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Hop On Pop
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7/15/2009 2:59:49 PM
What defines a "BAND"?
Coming from an argument started on another board...
I mean, Steely Dan has only 2 guys in the group; 2 constant members.
Are they really a "band"?
The songs are/were pieced together much in the studio. They used mostly hired guns, instead of keeping the performances within the ranks of those 2 members. And the lineup changed, not only from album-to-album, but also from song-to-song. They bring in whoever they feel can add to the song at certain POINTS of the song... A different guitar player will playing the solo and no other part – in each tune. They'll have a different rhythm player playing through the rest of the tune.
And, by the same token:
Is The Millennium a band? I mean, they at least had the same 5 or 6 guys performing every song, but they never played live, and their songs are also pieced together in the studio, with different members contributing piecemeal. There were no live performances.
What do you think?
Where is the line drawn?
To bring it to a personal level: I know that, at this point, I don't consider Hop On Pop a band anymore. (These days, I'm doing the same things that the Dan does.) That's not a band; that's a co-op.
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Bryon Tosoff
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7/15/2009 4:01:05 PM
A band is a working group of musicians whether part or full time
Steely Dan was a project as far as I am concerned
Anybody in a co-op internet thing is not a band
debate
bring it
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Sly Witt
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7/15/2009 4:04:30 PM
Yeh, I think Steely Dan is a band. The 2 core members are what makes them Steely Dan. It's been that way since their first album. I've seen them live with a couple of different variations of 'steely dan backup band'. If either Becker or Fagan were missing, they wouldn't be Steely Dan.
Having said that, I also think that whoever you're playing with at any given time is a 'band'.
Band/Co-op ... what's the difference?
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Bryon Tosoff
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7/15/2009 4:10:25 PM
---- Updated 7/15/2009 4:13:04 PM
Well Slywit
i have to disagree
A band is a group of working musicians playing live for real money not for free, but maybe sometimes and perhaps if it is a volunteer group or something like that
they may or may not have released albums, but most have in this day and age.
They probably practice once in awhile, but most of the good ones don't need to unless they are doing new material. I know a number that lay down there first 2 sets of well rehearsed material at a club or event or casino or whatever pub and then kinda practice experiment in the last set of the night with new material or songs they are putting together for an upcoming cd
To do it over the internet and sending files back and forth without the intent of ever performing live is not a band. It is a project,,,,,it is like saying I am married to that person in Timbuktu and you are in Philadelphia and never laying your hands on the person and getting it on and doing the real thing.....kinda like that
So it is like saying I am married but I never got it consummated
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7/15/2009 4:29:07 PM
---- Updated 7/15/2009 4:31:10 PM
The 'Band' concept was more commonly applied to musical ensembles that included brass and percussion i.e. the traditional Brass Bands. The 'band' name applied more generally to any group of people with a common interest i.e. Robin Hood and his band of Merry Men. So I think however, for whatever and wherever you work together, if this factor applies then you are justifiably a Band.
Musically Brass bands evolved into Jazz bands and 'Big' Bands then Rock Bands and these still retain that label. Other music (especially Pop) that included more than one member (usually 4) were more commonly referred to as 'Groups', gradually these too are now using the Band title.
You can use the terms Solo, Duo, Trio or Collabro without calling yourself a band.
Funny how we still refer to 'Boy Bands' yet often no instruments are harmed in the process.
Of course, at IAC we like to call ourselves "Artists"
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The CODE
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7/15/2009 4:45:54 PM
We call ourselves a Band ;-)
The CODE - MOTM 2009
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Bryon Tosoff
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7/15/2009 4:53:51 PM
Code
that was good
thou are indeed a band
rock on!
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7/15/2009 5:56:45 PM
Jilly and I are a band. We work on music together all the time. We discuss band issues, and we make band decisions.
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Sly Witt
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7/15/2009 5:58:26 PM
---- Updated 7/15/2009 6:02:47 PM
I guess the beatles stopped being a 'band' in 65 when they stopped playing 'live' by Bryon's definition.
I'm often a 'band of one'.... or 'one man band', as they call it. So...I guess the definition is that I'm a band if I get paid to play with myself in public? What!? Yikes....
my opinion... if you think you're a band, then you're a band. If someone else disagrees, so what. Labels are silly.
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Hop On Pop
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7/15/2009 6:08:07 PM
I guess the beatles stopped being a 'band' in 65 when they stopped playing 'live' by Byron's definition.
I don't think that it's quite that simple, or simplistic.
I do think that CAN (or can not) factor into whether or not a collaboration is a band. I do think that there has to be a certain synergy amongst a group of people for a collection of musicians to be considered a "band".
Those who contribute their performances do have to also contribute something to the creation of the music -- the spawning of the music, itself. Not necessarily to the songwriting, per se, but to have a certain degree of input as to how those songs take shape.
It has to be a democratic process to some degree, with consistent members, and not just a dictatorship... commanded by a single leader, telling everyone exactly how to play everything. Or having different people in on different parts of songs, with no consistency in the lineup from song-to-song.
Therefore, by my definition, I think that the Beatles remained a band until The White Album and possibly later. But that point is up for argument.
But Steely Dan? There is no consistency in the lineup (except for Fagen and Becker) after a certain point. So...?
And Coloured Vinyl?
Again, it's up for interpretation, as always.
And, of course, this is all about how you view it.
I like discussions like this, as long as it doesn't get ugly.
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7/15/2009 7:55:20 PM
Good question.
How do you define band?
How do you define chord?
Does it matter?
If I were going to define a band, then it would have to be three or more.
Otherwise two musicians are a Duo, even if they hire session cats.
Black Eyed Peas are great, but they are not a band.
They are entertainers the way Sonny and Cher were. Or Abba.
Was Abba a band?
Elvis had a great band for a while. Backing musicians.
I have no idea but there is some vague meaning in my head. A great band is indestructible.
DEFINITION: A band (to me) should be a self-contained musical unit ... that can play live and tries to play live in the studio.
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7/15/2009 7:56:41 PM
"And Coloured Vinyl?"
You mean, like "Race Records?" or do you mean those red, blue and other coloured records they issued from the 1950s through to the 1980s?
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Bryon Tosoff
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7/15/2009 8:03:59 PM
---- Updated 7/15/2009 8:12:27 PM
I take your suggestions and modify my stance on the band thing Todd and Flametop Fred
Your ideas and and all indeed make a lot of sense, I guess I was trying to justify in my own mind what a band is, was, can be,should be , used to be and all of that
I guess the beatles paid their dues established themselves so well, they just played live in the studio or did over dubs or whatever. The thing is , how many groups, notice I said groups do that now...well maybe a number
The Beatles had it made and things were sure different back then,when you could release an album and get it distributed , get it playlisted throughout the world based upon your reputation,,,
I guess as you stated I made it too simplistic
so, I stand corrected
what the hell do I know anyways
I am not in a band anymore, although I get invited time and again but have no ambition to do it at this time, and probably never will
so I will be ....a ....what ever Sam Cat is........a one man band....with my piano , bloody heavy things
bryon
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Hop On Pop
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7/15/2009 8:06:16 PM
what the hell do I know anyways
Pretty much the same amount as I do... just different.
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Jesse Adams
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7/15/2009 8:36:50 PM
What does it matter?
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Andy Broad
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7/15/2009 8:48:43 PM
hmm so when is a band a band, and when does it become an orchestra?
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Bryon Tosoff
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7/15/2009 9:26:49 PM
Now after much discussion about bands. groups et al we have come to the conclusion that ___________________________________
fill in the blank
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7/15/2009 9:35:33 PM
"hmm so when is a band a band, and when does it become an orchestra? "
I think if you look back at the early 20th Century, and New Orleans in particular, that's when Orchestras made the transition to band.
Orchestra = usually has a conductor
Band = usually no conductor, but has a leader
That seems (loosely) based on the history of jazz coming out of New Orleans and all along the Mississippi - ie, a pretty much AMERICAN MUSIC development.
Conductor-less orchestras didn't really happen much in Europe.
Seems to be (as far as I can tell, but may be wrong) "bands" sprung up in the United States.
Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?
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Bryon Tosoff
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7/15/2009 9:41:18 PM
Ok, what about a Big Band.....like the ones glenn miller had...or the school bands who have combo's of which have up to 6 players or so
Uno
Duo
Trio
Quartet
Quintet
Sex....tet
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7/15/2009 9:45:47 PM
A BIG BAND usually had a conductor, so in a way doesn't that make them hybrid between Band and Orchestra?
I think that is the point ... that "bands" shook up the whole music / gigging thing.
Then small bands got bigger.
Mind you, in a band like Glenn Miller or Benny Goodman, the time keeping by Glen or Benny was more for show .... by then it was the drummer (like Gene Krupa say) that was keeping the time. As we know it.
Band Leader was the guy that might set the tempo, count in the song and indicate the ending.
Hmmmm
Orchestra, I think, implies that everyone is following a score, that the conductor is there to hold it all together. Bands developed more from musicians falling together (particularly in Dixieland).
Dixieland = not always musicians reading music. So no need for a conductor.
Somebody should ask Dr. John ... I bet he would know the history.
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Bryon Tosoff
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7/15/2009 9:50:04 PM
The Dr J is king...say I see you are from Vancouver Fred / I actually added a few of your very cool tunes to some of my stations here at IAC.very recently....
nice work
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Otis and the Professors
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7/15/2009 10:29:01 PM
I'm not sure where I fall in this debate, which is kinda funny since I'm not sure what my "band: is. Like Steely Dan there are really only two of us, but with a bunch of other people that contribute, some regularly, to our recordings, but even then we tend to write their parts (violin, percussion, etc) so I'm not sure if we are a band, but it feels a bit presumptuous to call ourselves a "project".
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Andy Broad
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7/16/2009 1:12:42 AM
@otis
I wouldn't worry too much about presumptiousness, until you start given your compositions opus No.s :-)
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The Man With No Band
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7/16/2009 5:16:13 PM
Interesting reading ....
What is the criteria for being called a band ?
My take ...
A band is something where it takes more than one to make the whole ....
an engagement of sorts ... it does not matter the number of members ... it does not matter the number of instruments ...
It does not matter whether or not live performances are done ... if you are focused and creating together, you are a band, no matter what your methods are or whether or not you are any good ...
Outside of music a man, or woman, is in a band the moment they choose a partner ... the band can grow or change or not but it is still a band ...
The same with a group of friends ... and we are all members of the band of humanity ...
As in music ... there are no rules IMO as to what criteria makes a Band ...
I am The Man With No Band ...
When I came up with the name ... I had no wedding band ... I was on the road away from all my family and friends for several years ... and I played and wrote solo
So I thought the name fit ... But after I found IAC I knew I was in a band ... and when I really thought about it, I now consider myself a band ...
I call on those that have came before ... and when I play along with what I hear, I am a band ...
and since I was born with five guys in my head ... We are a very large band ... and since they are all slightly touched, we are a very large, slightly touched band ... :)
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Sly Witt
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7/16/2009 5:22:30 PM
..what Sam said...
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Bryon Tosoff
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7/16/2009 5:58:20 PM
: -)
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7/16/2009 6:25:01 PM
hey Flametop, you idiot. :)
Coloured Vinyl is the name of my new band with Jilly, the one I sent you an invite to come to our CD release party but since you don't open your emails you didn't know about.
love,
Father Time
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Paul groover
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7/16/2009 8:47:43 PM
A band as i have come to think on it is when there is more than one instrument represented on any recording does not matter if it,s ever been played live. No-one is really interested 99% of the time who actually plays the instrument. It,s what it sounds like that matters
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Bryon Tosoff
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7/16/2009 9:10:07 PM
being drunk
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SILVERWOODSTUDIO
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7/17/2009 1:03:07 AM
drunk as a--??
we call ourselves
----A group----a collective----a family thing---a collaberation
-----a disaster waiting to happen-----a party of fools---- artistic types---arrogant arseholes----abject failures
---but peeps just call us ----a band
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7/17/2009 6:05:06 PM
A good band just feels right to be in, but can also be a pain in the ass.
A good band can fit into one car and roll down the windows when the drummer farts.
An orchestra is probably much, much more of a professional thing with written contracts, unions and lunch breaks.
A band may be professional in nature but vehemently amateur in scope and intention.
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Otis and the Professors
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7/17/2009 9:28:20 PM
At the risk of sounding cliched or overly sentimental, being in a "band" with Otis is basically like a marriage without any physical attraction. We share everything, each have input on every aspect of music and neither is limited to any particular role, although I do write most of the lyrics. Its a relationship like many of you have felt I'm sure, where everything musically just seems to click, there is no real explanation for it, we think and feel the same way when we make music, thats what makes us a band, unless Andy has convinced me to start referring to OatP as a project.
-Drewsus
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The CODE
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7/17/2009 10:19:28 PM
As a 'Band' we just enjoy it all...
Life is short and the solo's are long...
ROCK ON>>>
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Conversation Suicide
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7/18/2009 9:32:32 AM
AMen, Brother COlin...... AND ROCK on with THE CODE y'all.... They've got some KILLER tunes up on this IAC, if ya haven't already given a listen.
TODD: As a lover of Guided by Voices, you've GOT to have GUESSED my view on BAND = If you show up for a few practices, or at LEAST for the GIG.... you're in my damn band. End of story. I suspect I'll be working with 100s of musicians MORE, before I die.
And I'm fine with that.
I will ALWAYS consider Conversation Suicide a band.
We play shows, right? We create ORIGINAL music, right? We PLAY it LIVE right? We've got MERCH & CDs to shove down your throat, RIGHT?
AND we will ROCK you're fuckin' socks off --- WHATEVER Lineup I've got on most any night, guaranteed....
NOW THAT, is a BAND, mutha fucka.
Keeping the same members is only a luxury for those actually making good money in the musician game.
AND MANY of the "SUCCESSFUL" bands, can't keep the same members from SHOW to SHOW, or CD to CD.... and often only have TWO regulars, like Steely Dan, and MANY others...... WHat about THAT fact, eh?
THERE ya go. THOSE are some of the important factors that make YOU and those you work with, a BAND, if you wish to be.
As that famous Rocky Horror picture Show song so emphatically puts it:
"Don't Dream it, Be it...."
just my two quid.
-pHLeGm
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Helen McCall
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7/24/2009 8:15:29 PM
We conside ourselves A Band
I'm Going Home Miss Helen & Abow Jenkins Band
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Tom O'Brien
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7/25/2009 1:11:23 AM
Back in the 70's you were in a "group." A band was something Tommy Dorsey or Glen Miller had. Or a band was the thing you played trombone for in high school.
So when did "groups" become "bands" and will it ever revert? (There's a palindrome in there for those of you who care).
I think you're in a band when you feel like you're making something happen musically with another person or persons that didn't exist when you played the same thing alone in your room. A bunch of pros could play a perfect set together and still not be a band if they're not feeling that. Or you could feel it with just one other. It's about the spirit behind the music.
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Kevin White
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7/25/2009 1:48:50 AM
I'm a one man band. I define myself.
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TNT
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7/26/2009 9:48:27 AM
For me it's quite easy.
It's not just the playing together, it's also the stuff away from the music. Knowing that you've got each others backs.
We play a lot of bike rallies, and I often liken a band to a bike club, where the friendship and togetherness is just as important as what seems to be the focal point, (in our case the music).
When you get this right, the music and performance improves greatly also.
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