy to pay for it.
This is even more relevant if you expect anyone else to ever pay you for anything - like I see you going on - even jokingly - about how you need people to buy your mp3's....
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RedRobin
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3/5/2008 4:52:17 AM
If someone wants to give away and share their music for free - That's cool.
If someone wants to sell their music to either recoup their costs or make a living - That's cool too.
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HunkaFunk
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3/5/2008 10:32:44 PM
Maybe the answer is that the future, money to be made in Music is in Live performances, and digital music becomes a advertising platform to promote live shows,...once people aren't afraid to go anywhere anymore. The redneck psuedo Chrisian prolitareat has ruined having a good time in america. you can't go and listen to the Live Music in hardly any venues, compared to years ago. Karaoke, Disco, D.J. and over zealous alcohol laws have killed live music. We need to legalize marijuana, and hash, and open "Jam halls" filled with happy Hippies dancing, and having a good time, but still able to ride thier bicycles home. Have we stuck it to the record labels yet?, or do we want to?
Food for thought from my cannabutter riddled brain.
HunkaFunk
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satch
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3/5/2008 11:56:33 PM
Hey hunkafunk - cannabutter is cool!
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