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TNT
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2/5/2008 9:15:31 AM
The American/Brit musical divide?
To carry on from the thread started by Soodonymph.
I think that the Brits ARE finally coming out of our shells.
I'm also glad to believe that this change is reflected in the music of the country.
There has in the past been a great difference between American and British music.
I know I mention him a lot, but Bruce Springsteen is a prime example!
I don't believe for one second that Bruce could have written the music he has (at the times he has) if he were from any other country. It has always seemed that Americans have a far more developed sense of freedom, and that the SEARCH is all important. No matter what is being searched for, the sense that there is something for you waiting just around the corner, always seems to prevail. american lyric writing is just as capable of taking you to a dark place filled with dispair, but generally tends to offer a hope at the same time. I just call it "Rock'n'Roll Faith". whether I am religious or not makes no diffence to this "Faith", as it's still something in which I believe, and believe it has helped me many times, and always gives me a reason to feel good.
It's a very difficult thing to explain, and in my opinion something you'll never understand unless you feel it for yourself.
I think that this change is being felt by more and more Brits as time goes on and it is fundamentally, (along with other factors) changing our outlook on life in a larger way.
I too see more happy faces who are willing to say "hello" to a stranger without fear of being branded a "wierdo".
It's a great thing!
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RedRobin
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2/5/2008 9:52:05 AM
I think it's probably because America is much more multi cultural as people have settled there from other parts of the world.
Britain is only recently becoming more multi cultural, or at least more aware of it.
Whatever problems may result, they are in my opinion outweighed by the advantages.
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The Man With No Band
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2/5/2008 10:02:32 AM
We've been smiling ever since you sent us the BEATLES !!!! ... :)
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Jeff Allen Myers
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2/5/2008 10:08:25 AM
I am with you on that Sam! A sincere thanks to our friends across the Pond!
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Jo Ellen
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2/5/2008 10:55:52 AM
I appreciate the differences in musical/cultural conservatism. I think Americans could probably learn a thing or two outside of television land (sorry :( just being honest) We no longer venture off the couch... except maybe to walk to the recording studio. Ok, I speak in generalities that obviously can't apply to everyone. I say: Play that funky music til you die :)
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Hugh Hamilton
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2/5/2008 11:41:13 AM
Seems to me that the Beatles and Eric Clapton and many others pretty much bridged that divide...and to that I say HALLELUJAH!
:)
H
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Steve Ison
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2/5/2008 2:04:48 PM
I agree there's always been a big difference historically between US and British music,but i'm guessing your point of view is directly linked to your music taste TNT..
MY main inspirations have tended to be British in the main tho,so i've got a different perspective..
Just like Springsteen(great example) could've come from nowhere other than America-Bowie,T.Rex,The Beatles,The Kinks,The Smiths,The Rolling Stones,The Who,Queen and Syd Barrett could've come from nowhere other than the UK..
Qualities in music like whimsy,camp,irony,artifice,mask-wearing,eccentricity and escapism are not readily embraced by US music consumers,who generally-speaking prefer the lyrically literate(tho often musically predictable) straight-talkin' honest realism of artists like Springsteen and musicians fixed firmly in country,folk,blues-Americana traditions..
Alot of British artists-like The Kinks- had to lose their eccentricities and strangeness-individual qualities that made them great imo to succeed in the U.S
For instance i prefer the beautifully whimsical mid 60s, very english Who of 'Pictures of Lily' 'Happy Jack' and I'm A Boy' to their more po-faced,universal stadium-strutting 70s rock..
Likewise,the magical n atmospheric swinging London Stones of 'Ruby Tuesday' 'Have You Seen your Mother Baby?' 'Play With Fire' , 'Lets Spend The Night Together' and 'Lady Jane' would become lost forever to the cock-rockin' U.S arena-filling boogie of 70s Stones...A basic template they use to this day..
The surreal,alien strangeness of Alladinsane and Ziggy didn't give Bowie his huge Stateside success,it was when he changed his style and embraced the more down-to-earth,groove based American soul and R'n'B he found it....
The sensual n sublime pop of T.Rex-all conquering in the UK-just couldn't bridge the atlantic divide..I was reading how Bolan was booed and dismissed by american audiences n critics at concerts.Accused of being pretentious, a faker and a poor musician..
Even the great New York CBGBs bands of the late 70s like Blondie,Talking Heads,The Ramones and Television found success in the UK long before being accepted in their homeland..
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RedRobin
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2/5/2008 2:45:39 PM
....Steve (Ison) - You've described the differences perfectly!
There are some overlaps. I know that they have a different sound but I find something in common between The Beatles and Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young. And yet they are also perhaps the best example of the difference - Equivalents.
Kate Bush and Cyndi Lauper? - Other equivalents?
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Steve Ison
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2/5/2008 3:28:14 PM
The Beatles and Crosby,stills,Nash and Young were totally different i think Red Robin..
I like CSN (and love Buffalo Springfield) ,but their smooth west coast sound,attitude and style is totally rooted in americana folk/country/blues tradition..
Its a million light years away from A Day In The Life or Strawberry Fields or whatever..
The Beatles used masks,played round and adopted countless different roles depending on what track they were doing or what atmosphere they wanted to bring.They loved artifice and playfulness.Creation for the pure joy of creation..
They wern't tied down,had alegiance to or rooted in anything other than their imaginations and borrowed and used any n every style they wanted..
Yeh Kate Bush is another quintessentially British performer..Naturally joyfully eccentric and individual..
I like Cyndi Lauper but Tori Amos (who's often compared to Kate) sounds forced and contrived next to her..
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Steve Ison
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2/5/2008 3:31:03 PM
"Not true about Bowie. I saw the Ziggy tour, and right after that he was fucking HUGE. He jumped from 2,000 seat auditoriums to 20,000 seat arenas on the second tour"
Yeh Larree but Young Americans was the catalyst that ignited mainstream america and made him jump from 2,000 to 20,000-thats what i'm saying
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2/5/2008 5:28:26 PM
I disagree with that. As an American listener, Bowie first came to my attention with the hit single Space Oddity but by Diamond Dogs he was totally huge. I remember when that and Live at the Tower Theater were both very high on album charts and that's prior to Young Americans. Even Aladdin Sane was a pretty big hit as I recall.
I also disagree with some of the other generalizations made. For instance the Stones were big and mentioned in the same breath as the Beatles from Satisfaction on, it's funny to me this idea that at the point they started doing corporate tours, they thus became Americanized. haha
Tommy was huge in America also. At the time Who's Next became super huge, it wasn't because the Who had started making music that was more suitable for American audiences, it was because this was a short time after FM and AOR formats were taking over the scene and Baba O'Reily and Won't Get Fooled Again and later Quadrophenia were perfect for that medium.
I find it humorous the attitudes some Brits have about American listeners. We are as diverse as you are as far as I can tell. Just cause you gave us the Beatles and Sex Pistols is no reason to be so self-important. haha
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JOHN FRY
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2/5/2008 5:53:20 PM
Early American Blues is the start of all we love today.Elvis was the one who took it,shook it and sold it to the rest of the world. Second, Country Western.Rock-a-Billie. American Gospel. England's Youth recognized it first, and made it better i.m.o.. We all read about the Liverpool dock's and how it got it's 45's first.
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TNT
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2/6/2008 9:10:49 AM
Yes there ARE and have been differences which is what I said originally.
My point wasn't that musically different approaches are taken on either side of the water, or that more commercialism is required for either side, but that there have been, and still are (but in my opinion to a much smaller extent) fundamental diffences in the attitude to life in general, between the two, and that this has ON THE WHOLE, been carried accross into the music of the countries.
For me, it's the difference between:-
a) Get in the car, drive.
b) Decide whether you want to go somewhere? - Decide where? - Decide on the best way to travel? - What will you do when you get there? - Are you going alone? - Should you really be going in the first place, I mean, you have responsabilities you know!
Okay okay, I know. Over the top comparison, but I'm sure some of you know what I'm getting at.
Most good artists change over time. Whether it's just to stay current as some of pops finest have, or because over a period of years you change personally.
I've seen my own work grow from putting people in cars with nowhere to go, to getting them out of the car and start figuring out what happened to them in the fifteen to twenty years they were driving.
Musically, most of us will change as music changes generally, but the story and concept content of our material tends to follow a linear path, as does our lives.
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qelizabeth
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2/6/2008 9:51:41 AM
When I started reading Steve Ison's response I thought, 'Yippie, I finally get to DIS-agree with him on something!!'
But then by the end of the post, I realized that he's right.
Sigh.
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Hugh Hamilton
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2/6/2008 10:55:26 AM
haha - Seeing some of the broad comments made on IAC music blogs generally I'm trying to figure out how anybody who knows so much about so many artists' music has ANY TIME to write their own! L O L! My knowledge is so narrow - and I kind of like it that way - only gots me so many brain cells to devote to the cause...still, I'm impressed by the many folks here who obviously have encyclopaedic knowledge...
H
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2/6/2008 11:07:30 AM
well now, but don't you be dissin' the King, bro. He was an amazing talent, was sent here by the aliens just the same as Jimi.
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Stegor
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2/6/2008 11:44:41 AM
Like Hugh I'm impressed, but I'm impressed that people here have time to do all this blogging! I got a bunch of stuff to add here but no time to do it. I hope I can get to it before it slips off the bottom. Get back to work!
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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2/6/2008 1:23:15 PM
As an outsider (neither Yank nor Pom) we got the early stuff from both countries and for a while the music from the 'states was basically copied by the Brits------Dylan /Donavan------- Elvis / Cliff or Tommy Steele? anyway it was the Beatles and the Stones who caught up----- and it's been blow for blow ever since-----
btw didn't Jimi go to Britain to "make it?"
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2/6/2008 2:09:19 PM
Larree, I think you resent Elvis cause he's so good looking and maybe cause he preferred pharmaceuticals to pot. haha
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Chris Hance
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2/6/2008 3:04:36 PM
Plus Elvis is descended from NE Scotland heh!
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Chris Hance
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2/6/2008 3:11:23 PM
Heres the story
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/3559331.stm
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Stegor
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2/6/2008 8:30:52 PM
Whew - I finally have a minute to say something. Nothing earth shattering, just some observations.
Steve is right about Americans avoiding the quirky British music, certainly on the radio. Space Oddity didn't become a hit in America until 1972. Ziggy was in full force by this time, but that album produced no big radio hits, at least in Mid-America where I live. Space Oddity was probably a bit more palatable to American ears at the time so they went with that instead.
Young Americans and Fame were the first huge radio hits he had here.
But it wasn't until the '80's that he became a mega-star, after he had lost his Englishness and hired Stevie Ray Vaughan. It's also when I stopped listening to him ('till recently).
Look at Genesis. They weren't accepted here until the singer stopped wearing masks.
TNT - I listened to your whole page today. You guys sound American! Is that intentional, or is it because your influences are American? Or is it my imagination? I think we (Bat Lenny) sound sorta British, but it's not intentional, it's because we all grew up listening to British bands. Have you listened to Eaglehead here on IAC? They're British but sound so American it's crazy.
Another British phenomenon that didn't translate to America is Status Quo. Aside from the early psych hit Pictures of Matchstick Men I can safely say I have never heard them on the radio. And I've listened to a lot of radio.
Kate Bush makes me melt.
I've always been drawn to Britishness. I think I was supposed to be there. The only American bands I can think of at the moment that I've had a passion for are Talking Heads, Pere Ubu and The Suburbs (my hometown heroes). The thing about all 3 of those bands is that they don't sound American at all. In fact sometimes they don't sound like they're from this planet.
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2/6/2008 8:51:09 PM
What part of America are you from, Stegor? Diamond Dogs was absolutely huge in the city I lived in. That and David Live at the Tower Theater were at the top of all the album charts.
Generalizing about Americans and their supposed issues with British Music seems bizarre to me. I mean look at the Beatles. They really hit the stratosphere DUE TO coming to America imo. :) You don't really make it until you make it here, unless you're some trite act like the Spice Girls. Then the Brits are way ahead of the curve. j/k haha
I looked it up. Space Oddity reached #15 in Billboard charts but not til 73. I'm quite sure it would've been a hit whenever it had a label push but that only happened then. Not the fault of the listeners but of Bowie's label. A pretty big hit, but Young Americans wasn't released til 75 so I was right. :)
http://billboard.com/bbcom/bio/index.jsp?pid=4162
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The Man With No Band
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2/6/2008 10:18:03 PM
"It has always seemed that Americans have a far more developed sense of freedom, and that the SEARCH is all important. No matter what is being searched for, the sense that there is something for you waiting just around the corner, always seems to prevail. American lyric writing is just as capable of taking you to a dark place filled with despair, but generally tends to offer a hope at the same time. I just call it "Rock'n'Roll Faith"."
I have pondered over this for a bit now ... not sure if this is true, and not presuming to speak for all American's ... I'll take a stab at why this could be so ...
One difference might be ...
America is a very large country and fairly young, (as far as countries go) ... Not to many generations ago, most of our ancestors were coming to America in search of better things, and when you think about it, they had to have a lot of faith that things were going to be better for them ... They picked up and left their homes, their homelands, their friends and families, their customs (to a certain degree) and headed to a foreign land, in which many could not even speak the language ...
Where as Great Britain (hope I said that right) is a very old and well established Country ...
Perhaps another difference ...
From our earliest school days they teach you... "You could grow up and be the President of the United States" (not true, but they try to instill that idea in your little head anyway) .. :) (but you can be as dumb as a rock and play sports and make millions of dollars)
Where as over there I doubt they teach you that "you could grow up to be King of England" ?
... and even though you have a prime minister I would think that with the Grand History of your Kings and Queens that Brits would accept a hierarchy more readily ... Over here, we started by telling the King to go stuff himself .. :)
Another would be in our real and fabled "heroes"
King Arthur and Robin Hood are great stories and heroes but it would seem that those were from times very far away ...
Where here we have stories of the pioneers blazing trails, and the cowboys taming the west, and the prospectors finding gold, and all these things happened just a few short generations ago ... Even more recently we were the first to go to the moon ...
I think the SEARCH has been so great here, because it has been passed down from earlier generations, There has always been a new mountain to climb, or a new river to explore, a new mother lode to strike ...
So maybe all of this has something to do with those lyrics you describe ...
(we our running out of frontiers though, so our lyrical style may see a change)
A lot of our music stems from the blues ... and even though the blues are usually about sad circumstances ... if you listen close enough you will hear that the blues is all about holding faith and better things will come ... especially when a little gospel is added to the mix..
We are also a country that loves the underdog and want to believe that the oppressed will win out in the end ...
All that being said we are generally just a bunch of misfits that don't like rules and personally I look at life as one Gigantic Fairy tale, (yeah, there are a few Ogres) ... but It's still all good ... now you'll have to excuse me ... I'm off to have a look around the next corner ... :)
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The CODE
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2/7/2008 3:34:31 AM
We have a unique take on the American/Brit divide in our band!
Drummers from Memphis TN, I'm from Vancouver BC, Bass Player & Guitar II are from the UK!!!
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Stegor
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2/7/2008 6:21:59 AM
In response to Father Time -
You are right! What I'm saying is that it's not American listeners who missed the transatlantic boat, it was the radio programmers and record labels. There are lots of people like us who caught on to the Brits despite a lack of radio play. I remember when David Live came out because I hung out in record stores, not because I heard it on the radio. Diamond Dogs was huge too, but it wasn't because of airplay, at least here in Minnesota. Rebel Rebel was only a minor hit. Jethro Tull's Thick as a Brick was a #1 album in 1972. It sure wasn't played on the radio!
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TNT
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2/7/2008 9:06:38 AM
Sam, you summed up what I was getting at far better than I could have!
My REAL point, was that although maybe America maybe heading more towards the British reserved-ness, the Brit's are heading much more toward the American sense of free spirit.
Music, (especially lyrical story telling music) will usually follow the social trend and feeling. I look forward to us meeting in the middle sometime in the near future!
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